Talk:Demographic history of Kosovo

Contents

1 Disagreement about the data 2 Title 3 Growth of Albanian population 4 1911 Turkish statistics 5 1923 ethnic map 5.1 Serbian claims and Albanian reality 6 Factual accuracy and neutrality dispute 7 Last round of reversions 8 Arithmetics and manipulation 9 note on link fixes 10 "19th and 20th century ethnographers" 11 Ethnic Map of a Part of Ancient Serbia

Disagreement about the data

Any questions regarding the data can be addressed here. --Igor

I don't agree with the data. They're from Serbian sources only. Do not remove the disputed message unless you put it there yourself. Dori | Talk 04:09, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

You say that 360,000 non-Albanians left after the war and 200,000 Albanians moved in. But when I compare the numbers between the last two censuses I see about 150,000 less non-Albanians and 100,000 less Albanians. Where are the 300,000 missing Albanians then? I don't believe your 300,000 and 200,000 number can be correct. Rmhermen 04:13, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

The UNHCR says 220,000 Serbs fled so I will change that part to that figure. Rmhermen 14:21, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

---

Dori, what facts do you find inaccurate? The fact that Turkish census says this, the fact that Austrian colonel says that, the fact that Select Committee on Foreign Affairs of the United Kingdom Parliament says yet another thing, the fact that Yugoslav censa say what they do, or the fact that UNMIK census presented these numbers? If you can't point out which facts are inaccurate, I will remove your notice. If you think that the article as a whole is not neutral, well, that is another thing and deserves another notice. Nikola

08:57, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I seriously doubt any of the sources are accurate. They're all from sides that Albanians are unlikely to have cooperated with. This should be noted. The language is also way beyond NPOV.

You are wrong. There were no reasons for Albanians not to cooperate with Turkish or Communist (or their own!) officials, and Austrian and Serbian estimates are clearly marked as estimates. Nikola

I mean "Creation of a fascist-nazi puppet state Greater Albania, massacres of some 10,000 Serbs, ethnic cleansing of about 100,000, settling of 70,000 of Albanians from Albania;" -- are you seriously saying that that is NPOV??? In 1999 NATO occupies Serbian province.

It accurately describes what happened, noone disputes it, so no source is needed. So, yes, it's NPOV. Nikola

I dispute that "220,000 non-Albanians are ethnically cleansed, an estimated 160,000 Albanians move in from Albania according to Serb sources."

So, you are disputing that there are Serb sources which say that 220,000 non-Albanians are ethnically cleansed and 160,1000 Albanians moved in from Albania? I can assure you that there are a lot of sources which say exactly that. Nikola

There is a ton of crap in this article for me to mention it all, and you should not remove the notice, as it is indeed biased toward the Serbian POV and you are a Serb. I'd be OK if a neutral side tried to reword the "article" but if you removed it it would be against policy. Dori | Talk 13:29, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)

Again, if you don't point which facts are inaccurate, I will remove the notice. So far you have questioned validity of sources, but not the fact that sources say what they say. Nikola

20:48, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There are no links that go with some of the sources, how could I even question them?

SFRY censa are apparently not to be found online. That is not reason for questioning them. If you don't believe that these are numbers from them, go to your library and read them. Nikola

As for the numbers I mentioned above, I do dispute them, and they have no source to go with.

I take that this refers to WW2 numbers. I have managed to find that in this (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Kosovo_population_data-points&diff=811062&oldid=679442) edit by G-Man deleted the source: actually, it's source is¹. I am puting it back in, and, for the record: I HAVE NO INTENTION IN FINDING THE SOURCES WHILE YOU ARE DELETING THEM AND LATER CLAIMING THAT THERE ARE NO SOURCES. This is not the first time that it happened. By the way, ¹ also supports some of Yugoslav censa results. Nikola

Just for that alone, the notice should stand. Again, you removing them would not be NPOV. Actually, this page need another notice. Dori | Talk 23:57, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)

I didn't remove the sources. Also, you didn't answer about the numbers I said. "an estimated 160,000 Albanians move in from Albania according to Serb sources" -- is utter crap, and there is no source to go with it. You can pollute and POV the article all you want, but you cannot remvove the disputed notice. Dori | Talk 14:38, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

No, your friend G-Man did, and you are complaining about that. Same happened in article on Prishtina. Same will happen in article on Kosovo, where it was ChrisO who removed the soruces. I can remove the notice, and I just did it.

Our media don't have that old archives, but I've managed to dig out this (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:BXktf-ZH0tEJ:www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20001123/svijet.htm+%22albanci+iz+albanije%22+kosovo&hl=sr&ie=UTF-8&inlang=pl) article which quotes Kostunica's interview with Koha Ditore: "Napomenuo je da su se gotovo svi Albanci vratili svojim ku?ama, a da su na Kosovo stigli ?ak i neki Albanci iz Albanije koji tu nikada prije nisu ?ivjeli." - "He pointed out that almost all Albanians have returned to their homes, and that on Kosovo arrived even some Albanians from Albania who have never lived there before." Ask XJam if you don't believe me. Nikola

07:25, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You're partly responsible for the alleged inaccuracies, so you can't be the one to judge that they're accurate. Also your quote doesn't mention any numbers, so it's worthless. If even 2 people from Albania came in, the quote would be true, but it wouldn't make the data accurate. Also, the numbers should be carefully attributed, or else I might think Igor or whoever put them in just made them up. Dori | Talk 14:35, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)

[1] (http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/pubs/archive/data/200006/00609-002-pubs-sko.htm): "One of reasons for the government of FRY to decide [not to allow entrance to FRY to persons who have passports with UNMIK stamp] were informations that on on Blace border crossing a larga number of Albanians from Albania entered Kosovo".

[2] (http://news.serbianunity.net/bydate/2000/Feb_18/1.html)[3] (http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiva/2000/02/18/srpski/p00021702.shtm) (an interview with an Albanian who fled Kosovo after the war): "On Kosmet there are today a lot of Albanians from Albania."

