Talk:Group (mathematics)
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The axiom of closure:
(Closure) for all a and b in G, a * b belong to G.
is superfluous, by definition of a binary operation. It's worth mentioning that closure follows from the definition, though.
The test of closure in the examples is in fact a test that the described mapping is inded a binary operation.
Any thoughts before I wade on in and make changes?
- I think you should be more precise here. It doesn't follow from the fact that * is a binary operation but that it is a binary operation on G . Is it Ok with everybody if I change that? -- Jan Hidders 08:37, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"This was our first example of a non-abelian group, because the operation o here is not commutative as the table shows. " If the table did show commutativity, would it be symmetrical about the diagonal from top left to bottom right? TimJ 5 Feb 2002
- Yes. The group is abelian if and only if the table is symmetric about the main diagonal. --Zundark, 2002 Feb 5
Could someone put up a good description of Sylow's Theorem?
- See Sylow theorems.
Also, it'd be nice to see a page dedicated to examples of groups.
Nice exercise: Classify all (isomorphism classes of) groups of order <=60. I'd like to see a page on that.
- Do you realise how complicated this is, especially for order 32? Doing order <= 15 might be feasible, however. --Zundark, 2002 Feb 22
- I started it at list of small groups. AxelBoldt
It simply is not true that the translation group is "our first example of a Lie group" (as the article is currently arranged). (Z,+) is also a Lie group; it is simply discrete, or 0 dimensional. 0 dimensional Lie groups (discrete groups) are studied in ordinary group theory rather than Lie theory, but they are still technically Lie groups. Hence the necessity for the adjective "nondiscrete". (If you want to change "nondiscrete" to "nontrivial", then I won't fight that, although I won't advocate it either.) -- Toby, 2002/04/03
Is it common to allow 0-dimensional manifolds? What could possibly be gained by that? Every set is a 0-dimensional manifold. In EDM they don't specify what n is in an n-dimensional manifold, but from their definition of "manifold with boundary" it is clear that they implicitly assume n>0. Furthermore, would you typically find or expect Zp in a list of simple Lie groups? AxelBoldt
- Since the upper half plane of R0 is all of R0, every 0D manifold with boundary is actually a boundaryless manifold. So it is safe to ignore n = 0 in that case. But I certainly hope that EDM allows for n = 1 for manifolds with boundary. In that case, what dimension is the boundary of this manifold with boundary? If you don't believe in 0D manifolds, you'll have to put an annoying "unless n = 1" into your statement of the theorem that the boundary of an nD manifold with boundary is an (n-1)D boundaryless manifold. And that answers your question "What could possibly be gained by that?" -- you gain the rest of the just at night knowing that you don't have to hunt through your theorems for the odd "unless" and "except". This is just one example of my favourite principle in mathematics: Don't ignore the trivial case! The trivial case may seem uninteresting (that's why we call it "trivial"), but if you slight it, then it will come back to haunt you with a thousand paper cuts.
- As for lists of simple Lie groups, I wouldn't expect to find Zp because the classification of simple discrete groups is part of another subject. (The only things that Lie theorists need to classify are simple connected Lie groups.) But I certainly wouldn't ignore that other subject when classifying semisimple Lie groups (unless I were only interested in the connected ones, again). For example, the Lorentz group is not connected and can't be decomposed into connected simple Lie groups. But it is a semidirect product of a discrete group and a connected semisimple Lie group. So it can be decomposed into simple Lie groups, where some of these simple Lie groups are discrete and some are connected. (The only Lie group that is both discrete and connected, of course, is the trivial group, which is too simple to be simple.) Again we see that the trivial dimension cannot be profitably ignored.
- Nobody working on Lie groups is ignorant of their need for the classification of simple discrete groups. But they're so used to the fact that simple Lie groups come in 2 families (the discrete ones and the connected ones) and the fact that only 1 of those families is classified by their own field of mathematics that they naturally consider only their family to be simplie as Lie groups. And this is easy to make rigorously true by redefining the term "simple Lie group". Instead of saying that a simple Lie group is a Lie group that has exactly 2 normal subgroups, say that its normal subgroups fall into exactly 2 dimensions, or that its Lie algebra is simple. (The classification of simple Lie groups, after all, is generally studied on the level of Lie algebras.)
- So to sum up: No, I would not expect to find a discrete group on a list of simple Lie groups. But yes, I would expect to find -- and have found -- semisimple Lie groups in use that have nontrivial discrete normal subgroups, and I would expect the Lie theorists that use them to know and understand this. Lie theorists don't study discrete groups, but they ignore them at their peril, and the latter is true of anyone that would ignore the trivial case.
