Talk:Genocide

Previous discussions of this topic can be found here:

Talk:Genocide/Old
Talk:Genocide/Archive 2
Talk:Genocide/Archive 3

Cleaned up this Talk page

Hi folks,

We previously had the entire article content (out of date) cut-and-pasted at the top of this Talk page, for no real reason I could determine, and it made this page very hard to use. I removed it. I skimmed through looking for embedded actual comments in the article content and it didn't seem to me like anybody had entered any that way, but it's possible I might have missed something. If I have deleted anybody's comments, it was not intentional.

I also added headings and fixed heading levels so that the table of contents for the Talk page now works and is even somewhat useful. I did the best I could to think up neutral headings where there weren't any before. Hope it all helps. Bsktcase 20:12, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Genocide vs. Ethnocide

I removed Jehovah's Witnesses from the piece on the Holocaust. Yes, they were targeted as a group and 5,000 Witnesses died. However, they did not constitute an ethnic group, and unlike any other group persecuted by the Nazis, all they had to do was to sign a form stating that they renounce their beliefs and they would be freed from the concentration camps. The vast majority did not, although a handful did. In other words, they were not targeted as an ethnic group for extermination. Once again, the definition is important. Danny

But they surely constituted a religious group, and as such a cultural group? Also, murder is not required for genocide, just the intent to destroy a specific group by whatever means. This would fit the definition then. AxelBoldt 00:48 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

I think a distinction should be made here between genocide and cultural genocide. And yes, genocide is killing. Danny

Anthropologists distinguish between "genocide" (killing people) and "ethnocide" (killing a culture). But frankly, I am not sure how much weight this article ought to give to this anthropological distinction (which Danny seems to share). Article II of the UN's Convention on Punishment and Prevention of Genocide (UN GOAR Res. 260A (III) 9) defines genecide as not only "killing members of a group;" it includes causing "serious ... mental harm," and "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group" (which is not murder but which does cut off the transmission of culture). So according to international law, genocide is not just killing. Slrubenstein

Genocide vs. ethnic cleansing (Highland Clearances)

I removed

English Genocide in Scotland

Genocide in the Highland Clearances:

The Highland Clearances occurred when the Jacobite rebellion failed in the 18th Century, and the traditional Clan system in Scotland subsequently broke up.

English landlords, in partnership with ex-clan chiefs, 'encouraged', sometimes forcibly, the population to move off the land, which was then given over to sheep farming. The people were accommodated in poor crofts or small farms in coastal areas where the farming or fishing could not sustain the communities, or directly put on emigration ships. Together with a failure of the potato crop in the early 19th Century, this policy resulted in starvation, deaths, and a secondary clearance, when Scots either migrated voluntarily or were forcibly evicted, many to emigrate, to join the British army, or to join the growing urban cities in Lowland Scotland. In many areas there were small and large scale massacres and violence towards the indigenous people.

In modern times this would be known as Ethnic Cleansing, or genocide.

I do not think this is NPOV and submit if this is genocide then every "restructuring" or revolution for economic reasons is genocide. There is no doubt that the Clearances were inhuman and despicable. From my understanding the crofters were cleared off the land to make room for sheep, as they were more profitable. It was not an English conspiracy against Scots, but an example of greed winning over compassion. The landlords were not all English and the so-called "clan chiefs" and Scottish landlords were as venal as their English counterparts. As for it being "ethnic cleansing" - that is also unsupported. Tiles 01:02, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thanks Tiles for pointing out the NPOV tendencies of what I had written. I have rewritten it, and cut it back, providing a reference also, hope this seems ok now. TonyClarke 15:33, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Much more NPOV. I've been re-reading Prebble, Highland Clearances and have amended your note to reflect the gap between the Battle of Culloden and the introduction of the Cheviot sheep to the glens. I'm more inclined to your idea that ethnic cleansing was at work. Tiles 04:55, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Distant history

I'm not too happy about including things that happened a long time ago under the heading of "genocide". Humanity's moral standards have been changing (improving?) all the time - e.g. at the time of the Greeks, slavery was widely accepted. So I think it's a mistake to apply today's standards in many historical cases.