[4] (http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiva/2002/08/25/srpski/T02082401.shtml): "Coming of Kfor and Unmik to Kosovo and Metohia in June of 1999, and entrance of several tens of thousands of Albanians from Albania ... caused egzodus of Serbs."

[5] (http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiva/2000/07/02/srpski/P00070101.shtm): "Serbs have decided to boycott local elections ... while in Southern Serbian province there is a large number of Albanians from Albania and Macedonia."

[6] (http://www.suc.org/news/tanjug/b071299_s.html): "Citing Bulgarian police unit on Kosovo, [Bulgarian] magazine "24 sata" claims that in the souther Serbian province ... since June to first daysof December have illegaly settled 200,000 foreignets - Albanians from Albania."

And so on, and so forth. Will you remove the notice now? And which inaccuracies am I responsible for? Nikola

08:01, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

All these are hearsay. You are only mentioning one source with numbers, and that's not even much of a source (not an authority). I suggest you have a read at: Wikipedia:Verifiability. This data is not verifiable, and it should not be in an encyclopedia until it is. Dori | Talk 19:26, May 1, 2004 (UTC)

The fact that a large number of Albanians from Albania entered Kosovo may or may not be verifiable, but the fact that numerouse Serbian sources claim that a large number of Albanians from Albania entered Kosovo is, apparently, verifiable. I suggest you have a read at: Wikipedia:NPOV.

Since you haven't answered me which inaccuracies I am responsible for, I presume that I am not responsible for any inaccuracies, so I will remove the notice. Nikola

07:39, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Title

This article starts some five centuries before the creation of the modern province; as such, it talks about demographic histories of both Kosovo and Metohia. Nikola 13:25, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

... which is now internationally known as Kosovo, and the article doesnt even mention metohia except for the external link. -- Chris 73 | Talk 06:48, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

It does now, added particular info from Müller about Metohija. --Igor 07:00, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Which is now internationally known as Kosovo???? What is now internationally known as Kosovo?? Please, give more substantial reply. Nikola 07:31, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

umm.... Kosovo is known as Kosovo. See Talk:Kosovo for details. -- Chris 73 | Talk 07:37, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

The fact that Kosovo is internationally known as Kosovo is undeniable, but not very helpful. Kosovo i Metohija is internationally known as Kosovo and Metohia. Nikola 06:10, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Growth of Albanian population

According to the graph on this page, the Albanian population of Kosovo grew by 1,5 millions (almost seven-fold) in a few decades in the 20th century. Wouldn't it better to say from where all these Albanians came ? For sure not from Albania. Bogdan | Talk 10:24, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Surely not all of them came from Albania. What are you aiming at? Nikola 07:20, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think that's an important fact in this context. Where are they from and why this large-scale immigration started. Bogdan | Talk 09:30, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Albania was poorer and politically more oppressive than YU and Kosovo leadership simply allowed this, while YU leadership didn't mind. It is hotly disputed how many Albanians are actually from Albania and how many are descendants of Albanians actually living on Kosovo. Nikola 05:23, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

No it was Rankovic. hahahahahah??????--Hipi Zhdripi 03:08, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1911 Turkish statistics

1871: According to Austrian colonel Peter Kukulj in a study done for the internal use of the Austro-Hungarian army.

According to Turkish statistics, 912,902 inhabitants lived in the Vilayet of Kosova, out of whom 743,040 were Albanians, 53,396 Bulgarians, 106,209 Serbs, 20,009 Jews and 5,043 Romanies.

Source: ASHRSH, fund MKK. D-7, doc. 707936. Turkish statistics of 1911. [7] (http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/chap2.htm)

Why does this article relies on the statistics made up by an Austrian colonel but not using the data from the Turkish census ?

Anyway, on the census data, the vilayet included part of Serbia, Muntenegro, Macedonia and Albania [8] (http://users.bigpond.net.au/perovicgenealogy/image033.jpg), but the ethnic proportions are quite clear. Bogdan | Talk 18:06, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well Bogdan, the next time you make up bogus Turkish census results at least try to have them add up correctly :). 743,040 + 53,396 + 106,209 + 20,009 + 5,043 = 927,697 not 912,902. Besides, another way of telling that your figures are bogus is the fact that the Turkish censa did not go by ethnicity but rather by religion. Muslims all together, Jews separate, Orthodox and Catholics. Later on, with the creation of the Bulgarian exarchate you had separate columns for exarchists (the Bulgarian Orthodox Church) and Patriarchists (other Orthodox under the jurisdiction of Constantinople i.e. Serbs, Greeks, Orthodox Albanians and your precious Macedo-Vlachs). So any Turkish census which has numbers that A) Do not add up and B) include Albanians is most certainly bogus. Besides, the page you quotes is propaganda central of the former 'Kosovo INformation Site'. Formerly on www.kosova.com when it was still Ibrahim Rugova's LDK party site. --Igor 3:40, OCt 2, 2004 (UTC)

Probably because noone saw it until now. I would include it if it isn't completely bogus--for example, there are no Turks. Nikola 15:00, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That's because the document is probably not quoted completely, because the number of turks was both insignifiant (probably somewhere close to 2.000, as the Austrian colonel said) and irelevant. Bogdan | Talk 16:58, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, OK. Why not, though I have found other sources about the same period having totally different numbers. Nikola 22:56, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

End of discussion, '1911 Turkish statistics' are bogus and I expect this part of the discussion to be archived so that we can adress some SERIOUS issues. --Igor 3:40, OCt 2, 2004 (UTC)

1923 ethnic map

Also interesting, this 1923 ethnic map [9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Distribution_of_Races_on_the_Balkans_in_1923.jpg) seems to contradict the 1929 statistics of the article. Bogdan | Talk 20:35, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It is probably based on the aforementioned Turkish statistics, which is disputed. However, as I said, I have no problems about mentioning the statistic, as long as the dispute is noted. My guess is that Turkey overinflated number of Albanians so that portions of the vilayet wouldn't be given to Serbia and Montenegro in then already predictable First Balkan War (can't find a source which claims so, just a possible explanation by me).