- -- Toby Bartels
- PS: Could change "nondiscrete" to "connected" as well as "nontrivial", assuming that the trivial group is never discussed above the word, but I think that that gets less at what we want to say. Could also put the word in parentheses to indicate its status as a technicality. -- Toby
I am convinced. Allowing dimension 0 gives a much nicer category of Lie groups. For instance, the kernel of a map between "ordinary" Lie groups may very well end up to be a discrete group. We should probably add this to Lie group. AxelBoldt
- That's probably a better argument than anything that I said. Heh. (Certainly related to what I said but better expressed.) -- Toby
The article contained a characterization of GL(n,R) as consisting of rotations, reflections, dilations of Rn that keep the origin fixed; SL(n,R) was likewise explained as the rotations and reflections. I added those originally, then they were removed and readded. But they are indeed wrong. Even SL(2,R) contains lots of transformation different from rotations and reflections. There are skew transformations like [[1 1] [0 1]], dilations like [[2 0] [0 1/2]], and combinations of these like [[2 1] [0 1/2]]. AxelBoldt, Thursday, May 23, 2002
I put them back because I thought that I saw the error — you didn't specify that the origin was fixed, so affine transformations were included. Of course, the errors were more extensive, so I've now gone over everything more carefully. What we have now should be correct; I hope that you like it. — Toby Bartels, Thursday, May 23, 2002
Axel, you say that there are elements of SO(n) that are not rotations. Did you have an example in mind? I'm 100% certain that this is wrong, and I checked with 2 other mathematical physicists (Miguel and John Baez (http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/) if you want credentials), who agree that I am not having an acid flashback or something. (Heck, it's even called the "rotation group" — which would make a nice name for an article on it.) I'm not sure that I like the description of GL(n) yet, and I'll think about that some more, but in any case, surely we can agree that the rotation group consists precisely of rotations? — Toby Bartels, Tuesday, May 28, 2002
The example I had in mind is reflection at the origin in R4: [[-1 0 0 0] [0 -1 0 0] [0 0 -1 0] [0 0 0 -1]]. Or can that be interpreted as a rotation somehow? I don't even know what a rotation is :-) AxelBoldt, Tuesday, May 28, 2002
When I talked to John, he remarked "How obvious it is depends on how you define a rotation. I define it as an element of SU(n).". Your matrix has infinitesimal generator (say) a := [[0 1 0 0] [−1 0 0 0] [0 0 0 1] [0 0 −1 0]]; we can transform R4 continuously (even smoothly — analytically if you get right down to it ^_^) along the path t → exp(ta); at each stage, globally and infinitesimally, we preserve lengths and angles; at t = π, we reach your matrix. (Of course, there are all kinds of curvier paths that we could take, but I think that this is a minimal geodesic, so it must ^_^ be best.) This seems intuitively like a rotation to me. (And this talk of preserving lengths and angles isn't entirely begging the question — we get orientation preserving for free. The same thing shows why only the proper orthochronous part of SO(3,1) is the Lorentz group of rotations on Minkowski spacetime.) I don't know whether or not this cuts it as an intuitive argument, but I'm still certain that both mathematicians and physicists would count your matrix as a rotation — and who besides them ever thinks about rotations in R4 anyway? -- Toby Bartels, Friday, June 7, 2002
I like this notion of rotation. I had some muddy image in mind where you stake a line through the space and then rotate around that line, but this is a lot cleaner. I will officially give up my resistance to the term "rotation" and retract everything I said before. AxelBoldt, Friday, June 7, 2002
- Ah, but in 4D a rotation is about a plane... :) BTW, has anyone written about Jean-Pierre Petit? He does great vulgarization of maths in comic book form, his book on topology (which covers Klein bottles & Boy's surface etc) has a preface which recommends readers have a packet of aspirins & a glass of water to hand... same applies here I think ;) Tarquin
And in 2D, a rotation is about a point. Also, in 4D, a rotation need not be about a single plane (Axel's −1 is an example of such) but may instead be around a sort of linear combination of planes. This is related to the fact that not every 2form in 4D can be factored as a wedge product of 1forms.
In general, the direction of the "axis" of a rotation in nD can be described by an (n−2)form, specified up to a scalar multiple. This (n−2)form is another way of looking at the infinitesimal generator of a rotation. You can see how the infinitesimal generator that I gave for Axel's rotation is a linear combination of 2 blocks, which correrspond to 2 factorable 2-forms and hence 2 planes. The rotation is about both of those planes simultaneously. -- Toby Bartels, Sunday, June 9, 2002
So it is true that any element of SO(n) is a product of rotations about n-2 dimensional hyperplanes? AxelBoldt
I'm pretty sure that that's true. If it isn't, then the analogy between axes of rotation and 2forms doesn't work like I think that it does (but perhaps that's exactly what you're getting at). I can check it out if you want. — Toby Bartels, Tuesday, June 11, 2002
I'm not trying to get at anything, just trying to learn. I believe it is true myself, using the real version of the spectral theorem, which says that to every element A of SO(n) there's an orthogonal S such that SASt is a matrix with blocks of the form [[cos x -sin x] [sin x cos x]] (and a couple of ones) on the main diagonal. The blocks probably correspond to the hyperplane rotations. AxelBoldt, Tuesday, June 11, 2002
That sounds about right to me. — Toby Bartels, Tuesday, June 11, 2002
This page has gone back and forth multiple times on the reformatting of "Examples and counterexamples". Some thoughts:
First, mathematically speaking, the integers, under multiplication, is not a "counterexample" of a group; it is simply not an example of a group. (Nor is the set of all long-haired dogs a "counterexample" of a group). So we could change that to "Examples (and non-examples)". But that seems silly; we don't generally explicitly provide "non-examples" as part of other articles in the Wikipedia World of Mathematics, except in passing.