E.g. take the case of listing some of the heinous things done by the European settlers, in the wars between the settlers and Native Americans, as genocide. Sounds like a good case to some, no doubt - but then go back and look at the definition of genocide and you see:

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:"

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

and you suddenly realize that i) the definition doesn't require success, merely intent to destroy .. in part, and ii) in that case, all of those I listed can equally be applied against Native Americans for their acts against European settlers. (It was 'e' that first caught my eye, as that's something that was reported as happening in a number of cases.)

So if people are trying to joust for the moral high ground, this isn't the way to do it. In this case, I think the self-evident facts (Native Americans are a small minority in most parts of North American, and most of the land is now owned by later immigrants and their descendants) speak for themselves, and the argument about who was and wasn't committing genocide just take people down into a rathole that's a source of anything but enlightenment.

So, I would be really wary of listing any cases that happened before this century. Attempting to wipe out the "other guys" was a common thing in warfare in the past, not the extraordinary event it is today. Noel 17:46, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Err, what? Are you attempting to argue that Native people attempted genocide against the European settlers? I think that's bollocks. Acts of aggression do not constitute genocide. Systematic policies of extermination, ethnic transfer and cultural destruction do. I can't see how you can possibly argue that the term could be applied in both directions. Graft 18:03, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hey, I'm merely quoting from the definition. Are you saying Europeean settlers weren't on occasion targetted simply because of their membership in an "ethnical, racial .. group"? According to the definition in the article (which says, again, intent to destroy .. in part), then that counts.

But you seem to be missing my real point, which is not that the European settlers didn't trash the Native Americans (they did), but that it's better to focus on the facts of what happened, and not argue about which labels apply.

If that's problematic here, which I'm using as an example, imagine what's going to happen when people start trying to apply this label in the Middle East..... Noel 18:33, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

PS: Here's a hard, bright line we should (IMO) follow. Don't list anything here as genocide unless an appropriate international court has found that that is what has happened. Otherwise we're simply going to be forever hassling about whether target group X's case counts as genocide, or just "ethnic cleansing", or whatever the next stage down is. Noel 18:47, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's simply impossible because there were case of genocide before there was international court to judge this cases. But I mostly agree with you. I think we should list fact that are compliant with legal definition of genocide.

Ericd 13:18, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I agree there are recent cases that really would qualify as genocide, but which an appropriate international court hasn't ruled to be such, and it does seem wrong to leave them out.

On the other hand, think about the can of worms that could open: how far back do you go before you stop? 1900? 1850? 1800? Etc, etc. Pretty soon you're so far back you're in a different moral climate altogether. E.g., to use a somewhat silly example, does what the Romans did to Carthage count as genocide?

That's why I proposed the standard I did. It may not be perfect, or even very good, but it does have the advantage of being a very simple, clear, easy test. Noel 17:31, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It's not impossible that the Roman comitted genocide in Carthage. It also clear that the original plan of the Romans was not to exterminate the inhabitans but to get rid of the city. I've recently read an article about the possible existence of prehistoric genocides. I have added the Albigensian Crusade because even at the time they were some moral repprobation reported.

Ericd 17:59, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Some anecdotal comments on the idea that genocide can only be defined as such if it was brought before an international court: In 1919, Britain pressured the Ottoman government to try former Ottoman officials for war crimes, including the indiscriminate slaughter of about 1 million Armenians--a clear case of genocide. Unfortunately, the acts of genocide were lumped together with the mistreatment of British POWs during WWI. There was a nationalist backlash in Turkey, then in the throes of a revolution, and Ataturk's troops took a group of British prisoners hostage, offering to exchange them for the imprisoned Ottoman leaders. Britain succumbed and there was no prosecution for participating in the Armenian genocide (see Stay the Hand of Vengeance: The Politics of War Crimes Tribunals by Gary Bass, pp. 106-107). Obviously, this does not eliminate the charge of genocide. It simply proves that in this instance, realpolitik took priority. In other words, apart the standard critique that war crime tribunals are really instances of "victor's justice" (not a critique that I necessarily adhere to, BTW), there are external factors that can and will influence their outcomes. That being the case, the presence (or lack thereof) of such tribunals should not be used to define whether a particular act was genocide or not. Danny 23:31, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I didn't say that genocide can only be defined as such if it was brought before an international court. In fact, I explicitly said there are recent cases that really would qualify as genocide, but which an appropriate international court hasn't ruled to be such.