Unrelated to this, Bogdan, if I can ask you, why do you have such strong anti-Serbian sentiment?

I don't have anti-Serbian sentiment. I have an anti-Nationalist sentiment.

Yeah, that's especially visible in your contributions, such as Moldovan language, Image:Map-balkans-vlachs.png, or any map of a Romanian historical region (such as Image:Bucovina.png). Nikola

Why, for example, you don't try searching for sources which would confirm those already in this article, or sources which explain why so rapid population shifts?

I searched new sources that would explain the rapid population shifts and I found the Turkish census. This source explains it. However, I would try looking for more neutral sources.

When March violence happened on Kosovo you were very quick to write an article about 17th century Bajrakli mosque and moreover wrote that it was destroyed when it was only lightly damaged, not to mention that you wrote that it was "one out of the 80 that had existed in Belgrade", a complete FUD,but you haven't bothered to wrote an article on any of the churches which were completely destroyed on Kosovo, many of which are much older and have much more significance than the mosque. I mean, despite that I will discuss this article with you, or anyone else, but would just like to know. Nikola 14:59, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Many Kosovo and Serbia-related articles are taking the side of Serbs. Obviously this happens because in Wikipedia the presence of Serbs is stronger than the one of Albanians. Bogdan | Talk 18:43, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, right. All Kosovo-related articles (save ones which talk about completely neutral topics, such as Metohija or Sar Mountain) are heavily anti-Serb, as are many other. With Dori as sysop, I can't say how can anyone claim that in Wikipedia the presence of Serbs is stronger than the one of Albanians.

Even if not, this however doesn't explain why would you think that burning of a 17th century mosque is more important than burning of a 12th century church. Nikola 08:42, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Do you have any proof showing that I have abused my administrator priviledges in any way, let alone in some way that favors the Albanian POV, or are you throwing that out there just to spice up the discussion?

I was talking to Bogdan, not you. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is that I am the only long time Albanian contributor, whereas there are at least two Serbian long time contributors. Additionally, there are no long term Kosovar-Albanian contributors. Dori | Talk 07:40, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

You might be the only but you're a sysop. You can outweight two other contributors. As for Kosovo Albanian contributors, there are also no Kosovo Serb contributors, so that fact is unimportant. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Serbian claims and Albanian reality

I am neither Serb, nor Albanian but I have spent enough time reading old ethnographic sources to know that the data given here is completely wrong. The Albanians have constituted the majority of the population of Kosovo since the period between 1690-1740 and the mass flight/expulsions of Serbians to Banat.

Which is pure nonsense and I unlike you, will prove what I am stating by quoting travelers who visited the area. -- Igor 4:30, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

According to Weigand, Albanians constituted around 2/3s of the population of Kosovo (68%) before the Balkan Wars, which is almost identical to the percentage of Albanians in the censuses after 1948, before the Albanian demographic explosion in the 1970s.

Gustav Weigand was paid by Bulgaria to carry out his research. He not only Bulgaricized all Macedonia but Kosovo as well. Funny how you misquote him, Weigand actually 'found' Albanians and Slavs in Prizren. He actually refrains from calling Prizren Serbs as such, just calls them 'Slavs that speak a mixed Serbo-Bulgarian dialect'. And according to him all of the Presevo valley (Bujanvac, Presevo) is also Bulgarian-Albanian, not one Serb. No surprise that Bulgarians have a Bulgarian translation of Weigand online on (About Albanians (http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/gw/gw_3_4.html), Whole book (http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/gw/gw_index.html)). Thus you might have an issue with my nationality, yes I am Serbian, but you cannot accuse me of propaganda as I always attempt to use as neutral a source as I can and will continues to do so in the future. -- Igor 4:30, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

If you think that the sources are credible, add them to the article. Nikola 15:51, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It needs to be taken into account that until that time the birth rate of Serbs and Albanians was, if not identical, at least comparable.

There was certainly ethnic cleansning of Serbs in Kosovo, no one doubts that, what, however, bothers me is that the Serb who has written this article has forgotten (very conveniently) to mention the large scale ethnic cleansning of Albanians in 1912/1913, nor the Albanian emigration to Turkey in the late 1940s and the 1950s.

Had there been ethnic cleansing of Albanians in 1912-3 we would not be at odds with such articles. For one thing there would be no Albanians in Kosovo (who at that time numbered 300,000 according to some, maybe less maybe more, would have all been expulsed in a flash) and there would be no need for the "Kosovo Information Center" to make up bogus data about a 1911 Turkish census with more Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Jews than there were inhabitants in the Vilayet to begin with. -- Igor 4:30, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

I'll skip over "Serb who has written this article" part. I don't know that there was ethnic cleansing of Albanians in 1912/13, quite to the opposite. And, AFAIK, 20th century emigrations to Turkey were comprised mostly of Turks and Slavic Muslims. Nikola 15:51, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• I don't know that there was ethnic cleansing of Albanians in 1912/13*

VMORO The report of the Carnegie Commission on the causes and the Conduct of the Balkan Wars, it is actually available on the net

I have easily found what seems to be official page of the Commission (http://www.ccpdc.org) but it doesn't seem to mention Kosovo at all[10] (http://www.google.com/search?&q=kosovo+site%3Awww.ccpdc.org). Nikola

--Response VMORO-- These are excerpts from the report, may be next time you should read better.