- This is simply not true. It's always important to provide examples of what something is not as well as what something is. I've written a lot of material on various kinds of topological spaces (you can find most of them linked from Separation axiom), and I always include nonexamples, as Axel can attest. I agree with you that "counterexample" is not the right word, however.
- Sheepish withdrawl of previous statement; but although I agree that we want to have "non-examples" from a pedagogical view, I find the terminology a bit clumsy here. One thing I note by looking through the examples that you cite is that, although we can talk about non-normal spaces and non-paracompact spaces, etc., we don't talk about topological non-spaces; similarly, although we talk about abelian groups and non-abelian groups, solvalable and non-solvable groups, etc., we don't talk about non-groups.
- Personally, I find it better to think about an example of something that is not a group (in this case in the context of integers), then it is to think of a non-example of a group, or a counterexample of a group.
- All this aside, I think the whole article looks much, much better now - and if you still feel strongly, feel free to change it back to "examples and non-examples"; I've made my last edit on that topic. Cheers Chas zzz brown 02:29 Nov 4, 2002 (UTC)
Secondly, some of these examples (Symmetry in particular) are quite long and wordy; and others (free group) are described in separate articles and at any rate are somewhat unsuitable as part of an introduction; if you don't know that the reals form a group under addition, you're unlikely to grasp the concept of a free group as an "example" of a group.
- You definitely have a point here. The article as it stands is unwieldy, and this is part of the reason. We should have some simple examples and nonexamples in the article to reinforce the definition, then move the rest to Examples of groups or some such thing.
Thirdly, I think that, as an introduction to group concepts (which really are fundamental!), we want the article to give give the reader the following information:
- A good general feeling of what constitutes a group
- Enough examples to show that groups are indeed "fundamental" in the sense that an understanding of them progvides insight into many other mathematical structures.
- Some feeling of the historical development of group theory.
- Applications of group theory with links to more info.
- Some fundamental properties of groups that act as a launch pad to link to other info.
- groups as a subset of abstract algebra as a subset of homological algebra as a subset of category theory (generalizations)
- Some of this belongs on Group theory, but you have some good ideas. The page definitely needs to be redesigned.
Right now, it seems like the formatting issue of proceeding with a series of examples, with everything else thrown in at the end, is keeping the article from being as useful as it could be; at the minimum, I'm changing "Examples and Counterexamples" to "Examples". Any thoughts? Chas zzz brown 20:51 Nov 2, 2002 (UTC)
- — Toby 15:13 Nov 3, 2002 (UTC)
How about if we move (most of) the examples out of the way and put them on Examples of groups? AxelBoldt 21:59 Nov 2, 2002 (UTC)
The article is growing too long. Should rewrite it. I will try to mimic the style as in topology, topology glossary and topological space. Wshun
I'm wondering whether someone more familiar with this material could revise the beginning of this article. Saying that the concept of "group" is fundamental to modern algebra says nothing about what it is. Admittedly we don't need to go far in the article before we encounter basic definitions, but these will be of no help to a person who has difficulty following these very elementary mathematical expressions. I got here when I tried to deal with the word "Abelian" in Wiktionary. Although it is very easy to deal with the concept of Abelian group once a person knows what a group is, getting from set to group has not been made so obvious. ☮ Eclecticology 20:36, 2003 Sep 8 (UTC)
You're basically correct; however, this is about the hardest part to write in an article of this sort. I certainly don't have a good idea of how to write a helpful introduction. But you are right that we could use one! -- Toby Bartels 14:00, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- Hope this helps -- Daran 17:00, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Proofs
I think it could be potentially useful to include proofs in the Wikipedia of many of the simple (and more complicated) theorems listed here. However, I feel at a loss for how to format such an endeavor. It's silly to create a page for a trivial theorem, and it disturbs the flow too much to insert it into this page. Perhaps a page should be made containing proofs of a series of simple related theorems? This seems to defeat searching and indexing in some respects. What are your thoughts?
Nonempty
Aren't groups supposed to be nonempty? This isn't a ridiculous question to ask. For instance, if the empty set is considered a group, then the trivial group is no longer an initial object in the category of all groups, and it seems intuitively clear that the trivial group should be both terminal AND initial. A similar thing does not happen in category of top spaces with continuous maps, though, since here, the singleton space is not an initial object to begin with. Revolver 23:03, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- groups are automatically non-empty since they must contain e, the identity element. MarSch 17:50, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)