My suggestion simply was that when it comes to listing genocide events in the article, then to avoid getting into endless debates over whether historical event X counts as genocide or not, that we use the "an international court said it was" standard.

Sure, if you decide to skip that, and instead look at each case yourself, then some cases will be pretty clear cut - but others won't be. I can just see the endless debates over whether event Y was genocide, ethnic cleansing, "ordinary" war crimes, or whatever (including "a reasonable policy response".

In other words, when the Israeli and Palestinian sides show up and start editing and counter-editing the list to claim that what A is doing to B is genocide, I'm going to leave it to you to referee. Noel 02:42, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

No ways! Looking at the scathing attacks whites in South-Africa gets in the historic context for Apartheid and conveniently forgetting why Americans (the European ones, why do people not refer to white americans as European Americans as in African American?) do not have the political "problems" of an indigenous majority population is ridiculous! White South-Africans despite apartheid can be proud that their ancestors did not resort to the barbarous acts of their White American counterparts! Renier Maritz

Redundant pages

Why is there a page entitled Genocide and another entitled Genocides? Rickyrab 22:33, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Why no article on the mass murder of Muslims?

There is an article on Persection of Christians, Anti-Semitism and on Homophobia, but what about the killing of Muslims? Worldwide, millions of Muslims have been murdered in the past few decades, by people such as Saddam Hussein, Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, etc? RK 00:39, Oct 21, 2003 (UTC)

The National Islamic Front in Sudan has killed largely Christians and animists, but also hundreds of thousands of Muslims, especially among the Beja, Fur, Massaleit, Tama, and Nuba peoples. Its militias have also taken Muslim slaves.

The Armed Islamic Group in Algeria has murdered more than 100,000 Muslims in the last decade. In Chechnya, another 100,000 people, one-10th of the population, has been killed and almost half the population is displaced. In Afghanistan, the Taliban and their Al Qaeda allies killed thousands of Shia. In Mauritania, tens of thousand of Muslims are held as slaves. Tens of thousands more died in the Kashmir conflict and in the civil wars in Liberia, Ivory Coast, and Sierra Leone. Thousands more have died in Nigeria and Indonesia. The Burmese junta drove out more than a quarter million of its Rohingya Muslims in the early 1990s. In India last year some 2,000 Muslims were slaughtered in Gujarat, some disemboweled or burned alive while police stood by or joined in.

Yet these events are passed over in silence, even within much of the Muslim world. Meanwhile, the perpetrators of many of these atrocities sit in the UN condemning events in the West Bank.

World silence over slain Muslims - from Boston.Com (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/10/13/world_silence_over_slain_muslims/)

I have copied the above to: Persecution of Muslims. Modify it please. wshun 05:51, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Re: LibertarianAnarchist's edits

First off, I don't see the basis for removing the Gujarat riots, other than perhaps the small scale. I also don't know what was "factually inaccurate" about the information there. But as for the new material, nothing in the "Poland" entry refers to a genocide at all; it's merely a condemnation of that country, with perhaps some allusion to the Nazi genocide already listed. Plus, it's horribly POV, and says "considered by Jews" instead of "... by some Jews". I'd like some justification for this change, otherwise I'm tempted to just revert it. -- VV 01:29, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I removed the following hyper-BS:

Poland is considered by Jews to be the country where the degree of anti-semitism is the highest in the world. Even during Hitler's purge of Jews, the level of hatred of jews among the common people was higher in Poland than anywhere else. See Anti-Semitism in Poland. Despite the efforts of human rights organizations, it has been difficult to change the thinking of the public.

First of all, this is an article about genocide, not common perceptions of Jews among Poles today. "Considered by Jews"? What the f... does that mean? I am Jewish, yet I do not consider it such. Did they take some poll among Jews that I missed? Also, "Despite the efforts of human rights organizations" (which?) "it has been difficult to change the thinking of the public" (evidence?). The staement is absolutely meaningless. Even if it had been difficult, as is claimed, does that mean there has been no success? Now, for the person that actually added this drivel, I advise them to do a bit of research and write an article about Jan Karski or ZEGOTA. a very annoyed Danny

To Danny

Danny,

I am sorry about the incomplete information. I intended to use it as a stub and post the information about the genocide of Jedwabne's jews by the Polish, but you seem to have updated it before I could fish out suitable links.