'thus the Albanian petitioners, who on September 21 addressed themselves to the Great Powers in the name of the populations of Djakova, Ipek, Plava, Goussinie and the ex-vilayet of Kossovo, did not exaggerate when they stated, as regards this other theater of the revolt, that "the Servian and Montenegrin regular troops undertook and did everything, from the first day on which they invaded the Albanian territory, either to compel the inhabitants to lose their nationality, or brutally to suppress the Shkiptar race." '

Djakovica (Djakova), Pec (Ipek), Plav (Plava), Gusinje (Goussinie) are all part of the ex-vilayet of Kosovo. The Albanians in those regions resisted the Serbs who fought back. Naturally, when they lost the battle they complained to observers from foreign lands about the injustices of the victor as they had supported the ruined Ottoman Empire. -- Igor 4:30, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

'As to the Servians, we possess authentic evidence in the shape of a letter from a member of the Servian army, published in the Servian Socialist paper Radnitchke Novine, of October 9/22.

"Radnicke novine" was the mouthpiece of the Social-Democrats. The Serbian Social-Democrats were the only SD in Europe not to support Serbia's wartime budget in WW I. It is not surprise that they slandered Serbia's liberation of Kosovo, that was their hole platform, attacking the establishment and the Kingdom of Serbia which at the time was the only parliamentary democracy in the region (more democratic than Bulgaria and Austria-Hungary at least). These were the predecessors to the Communists who carried out a wholescale slaughter of Serbian intellectuals in 1941-5 for the purpose of the national revolution. Nothing suprising here in their letter. -- Igor 4:30, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

The contents of this letter resemble only too closely the letters of the Greek soldiers. True, the reference here is to an expedition made to repress a revolt. "My dear Friend," writes the soldier, "I have no time to write to you at length, but I can tell you that appalling things are going on here. I am terrified by them, and constantly ask myself how men can be so barbarous as to commit such cruelties. It is horrible. I dare not (even if I had time, which I have not) tell you more, but I may say that Liouma (an Albanian region along the river of the same name), no longer exists. There is nothing but corpses, dust and ashes. There are villages of 100, 150, 200 houses, where there is no longer a single man, literally not one. We collect them in bodies of forty to fifty, and then we pierce them with our bayonets to the last man. Pillage is going on everywhere. The officers told the soldiers to go to Prisrend and sell the things they had stolen." The paper which published this letter adds: "Our friend tells us of things even more appalling than this (!); but they are so horrible and so heartrending that we prefer not to publish them." '

And it is not only the map which Bogdan quotes above that gives ethnic preponderance to the Albanians, nearly ALL ETHNOGRAPHIC maps from the late 19th and the early 20th century do that. This article should be either fully re-written, or it should be erased as it is highly biased and incorrect and serves to justify Serb aspirations to Kosovo, not to inform. VMORO

Is that what you would like, for the page to be erased? Should have said it earlier, not to waste my time answering your witty remarks. -- Igor 4:30, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

': This article is perhaps one of the most unbiased of all articles on Wikipedia.'

VMORO> You are the last user who can give an opinion on that, esp. considering that it's you who've written most of the article. This is for the other readers to decide and judging by the opinions in the Talk section, pretty much everyone who's read it, is VERY dissatisfied with its contents.

This is not true either way. I have only organised it and found sources for some parts of the article without them. Even if I have written it from scratch, though, I don't see why couldn't I give an opinion on its neutrality, especially if that opinion is supported by some evidence. Nikola

--Response VMORO-- You cannot give an opinion about the neutrality of smth you have written yourself. Half your statements are based on only Serbian sources - and we all know how reliable they are.

Just by missing the pieces that do not fit in the picture make it biased. Bogdan | Talk 18:47, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It does not state anything; it just points to the sources. It may not be true that between the two wars Serbs were majority population in Kosovo; but the article does no claim it to be so. Everything that the article states is that Serbs were majority population in Kosovo according to source #1, and that is absolutely true. Everyone can see the source and have opinion on its validity. Nikola 15:51, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

--Response VMORO-- I'll add the sources 2morrow or the day after 2morrow - as soon as I have the time. BTW, how would you explain this sentence: 'Numerous, mostly Serbian, sources estimate that a large number (usually rounded as 200,000) of Albanians move in'

Who are these sources? Why have I never heard them? Do you may be mean only Serbian sources (because no international source would ever say smth as silly as that)? Why will 200,000 Albanians move to poor, war-devastated Kosovo instead of emigrating to Greece or Italy? Where have these 200,000 Albanians gone if the total number of Albanians in Kosovo in 1991 is almost equal to their number in 2002? And this is even if we don't consider their birth rate, everyone knows how HIGH it is. Sentences like this one are exactly the reason why this article is and will be considered a non-NPOV one.

VMORO> What bothers me is NOT the validity of your sources BUT the SELECTION of those sources - only the ones which you consider "convenient" and nothing else.

Exactly, VMORO. You could write an article on Hitler and write that he successfully reformed the German economy in the 30s, that he was a vegetarian, that he was a quite talented artist and that he married Eva Braun in 1945. Although these are all true, it would not make it a fair and unbiased article. Bogdan | Talk 11:34, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A slight difference is that, while it would be hard to find a biography of Hitler which doesn't mention some other interesting aspects of his life, not even the ones most adamantly opposed to this article have managed to find any other sources about Kosovo population until recently. Nikola 08:42, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

--Response VMORO-- Until recently - that's a very good remark. And I'll find even more.

Let's see. Dori, who is Albanian, didn't found any sources in more than five months. Nikola 11:25, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I spent 5 month doing nothing but researching these statistics, as evidenced by my lack of any editing for more than two months. I try to steer clear of any articles where you and Igor are involved. I just don't have the nerve to deal with your editing. Dori | Talk 07:35, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

OK, you spent just 3 months. Or one week. Irrelevant. In this article at least, you have to admit that I haven't removed any sources, as long as they were verifiable. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

VMORO> You're absolutely right, Bogdan, and the comparison is even quite amusing-:). I made the necessary editions to insure a more broad perspective of opinions on the population of Kosovo, though certainly this article needs a lot of work to get really neutral. Take for example expressions like "Ottoman occupation" (corrected) and "fascist-nazi puppet state". The whole article is seething with hatred of anything that's Muslim or Albanian.

