Talk:False cognate
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I proposes English "hole", Yucatec Maya "hool" (pronounced same) to be used as an example instead of "many" vs. "manhi", which is hostile to Nostratic hypothesis. Any opinion?
Sanxiyn 03:28, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Article gives English "many" and Korean "manhi" as an example of a false cognate.
I proposes that this may be a true cognate, in the light of Nostratic hypothesis. Let's start from English. English "many" came from Middle English "manye", Old English "manig", reconstructured Common Germanic "managa", Proto Indo-European "menegh", which meant 'many', or 'copious'. Reflexes in other Indo-European languages include Irish "minic" and Welsh "mynych", which mean 'frequent', descended from Common Celtic "minig". Also Russian "mnog(мног)" and Old Church Slavic "munogu", which mean 'abundant'. This is well-established and you can find it in PIE references.
On the Korean side, -i in "manhi" is adverbial suffix, so the root is "manh(많)". In Middle Korean this root is written "manhâ" (â for arae-a, first a is long tone). There are Written Mongolian "mandu" and Chuvash, a Turkic language, "mъnъ", which mean 'big', also attested Old Japanese "mane-si" meaning 'many', but replaced by "opo-si" already in the old time (from Old Japanese "opo" meaning 'big') thus results in modern "ooi(おおい)" but still meaning 'many', and Evenki form "man" meaning 'crowd'. This allows us to reconstruct Proto Altaic root "mana(ha)". This is more controversial, but can be found in literatures: Mongolian-Japanese relation pointed out by Ozawa Shigeo who compiled extensive Mongolian-Japanese dictionary, and also noted by Korean scholar Samuel Martin in "Lexical evidences relating Korean to Japanese", with sound correspondences and all. (Actually, since "m" and "n" is same in all reflexes, there's not much to do.)
This two reconstructed protoform can give rise to tentative Nostratic root "managha", and the rule that Nostratic /a/ gives PIE /e/ and loss of final vowel is regular. (See Allan Bomhard's book "Indo-European and the Nostratic Hypothesis") To get Altaic form you need to assume /gh/ becomes /h/ between vowels, which is reasonable.
You may disagree. But I think there are reasons to believe that m-n- for "many" is likely to have very ancient root, and English "many" and Korean "manhi" may be a true cognate.
Sanxiyn 01:04, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Geez, maybe we could add ...(although some nostraticists think they might be related.)... in that case...
Thanks, Damian. I thought I was the only Westerner in the world to use the similarity between many and manhi as a mnemonic device. I had know idea it was a legitimate linguistic concept, with a name and all! Ed Poor
Oops! I got tripped over a false friend in the typo (know) in the above sentence. The irony is spinning around in my tummy like an eel.
That's not a false friend; that's just a homophone. A false friend is a homophone that crosses language boundaries. But thanks for inadvertently pointing out the similarity among FCs, FFs, and homophones; I might include those in the next version of the article. --Damian Yerrick
Does anyone know the relationship (false cognate/ borrowing) between the Japanese arigato and the Portuguese obrigado? They both mean "Thanks." I seem to recall that the Portuguese were the first westerners in recorded history to visit Japan. Any ideas? If anyone knows, please add it to the appropriate entry... Steve Rapaport
- Last time I checked, I was told that the Japanese borrowed that word from the Portuguese. --Damian Yerrick
- If it helps, supposedly 'arigato' is a combination of 'ari'(there is-有り) and 'gato'(difficulty-難う). Meaning there is a strong ethical custom among the Japanese to return favors, like 'I owe you one' thing.--Jondel 09:52, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- BTW , Supposedly the Japanese word 'Tabacco' came from Portugese. Perhaps the Japanese 'Baka' and 'Bakero' ( 'stupid')came from 'Vaquero'(?) .--Jondel 00:24, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Is bakero a real japanese word? I couldn't find it at Jim Breen's online dictionary?
- You are not thinking of the similar word Bakayarou where -yarou is a pejorative suffic?
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baka gives no examples of the "Vaca" etymology,
- the kanji the word consists of mean "deer" and "horse", but that could be a later spelling.
- I don't know if there are examples of the word in japanese, prior to the portuguese-japanese trade routes.
Is there any true cognation between English "dinner" and Spanish "dinero"?
- No. "Dinner" comes from Latin disjejunare, to break a fast. (French dîner and déjeûner come from the same root, but were formed at different times.) "Dinero" comes from Latin denarius, a Roman monetary unit. -phma 04:41, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
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that other type of false cognate
This may be a misuse of the term, but the meaning of false cognates I was brought up with were words from different languages that appeared similar, but had very different meanings. The classic example, of course, is embarassed in English and embarasada, or pregnant, in Spanish. Is this a false friend? If not, what do we call this and where does it belong? Italo Svevo
- I would say embarrassed and embarazada(with a z) are false friends.
- They possibly share the same etymological root,
- but since the english word is borrowed from french or latin, they are not true cognates.
- Interestingly, false friends in closely related languages are often true cognates.
- Examples are English Leek, Swedish Lök (Onion). English Fang, German Fang(catch).
- (I think this info should be added to the page.)
Is there any possible relation between the Romany/Calo word 'Gadjo' and the Japanese word 'Gaijin', both of which sound very similar and mean the same thing (I'm guessing not -- compare to other 'G' words like hebrew 'Gentile' and American 'Goddamfurner' that also mean the same thing). Only reason I am not sure is that the Romani (gypsies, zigeuner) roam so far and wide they could have theoretically picked up a word from almost anywhere... so I won't just discount it and add it in.
To be added to the list : Japanese : Anata ( you in English ), Arabic (and Hebrew?) Anta ( also you in English ). --Jondel 09:48, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC).
- Gadjo and Gaijin is also similar to the hebrew(or yiddish?) word Goy, meaning non-jewish.
- Japanese even has the word Anta, it is a word used by girls and women, derived from Anata.
- From a discussion at http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm, concerning sound resemblances between different languages: "Of course it's worse than that, since there's semantic leeway as well. Goyim means 'nations' (from goy 'nation'); though it's metaphorically used for 'non-Jews', it's certainly not an exact semantic match for a word meaning 'foreigner'. (Gaijin is a borrowing from Chinese wairén 'outside-person'.) I can't emphasize enough that inexact matches greatly multiply the chances for finding random resemblances." W=G seems a strange sound shift, but French from Germanic often shows a similar pattern, W=Gu. (Ward, Garder,; Wit, Guide,; (Swe)Vante(Mitten), Gant(Glove).)
Japanese greeting
Another Japanese question - twice recently I have heard a Japanese greeting that sounds very similar to the French "bonjour". Is it just my Western ears, or is there a relation? — Paul G 15:59, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Was this 'Dommo' (Dom-mo)? How was it used?--Jondel 08:57, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Reverted Edit
"...a false cognate stems from a comparable source but has come to have different meanings in two languages..." This seems to be completely wrong. A false cognate comes from different sources that have, purely by chance, evolved inte words which look very similar both in meaning and appearance. I revert your edit, since I neither could understand fully what you meant, nor believe it is correct. (What do you mean with "comparable source"?) I requote myself: "Interestingly, false friends in closely related languages are often true cognates. Examples are English Leek, Swedish Lök (Onion). English Fang, German Fang(catch). (I think this info should be added to the page.) " Are examples like these, what you are thinking about?
List of False Cognates
The "List of False Cognates" links to a "List of False Friends", =S, maybe we should make another page with a list of false cognates (such as en/jp: sô/so, nay/nai etc...)