On Gujarat, it was not a genocide, it was rioting in the same sense as the riots in Los Angeles and Cincinnatti.

Please follow the contributions of use Boud and you will find that he has been posting stuff which is nothing but Communist propaganda all over the place. I feel frustrated because my aim is to focus on dissemination of information. For some strange reason he seems to hate India and has gone around Wikipedia posting inflammatory stuff. Even when it is pointed out, he won't behave and he comes up with "X alleges... Y alleges..." which is nothing but POV.

I do have data from my Jewish friends from Belarus and Ukraine who told me about the perception of Poles being the #1 anti-semites, but hey, if you feel it is a POV, just point it out to me. I am fair-minded. I'd like to see a high quality encyclopedia.

It is definitely POV. As for Jedwabne--and I don't mean to diss Eliach--it is also somewhat controversial as to what exactly happened. Kielce would be a better example, but I would classify that more as a pogrom than as genocide. Similarly, would Kishinev (1903) be considered "genocide"? One has to be very careful here and use a specific, universally accepted definition, lest this entire page deteriorate into an account of hyperbolic charges by rival ethnicities, no matter how brutal the end results may have been. As for Gujarat, I know absolutely nothing about it, so I can't really give an opinion one way or the other. Danny 10:44, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

New version of Poland entry

Once again, I am tempted to just revert, but want to hear what others say. This does not seem to reach the level of a genocide, and the writing is ridiculous: "by the Polish people" (!). And as Danny mentions, what even happened is controversial. I really feel this is out of place here. -- VV 05:48, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'd say just remove it, too small to be a genocide by most definitions. Maybe there is a more relevant page where both sides of this event or a NPOV version of this (if it exists) can be written. Maximus Rex 06:10, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Indeed, the scale of both Kielce and Jedwabne seems to small when compare to other examples. Both could be included as pogroms (which they were) or political assassinations (as both were apparently inspired due to political reasons), but genocide they were not. Moreover, the common belief that the Poles=anti-semites should not be included in the wikipedia as it's not a fact but a stereotype (I'm a Polish Jew myself). NPOV is the key here.

Halibutt 15:20, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Soviet Union

This is moved to talk. It was questioned by communst propaganda. Soviet Union

Ukrainians - Claims of 5 million civilians starved to death for refusing to cooperate with "collective farming" rules.

Some argue that genocide took the form of man-made famines in 1932-33, particularly in Ukraine. Collectivization led to a drop in the already low productivity of Russian farming, which did not regain the NEP level until 1940, or allowing for the further disasters of World War II, 1950. These statistics, and the actual existence of these famines is debated though. Some argue that the famines were generally a hoax. That collectivization was not responsible for millions of deaths and the actual number of people who died of starvation was much lower and due to other causes. The 1932 dust bowl crisis which occurred not only in the USA, but also in India and the USSR, is commonly cited as one explanation.

It is POV. The only NPOV is information about the dispute and what exactly is disputed.

Polish minority in Soviet Union,Crimean Tatars, Don Cossacks, Chechens, Volga Germans, Kalmyks, Meskhetians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Orthodox priests

Some have claimed that Stalin was planning a purge of elite Jews following the so-called "Doctor's Plot". These claims, though well publicized, have never been proven.

It was planned genocid.

Note: Many historians dismiss reports of Soviet genocide, as in Ukraine, as anti-soviet propaganda. Some historians have argued that the millions of civilian killings done by the Soviet government should not be called "genocide" since the motivation for the murders is outside of the legal definition of genocide. No ethnic groups or classes, they argue, were targeted in particular. Sometimes the term politicide is instead used to describe targeted Soviet killings of particular ideological and political groups.

Fight over the definition

Some people use genocide to include government suppression of political opposition: like Stalin starving to death the Ukrainian kulaks, or Mao killing between 20 million and 60 million Chineses.

Others say that politics has nothing to do with "genocide" and keep reverting the article to suppress any mention of the connection. Some of these contributors insist that "the dictionary proves we are right". Ironically, the last time this argument was inserted into the article, the dictionary cited specifically mentioned "political groups" in the definition. So what's up?

Are contributors engaging in censorship, or did they just read the definition hastily?