Uh, independent ethnographers... but it's fine mostly. I'd ask to put the sources at the bottom (links if youhave them, literature if you don't) so that people wouldn't complain about them missing. I also don't understand how the note about Vardar Macedonia relates to the article. Would you also remove disputed factual accuracy message now that you've edited the article to your liking?

--Response VMORO-- As I said, I'll put the names of the books soon, I don't have them at hand and here. No, I won't remove the disputed factual accuracy message, this article needs a lot more work than this to be able to call itself neutral. Fx, why do u fail to mention the ethnic cleansning of 600,000 Albanians in 1999?

Ethnic cleansing or not all of those Albanians returned to Kosovo and are living in it as we speak. -- Igor 4:30, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

It didn't have long-lasting influence on demographics of the area.

And if you don't want to remove the notices, I will remove them then. See below for lenghty explanation. Nikola 11:25, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

How did u calculate the number of 'etnically cleansed' Albanians at 242,381? What are your sources? Why doesn't this number correspond to the difference betweeen the non-Albanian population in 1991 and 2002? Because a simple subtraction operation yields around 130,000-140,000 refugees.

The 1991 figures are estimates based on false premises (see comments on 1971 and 1981 censa carried out by Kosovo-Albanians if they haven't been removed so far?)-- Igor 4:30, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

As for Vardar Macedonia: The Serbian government counted the Slavic population of VM as Serb between WW1 and WW2 although this population was usually considered Bulgarian before WW1 and has always been considered Macedonian after WW2. This is an obvious act of falsification of the censuses between WW1 anbd WW2.

Yugoslavia (not Serbia) did no such thing, the census in Serbia was carried out according to two objective criteria, mother tongue and religion. Nationality or nationaln conscioussness was not even an issue. -- Igor 4:30, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

If u want to remove the note, do so, but in that case the Ottoman statistics about Kosovo (which gives Serbs 10 to 15% of the population) should be placed in the previous section without any comment to it.

About the terms: in Serbian the period is usually called "Ottoman enslaving". Occupation surely is more neutral term. Nikola 08:42, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

--Response VMORO-- I believe the term in Serbian should be "Ottoman yoke", not "Ottoman enslaving". Anyhow, the term in English is 'Ottoman rule' or 'Ottoman domination'. This is an English-language website, not a Serbian one.

Occupation is most accurate. -- Igor 4:30, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

As for 'occupation': The Ottoman Empire ruled over Kosovo for ca. 450 years. The Serbs (the medieval kingdoms + modern Yugoslavia) dominated Kosovo for ca. 350 years. It is really a matter of personal opinion which rule should be called 'occupation'. For any Albanian the last 90 years will be certainly an 'Occupation'.

Well for starters we know, from the Turkish census in 1455 that Turks were not in the majority at the time whereas we do know that Serbs lived in Kosovo (with very few members of other nationalities) during the medieval kingdoms. That could be a telltale sign of the fact that the Serbian medieval rule of Kosovo was not an occupation as opposed to the Turkish rule over it. How's that? -- Igor 4:46, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

Factual accuracy and neutrality dispute

1) Factual accuracy. Noone has managed to point a single fact in this article which is not accurate. As for Bogdan's example, an article which would consist of the following:

Adolf Hitler was a quite talented artist and vegetarian, who, in 1930, rose to the position of the cancelar of Germany and successfully reformed the German economy. He was married to Eva Braun in 1945.

is completely factually accurate - there is not a single wrong fact in it and it would not deserve factual accuracy notice. It is not neutral, in that it ommits many important facts from Hitler's life, and could have NPOV notice - it is another thing alltogether. Even Bogdan says that "Although these are all true, it would not make it a fair and unbiased article." (emphasis mine). It would make accurate article tough. So, I am removing disputed notice.

2) Neutrality. Dori, VMORO and Bogdan claim that article is referenced "only from Serbian sources".

The sources are here:

• 1 Annexe I: British

Completely untrue, this is a Serbian memorandum by á Serbian organisation, it has nothing to do it with éither impartiality or neutrality VMORO

How do you know that? If it is something that a committee of the UK parliament considered plausible enough to include it in its report, I say it's good enough for Wikipedia. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 2 The International Criminal Tribunal For The Former Yugoslavia: International
• 3 (this source is not used in the article)
• 4 UNMIK Fact Sheet on Kosovo: International
• 5 Yugoslav censa: Yugoslav

Have I ever expressed any disagreements with the facts from these sources? No. Then don't mention them VMORO

No, but Dori claimed that most sources are Serbian. They aren't. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 6 Center for Contemporary Journalism: Serbian
• 7 Coordination Centre: Serbian
• 8 Peter Kukolj: Austrian

Have I experssed any disagreement with the facts by Kukolj? Have I erased them? Then don't mention that source VMORO

You didn't, bogdan did. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• 9 Kova?evi? Mr. E?ref, Hand?i? A., Had?ibegovi? H. Oblast Brankovi?a: Yugoslav
• 10 Joseph Müller: Austrian

So, of 9 used sources, only TWO are Serbian.

Yap and they are nationalist Serbian. But the problem is that YOU have CHOSEN only international sources which support a pro-Serbian view. That's all right ONLY if pro-Albanian sources are quoted, as well.

For example, of all 19-th century major Balkan ethnographers, it is only Muller, this Kukolj (which I have never heard of anywhere else) and to some extent Boue, which quote a Serbian predominance in Kosovo, all others portray Old Serbia as predominantly Albanian. And what do we get in the article? Muller and Kukolj. And no one else VMORO

As I have to say again, I haven't written the article. That's all nice and well, and I've never removed a pro-Albanian source from the article, but it was YOU who was removing some arguably pro-Serbian paragraphs without any justification. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Even if you count Yugoslav sources as Serbian (and I have counted FRY source as Serbian and SFRY as Yugoslav), it is only four Serbian sources of nine. Even if you would somehow count the Annexe I as, say half Serbian half British, it is still 4.5-4.5. Noone can say that non-Serbian sources are not used in the article, and I will add an UNHCR source about the refugees. So, I will remove NPOV notice as well.

Nikola 23:27, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Last round of reversions

Nikola, 04:24, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC): VMORO is reverting the article to a version by a new user, JayO. Here are the differences:

• NPOV tag. Fine with me either way
• Roman Catholic Albanians: no reason to delete this given. I don't have a solid source but in 17th century there were more Catholic Albanians than today, so it seems credible.

That's something you say. The vast majority of Albanians who adopted Islam did that in the 15th and 16th century. VMORO

That's something you say. Anyway, even if that is true, and there were, say, only 10% of Catholic Albanians this is still credible.

• A "Province of Kosovo" does not exist. When it existed, however, its western part was known as Metohija, as it still is today. It is linked, if someone doesn't know what it is they could click and see.
• "Müller also gives an interesting perspective..." Reason given for removing this was "delete unnecessary and emotional passages which can't be confirmed elsewhere". Source for this is, of course, #10, Dr. Joseph Müller, Albanien, Rumelien und die Österreichisch-montenegrinische Gränze, Prag, 1844, so it can be confirmed; it isn't unneccessary as it provides more detailed mentions of certain towns and it is not emotional.

Have Muller's approximations been erased? No. i

The rest of the article is mostly numbers and some explanations to those numbers. But in the case of Muller, we get a lengthy and wordy explanation (which is there only because it's pro-Serbian, of course). VMORO

That is soewhat true, but for example Weigand's numbers are given by districts. I don't see why Muller's observations about the districts wouldn't also be given, they could be stripped down, but no reason for their removal. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• had/there was - irrelevant

then why mentuion it? VMORO

To note that it is irrelevant. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• "British journalist H. Brailsford..." This could stay but I have no intention of inserting it while other paragraphs are deleted.

Yap, but I don't see the numbers of Muller erased. So what gives you the right to erase the numbers of Brailsford? VMORO

What gives you the right to erase observations of Muller? Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Most major/Other - Who counted them? And who says that they're major? Simply "other" is NPOV.

I have quoted 7 or 8 names. Are 7 to 8 ethnographers more than the two pro-Serbian ones you have quoted? Yes. The major ethnographers/cartographers of the Balkans before 1878 are several: Boue, Lejean, Muller, Mackenzie and Irby, Sax, Kiepert, Griesebach, Safarik, Hahn. Can you quote someone else who says Old Serbia had more Serbs than ALbanians? If you can, do so, if you can't, don't complain. VMORO

Those 7 or 8 names could be all there is, and for that matter they all might have been transcribing numbers from each other. Again I don't see why would these ethnographers be considered major and others not. Who says that they are major? And, as I said, I didn't wrote the article, but Igor will probably be able to provide more sources. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Occupation/Retaking - This is funny :)

450 years of Ottoman rule and 350 of Serbian. Why is the first one occupation and why is the second the "natural state"? No, it is not funny VMORO

Yes it is very funny. Any reference to retaking of Kosovo as "occupation" is completely unacceptable and you as a Bulgarian should know why. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Kosovo/teritorry of today's province. The province is formed after WWII, Kosovo is ambiguous
• "Serbian sources, which have not been confirmed by any other international source or institution" - This is stupid. Most sources here aren't confirmed by any other international source or institution. Are we going to say "journalist H. Brailsford, who has not been confirmed by any other international source or institution..."? Besides, I'm quite certain that these data are confirmed.

The difference being that Brailsford delivers an opinion (and that's how it is frased in the article) whereas the statement of those "unnamable sources" is referred to as a fact.

The difference being that Brailsford is an impartial observer (he is actually very sympathetic to the Serbs and quite negative to the Albanians), whereas the Memorandum is Serbian (i.e. it is a party in the dispute) VMORO

Otherwise, I certainly agree that it can be refrased. VMORO,

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. British politics and sentiment of Brits are for a long time anti-Serbian and pro-Albanian. The fact that someone is neither doesn't mean that they are neutral. Again, practically all sources used in the article have not be confirmed by any international institution (and what an "international source" might be?). Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• "After the province gained autonomy..." - This is well known, perhaps a source should be found but I see no reason for deletion.

The reason for deletion is the style: pro-Serbian, anti-Albanian, certainly not suiting Wikipedia VMORO

That is not true. It is pro-Serbian, don't see how it's anti-Albanian, but certainly is suitable for Wikipedia. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• NATO airstrikes/Kosovo War, Refugee Agency - whatever
• "driven by the Serbian army and paramilitaries ... in the worst campaign of ethnic cleansing in Europe since World War II" - this is not universally accepted and this article is no place to detail

This is universally accepted by everyone else except Serbia

That is not true. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And the only ethnic cleansning camppaign which can compete for being the worst is the one in Bosnia (also committed to a large extent by the Serbs). VMORO

You probably wanted to say upon the Serbs. However, a recent campaign of ethnic cleansing which can compete is one of Serbs from Croatia, and noone disputes that. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• "according to Serbian sources, a number, which is apparently overexaggerated as the non-Albanian population of the province has decreased by only 130,000 people between 1991 and 2002." - First,

the number is given by UNHCR, which is hardly a Serbian source. Second, as has been explained before, both the 1991 and 2002 numbers are estimates, while refugees are registered individually. The fact that the numbers don't add up means that the estimates are wrong, not that the number of refugees is wrong.

The last number that I saw quoted was 65,000 people. The statement (I'll check whether it is indeed from the UNHCR) is either outdated or wrong but even if it is right, I don't see the reason as to why only it should be in the article and nothing else. VMORO,

This is discussed extensively on Talk:Kosovo. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• "The claim that the 1991 census..." - perhaps could be toned down but I see no reason for removing it.