Let's not fight over words. Some people use genocide in a political context; others scrupulously avoid using it that way. Wikipedia should report the FACT that both usages exist. It should even report that certain groups or countries oppose the Political Usage of the term; and even try to say WHY they oppose it, if possible. --Uncle Ed 16:23, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I can't believe that this battle with Ed over definition has been going on for a year and half. Perhaps Ed you could summarize your previous comments since some of them seem to contradict each other. Rmhermen 22:10, Feb 11, 2004 (UTC)

The only contradiction I'm aware of is the assertion that leaving out political killings is closer to the Merriam-Webster definition, which specifically includes political killings. I wonder if the text of the article should point out this contradiction.

I'm not asserting anything. I'm only reporting that college professors who have published books are saying things. This is the same as the global warming thing.

One of us, perhaps, has a fundamental disagreement with NPOV. (It's just barely possible that it's an honest misunderstanding, but that doesn't seem likely does it?) --Uncle Ed 16:02, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ed, you will note that the last time I edited anything in regard to the definition of genocide or comment on that subject on the talk page was October 22 of 2002. Certainly not an edit war. Your comment from Aug of that year begins: "Okay, the popular usage is mistaken," and you will note that you added the international definition to the article (although I restored it when you briefly started a separate page about the definition of genocide). So you can see how I confused your position. Perhaps as when you worked through global warming, you could add some sources which use it in your fashion. By the way, I have only one problem with the current version (15:57, Feb 12, 2004). I would like something more authoritative than Merriam-Webster. Rmhermen 17:07, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for your conciliatory and decidedly non-inflammatory note. I was only kidding when I said You want a fight? You got one. Sorry for making such a fuss, RM.

Stipulating that the popular usage of genocide is wrong, i.e., that people shouldn't use it to describe political killings -- then I suggest we move most of the political mass murders from genocide to mass murder or just lump them all under the neolgism democide. You pick.

Or, if we don't need to resolve the quibble over the usage of genocide, let's revise the genocide article so that each episode is properly classified. The non-political ones should keep the "genocide" label, but the political ones as in Stalinist USSR or Maoist China should have a blurb or disclaimer that says something like:

Scholars are divided over whether to call this episode "genocide", since the motive was not to exterminate a group based on its ethnic or religious characteristics but to suppress political or economic rebellion.

I'm not proposing this specific wording -- just saying that if we don't resolve the definition thing at the top of the article, we'll have to deal with it on an episode by episode basis.

Best regards,
Uncle Ed 17:45, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[Mainly for Ed Poor:] Yes, you're right that M-W mentions "political group", but you misunderstood my original point, which was that M-W and others do not generally mention anything like what you were proposing as the extended meaning (something along the lines of government-instigated massacres of incredibly large numbers of people). Also, please note that "the massacre of a political group" is not the same thing as a "politically-inspired massacre". For example, it may well have been that the attempted genocide of the Hereros was in some sense "politically-inspired". Peak 06:21, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have been trying to follow this discussion, and I have an observation and a suggestion to make. My observation is that there are two different issues: how to define genocide, and what examples should be provided in the article. My suggestion is to deal with each of these issues in line with our NPOV policy, and the nature of an encyclopedia. Specifically, the article should provide definitions the usage of which can be documented. I'd avoid a dictionary definition personally, because wikipedia is not a dictionary and because dictionaries, like encyclopedia articles, are tertiary sources -- in effect, to use a dictionary definition would be like relying on someone else to do our work. But I know I am in the minority among Wikipedians with my attitude towards using dictionary definitions. In any event, I think there are three groups of people who talk about genocide a lot, and on whom we should rely for definitions: international and human rights jurists; journalists; and scholars who have studied genocide (primarily but not exclusively historians). I think that the contributors have been trying to do just this (so I hope I am not coming off as patronizing) -- but I think contributors have not been applying the same criterion to selecting examples of genocide. It seems to me (but maybe I am wrong) that contributors have started with a definition of genocidee and have then sought examples that the contributors think are consistent with the definition. And I think here we get into problems, because Wikipedia is not a place for original research and should not reflect the POVs of its contributors. My suggestion is to use the same criteria we use for selecting definitions: look to significant groups of people who actually use the term. In other words, rather than propose examples of genocide, present examples of what other people -- especially international and human rights jurists, journalists, and historians -- have presented as examples of genocide. For example, it is not up to us to say that the slaughter of the Herera was or was not genocide. The question is, have any "authorities" (politicians, activists, journalists, historians) called it genocide or not? If no one (from these groups) ever called it genocide, we should not use it as an example. If some have called it genocide we can present it as an example and mention who it is that considers it genocide. If there is any consensus that it is genocide, or if there has been contentious debate (NOT among wikipedians, but among politicians, etc.), we should explain that too. By the way, in light of these principles I am opposed to creating neologisms to make room for our own views, I don't think that is very wikipedic. Slrubenstein