Again extremely bad style which would suit Slobodan Milosevic very well but has no place here VMORO

Nope

How valuable an argument this is! Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• And, Nikola, you have MANIPULATED the data for the Albanian population of Kosovo between WWI and WWII. You have placed information coming from that Serbian nationalist memorandum (and which is FALSE) among the official information from Yugoslav censuses. There were 440,000 Albanians in Yugoslavia in 1921 and at least 240,000 of them lived in Kosovo constituting A CLEAR MAJORITY OF BETWEEN 60% AND 70%. All this can be very easily proven by comparing statistical data for the number of Albanians in Yugoslavia in 1921 and 1948, and making an approximation using the number of Albanians in Serbia proper, Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro in 1948. This is a gross violation of any ETHICAL principles and clashes with pretty much everything that Wikipedia is about. VMORO

First, I have not written the article. I have only found sources for some of the disputed numbers.

Second, even if I have, there is no information from "that Serbian nationalist memorandum" (what Serbian nationalist memorandum?) in the article.

Third, all sources in the article are clearly marked and if one of them is a Serbian nationalist memorandum, everyone who reads it can just say "whew, these numbers are fake, they come from a Serbian nationalist memorandum".

Fourth, the numbers you are talking about might be possible, but so might be other numbers. I have no problem with you, or anyone, stating that in year X, there have been Y Albanians in Kosovo, according to source Z. But apparently you have problem with the article stating that in 1929 there were 61% of Serbs in Kosovo, according to source 1.

Let me add that your approximations based on subsequent cense have proven very fake regarding Kosovo refugees.

Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• As for the rest of your version of the article: it is strongly pro-Serbian, strongly anti-Albanian. It is written to justify Serbian claims to Kosovo, not to inform VMORO

Maybe the facts are strongly pro-Serbian, strongly anti-Albanian? Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

Of course, the anon is me. I have no time to login just to revert a single page.

By the way, I changed my opinion regarding NPOV notice. Practically no Serbian sources are used. Nikola 07:18, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I haven't changed my opinion: you either use Serbian sources or only sources which support a pro-Serbian view. VMORO,

That is not true, as you yourself said above. Nikola 12:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

By the way, might I mention the Wikipedia:Three revert rule policy to both you and VMORO?

Dori | Talk 07:56, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

Dori, might I mention to you that you are dealing here with Nikola Smolenski and also with a gross manipulation and distortion of facts? VMORO

---

I have returned 1929 and 1941 lines; as I said, if it is something that a committee of the UK parliament considered plausible enough to include it in its report, it's good enough for Wikipedia. In addition, some of other numbers mentioned in the text are confirmed by indepentent sources.

This is a Serbian memorandum and the data in it are falsified and corrupt. Albanians constituted the majority of the population in Kosovo in the interwar years, which can be easily seen on the map of the Yugoslav census of 1924, as published in Wilkinson's "Maps and Poltics. Review of the poltical cartography of Macedonia." This can be easily proved also by comparing the number of the Albanians in Yugoslavia according to the 1948 census and according to the 1924 census. The Albanians in Kosovo in 1924 were at least 250,000, which leaves them with some 60% majority in the region. Stop trying to falsify data and mislead readers. VMORO

I see no reason why would I consider this document less accurate than a map published in "Maps and Politics". Nikola 19:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Because it is published by the Serbian Information Centre in London, which IS A SIDE in the conflict between Serbs and Albanians over Kosovo.

First, it is published by a committee of the UK parliament. It has been submitted to it by the Serbian Information Centre, reviewed, and found worthy of publication. UK parliament is of course a side in conflict, but heavily pro-Albanian. Also, as you have been explained to above, Weigand's writings are drastically pro-Bulgarian, which was a side in conflict back then. Nikola 10:48, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nikola, please note that because it's been published by parliament doesn't mean to say that it's been endorsed by parliament. It wasn't "reviewed and found worthy of publication". The SIC provided evidence to parliament and its contribution was published as a record of its evidence - that's as far as it goes. Its worth or otherwise wasn't an issue. -- ChrisO 19:11, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It isn't endorsed, but it surely wasn't blindly accepted, it must have had some sort of review prior to the publication. The SIC provided it as an evidence, but it was accepted as an evidence too, by the committee. At the very least, it is clear that the committee trusted the SIC as the source of information. Nikola 07:04, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What has Weigand's pro-Bulgarian views have to do with Kosovo and the Albanians if I may ask?:-)) Muller is pro-Serbian, may be you should explain that, as well. And the UK parliament is certainly not a side in that conflict - unless, of course, we are not talking about a conflict of Serbia with the rest of the world.

VMORO

Now don't tell that you don't know about a few tiny wars between Bulgaria and Serbia around the time of that study...

Muller is not pro-Serbian. What makes his study exceedingly valuable is that it is made for internal use of Austrian army, so it had to contain real numbers, unlike studies which were made for general public and which could be shaped to their creators' liking. Nikola 07:04, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As for the map: it is a REDRAWING OF THE OFFICIAL ETHNOGRAPHIC MAP OF YUGOSLAVIA FOR 1924 PUBLISHED BY THE YUGOSLAV government in 1926, not by me or anyone else in 2004. VMORO

If a map shows Albanian majority, it could be 90% majority pr 50.01% majority. Please, give a source with numbers and I have no trouble in leaving it aside of ¹.

It shows quite clearly an Albanian majority in all areas of Kosovo where Yugoslav maps after 1948 have shown an Albanian majority. But that's not the question - the map (which is based on a map published by the Yugoslav government) is yet another proof that the data in that memorandum of yours is clearly cooked. VMORO

It is not true that number of refugees is estimated; refugees are registered. I have returned the previous sentence and added one more source.

There are different estimates - by the Serbian government, by the UNHCR, by the European stability pact. The Serban ones are, certainly, the most inflated ones. VMORO

Actually, it almost the opposite. UNHCR gives 220,000, Serbian government 242,381, and USCR (United States Comittee for Refugees) 277,000. Nikola 19:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And the European Stability Pact gives 65,000.