Formatting of list of genocides

formatttttt question: we have a list on the page of genocides. I cant tell why we have chosen some of the names. Some seem to indicate the location of the genocide (France, North America), some indicate the target group (Armenia this could be location), others seem to indicate the perpetrators (German, Japanese)....shouldnt each section be named in the same manner? All location based or all target based or all prep based? OneVoice 18:56, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Moved to talk

Alleged Allies genocide during WW2

Allies during WW2: 3 to 5 million German civilians killed, 10 to 15 million expelled from their homes.

Bombing of Dresden in World War II: allied bombers dropped 3.4 kilotons of incendiaries (napalm) on Dresden, specifically targetting a civilian population (the city was packed with refugees), and creating a firestorm which killed an estimated 50,000 to 100,000 civilians.

Bombing of Hamburg: one third of the city destroyed, 60,000 to 100,000 civilian deaths.

Allied bombers attacked known refugee bunkers in many western and eastern German cities, attempting to "demoralize" the Germans.

Attacks on German refugees during the World War II evacuation and expulsion

Refugee ships in the Baltic Sea were targetted by allied war ships and submarines and sunk, no survivors were rescued and rescue ships were also sunk.

I am think, that it fits in definition of genocide. Genocide must target members of the same group. Bombing of the city, kills everybody, inlcuding the slave workers. In addition, we should put there also nuke bombing of Hiroshima. Cautious 12:22, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I removed it.

Prussian Holocaust: Soviet rape and murder bands attacked East Prussia, raping and killing women and killing all men. Survivors trudged in great columns through the snow at -25°C, fleeing through the blizzards and shell fire. The German population of East Prussia was systematically eliminated.

Convoys of German refugees running for their lives from East Prussia, Silesia, Pomerania, eastern Brandenburg and other eastern German lands were targetted by bombers and attack airplanes.

I am not sure wether targeting refugees is a genocide. Anyway, it was invented first by Germans. I think it is rather barbarism. East Prussia holocaust is POV. There were some war crimes, but genocide? I doubt. Cautious 12:25, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Invented by Germans"? Caesar was first I know off (Helvetians). And surely you are not of the opinion that because Germany commited crimes they were free game for others? Re-adding with a slightly edited text. Jo r 12:29, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

ever heard of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians? Predated THe Holocaust. The longterm genocide of the native Americans? Also predating the Holocaust, as do many other genocides throughout history. Just because there is a tendency to mark the Holocaust as the only important genocide doesn't mean that it's true.

[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:216.99.245.135)

Million of Turk were killed by Greek & million of French were killed by German etc.... What means the reference to wasp ?

Why not adding both World War as genocide ?

Ericd 21:40, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Palestinian Holocaust and Genocide by Israel---1948-Present

Palestinians are dying, unjustly, that is all that need to be said to act on this issue and change the situation. They live in poverty, unable to govern themselves and build themselves up as a nation due to the extremely strong restrictions that bind them. The anger of such groups as Hamas is understandable, but their use of terrorism hides the integrity of their cause. It is also understandable that Israel takes certain measures to protect their people from terrorism, but they are now destroying a race – they are committing genocide. It is only when these humanitarian injustices of Palestinians are solved and this unrecognized Holocaust is put to an end that the true path to peace in the Middle East can begin.

This has been an issue for well over 60 years but the international community as a whole has been unable to stop it: hence "Terrorism" and "Suicide Bombers" (http://www.harlemlive.org/international/middle_east/palestiniangenocide/palgenocide.html)

Please read up on the NPOV policy before making further edits. Pakaran . 01:41, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Please read up on the "definiton" of Genocide, Pakaran, before reverting and censoring the truth about what is happening to the Palestinian People by the Israeli's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

and read up on the Wiki NPOV policy to allow alternative povs and criticisms. -PV

What I find disappointing is that to save even a page about the obvious genocide programs in West Papua I had to move it off-site ( http://members.optushome.com.au/daeron/Genocide/ ) to avoid it constantly being over-written by a re-direct (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=West_Papuan_Genocide&redirect=no) by the local supremacist gang of three.

etymology

Wouldn't it be more obvious to derive the word from Latin genus? Burschik

Although that might seem logical, Raphael Lemkin, a linguist, coined the word himself, and the description of the etymology in the article matches precisely how he says he derived it. Bsktcase 23:13, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I disagree

"Determining what historical events constitute a genocide and which are merely criminal or inhuman behavior is not a clearcut matter. Furthermore, in nearly every case where accusations of genocide have circulated, partisans of various sides have fiercely disputed the interpretation and details of the event, often to the point of promoting wildly different versions of the facts. An accusation of genocide is certainly not taken lightly and will almost always be controversial. The following list of alleged genocides should be understood in this context and not regarded as the final word on these subjects."

They are clearly established cases of genocide the Holocaust, Armenian genocide (despite Turkish denial) and Rwanda. I don't think NPOV should go as far as leaving a loophole for Holocaust deniers.

Ericd 20:44, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Genghis Khan and his sons

"One of the greatest alleged genocides in terms of raw numbers is the killings that occurred during the formation of the empire of Genghis Khan and his sons. It is estimated that millions of civilians were ruthlessly and systematically killed throughout many parts of Eurasia in the 13th Century." This doesn't qualify as genocide IMO. It's difficult to argue that Gengjis Kahn aimed a total extermination of the Chinese. Ericd 20:24, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Genocide vs. Ethnocide vs. ethnic cleansing vs. etc., part 2

There's a bunch of overlap between ethnocide and the explanation here of ethnocide vs. genocide under Related Concepts. I know this because I wrote both of them (from someone else's stubs). I Googled ethnocide and although the term is widely used and abused, the only serious, scholarly discussions of its meaning and usage did not agree with what had been stubbed. The stubbed definition didn't seem any different from either genocide or ethnic cleansing, and didn't really make sense as it was entered. So I changed it to agree with what I found online. I am pretty confident of the quality of the definition I have provided, so if anyone disagrees and wants to change it, I hope they will do so with a very coherent definition of the new meaning and solid sources cited. (I cited one.)

The whole purpose of the Related Concepts section seems to be to discuss different terms that people try to either use interchangeably with, or equate to, genocide, and to describe what each term has in common with genocide and how it differs. Hard to do that without also giving at least basic definitions, so at the moment there's some redundancy between this section and the articles for each term. I don't know whether the section should be farmed out to each related term and then reduced here to a list of wikified links, or if this section is fine as-is. Bsktcase 05:00, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Do we still need NPOV?

Now that the highly contentious list of alleged historical genocides has been moved to Genocides in history (hallelujah!), does this article still need the NPOV flag? Bsktcase 05:01, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Seeing no objections, I have removed the NPOV flag from this article. (Note: the chief culprit for NPOVage has been moved even further, from Genocides in history to Genocide and ethnic conflict in Israel and Palestine.) Of course anyone else who still has NPOV concerns about this article can always put the flag back. —Bsktcase 18:30, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Efforts to prevent genocide

If someone can do a better job describing the stages and prevention of genocide, that'd be great. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 10:11, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

no original research

I have removed this from the article:

Opponents of government massacres often insist that the word's usage should include such massacres, even if international law has a narrower scope. These advocates complain that a narrower definition may be seen as exculpating the totalitarian governments that, they claim, killed over 100 million of their own citizens during the 20th century.

Others insist that the word should be used only in the accepted sense in international law, which limits the scope to "national, ethnical, racial or religious" groups, even if this excludes some massacres. These advocates claim that their preferred usage is closer to the word's literal meaning and to the primary meanings found in dictionaries. However, the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary [2] (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=genocide) definition reads as follows: "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group".

The way it is written, it looks like "original research." It is also terribly vague (who are these opponents and what massacres are they talking about? Who are these others?) If someone can provide veriviable sources, with citations, and specify what the research actually shows, it can be rewritten and put back in the article. Slrubenstein 02:54, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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