First, it not European Stabiliy Pact, but European Stability Initiative. Second, it doesn't uses information about refugee registration, but presents its own estimates based on subsequent censa, which are themselves estimates. Third, the organisation is funded by NATO (see Talk:Kosovo). Fourth, organisations which claim higher numbers are larger, older, more known, more respected, and come from all sides of conflict; ESI's report is a fringe view. Nikola 10:48, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A fringe report as defined only by you - it is a source as any other and its estimates have just as much place in the article as any other. Or should it be used only sources which suit you? And on top of it, if I use your logic, we should exclude the numbers given by the Serbian government as it is a direct side in the conflict. VMORO

My definition is correct. It is not a source as any other - it is a highly biased source made for the purpose of political propaganda. Other sources give no estimates of numbers but number themselves - total number of all people who have registered as refugees. Numbers given by the Serbian government are similar to numbers not given by Serbian government, so they could be considered correct. Nikola 07:04, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And correction: the USCR gives 243,000 refugees from

Kosovo in Serbia proper and Montenegro. VMORO

No, that is not true. Linked page ([11] (http://www.refugees.org/world/countryrpt/europe/yugoslavia.htm)) says "At the end of 2001, Yugoslavia hosted more than 400,000 refugees and about 277,000 internally displaced persons." All IDPs in Yu are from Kosovo. Number "243" is mentioned nowhere at that page. Nikola 10:48, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, that is true: you go to the home page of the USCR, click on Yugoslavia and find that currently there are 243,000 internally displaced persons from Kosovo into Serbia and Montenegro. VMORO

OK, it seems that there are two different pages.

One, at http://www.refugees.org/world/countryrpt/europe/yugoslavia.htm, says "At the end of 2001, Yugoslavia hosted more than 400,000 refugees and about 277,000 internally displaced persons." That one is linked in the article.

The other one, at http://www.refugees.org/world/countryindex/yugoslavia.cfm, says "At year's [2002's] end, there were 262,000 internally displaced persons in Yugoslavia, including 234,000 displaced from Kosovo into Serbia and Montenegro and 27,500 displaced within Kosovo itself.

Either way, it is around 250,000. Nikola 07:16, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

At the end of 2002, Yugoslavia hosted about 353,000 refugees, a 12 percent decrease from 2001. Nearly all are ethnic Serbs, the largest numbers from Croatia (228,000) and Bosnia (121,000). Around 3,500 Macedonian refugees, mainly Albanians, lived in Kosovo at the end of 2002, while 100 refugees from Macedonia also resided in Yugoslavia-proper. Yugoslavia continues to host the largest number of refugees in Europe.

And it is not true that there are only Serbian sources which claim that a number of Albanians enter Kosovo following the war. See above, coincidentally one of them happens to be Bulgarian.

By the way, I am thinking about moving from numerical to named references. It's silly to read the article when references don't show in the text in an ordered way. Nikola 14:29, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)'

Arithmetics and manipulation

And again about the false data in that memorandum: The 1921 Yugoslav census quotes 440,000 Albanians in the whole of Yugoslavia (out of 11,984,000 people). In 1948 the Albanians had grown to 750,000 (out of 15,841,000 people). The 1924 census does not list the population according to the regions such as we know them today (Serbia proper, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, etc.). The 1948 one, however, does that and according to it the Albanians in Yugoslavia had the following distribution:

• Kosovo: 498,000
• Serbia proper: 33,000
• Montenegro: 19,000
• Macedonia: 197,000

Between 1921 and 1948 the Albanian population increased by 70%, whereas the population of Yugoslavia generally increased by only 31%. If we assume that the Albanian population in the whole of Yugoslavia had the same growth rates, then we get the following distribution of the Albanian pop. of Yugoslavia in 1921:

• Kosovo: 292,000
• Serbia proper: 19,000
• Montenegro: 11,000
• Macedonia: 115,000

These numbers are only an approximation but should be rather close to reality. But even if we assume, contrary to all logic, that there were as many Albanians in Serbia proper, Macedonia and Montenegro in 1921 as they were in 1948, we'll still get some 200,000 Albanians in Kosovo in 1921, which corresponds to 45% of the population. And your memorandum, Nikola, which has nothing else to do with the House of Commons, except that it was sent to it by some Serbian information centre, quotes 39% Albanians, or some 170,000... So, there were more Albanians in Macedonia, Serbia proper and Montenegro in 1921 than in 1948?-:))) Stop trying to manipulate the text and the readers, Nikola, we are not that stupid.VMORO

I never manipulated anything. The article didn't claim that the figures are true - only that they are mentioned at a certain URL. (Which has a lot to do with the House, as it is part of their report.) What you claim sound plausible and might be true - if you find a respectable source with similar claims, add it to the article. Nikola 10:48, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, you did manipulate the whole section. You placed the data from the referendum which is NOT valid among the data from the official Yugoslav censuses which IS.

No, I have not. The data was there before, I have only found that it is referenced at that URL. Noone has offered any other source of information about this period, and I invited anyone to do so several times. Nikola

The memorandum has nothing to do with the House of Commons except that it has accepted it and has given green light for its publishing.

Now that's a good one. The memorandum has nothing to do with them... except that they've published it. We actually agree to this one :) Nikola

Which does not mean that the House of Commons agrees with what is written inside, nor that any data inside is correct.

No it doesn't. It however means that the committee of the House found it plausible. Nikola

And I don't have to look for "another respectable source" as your source IS NOT respectable. The memorandum is written by the Serbian Information Centre in London, which is as respectable a source with regard to the ethnic distributions in Kosovo in 1924, as any of the speeches of Slobodan Milosevic. I (and pretty much everyone else) can publish a memorandum which stakes any kind of claims: that the population of Kosovo in 1924 was predominantly Albanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Chinese or Eskimo, and send it to the House of Commons or any other parliament in the world, it is gonna have the same validity. VMORO

Why not try to prove this with an experiment? Write such a memorandum, send it to the House, and see whether they'll publish it as a part of their report :))) Nikola 00:59, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

note on link fixes

I didn't notice I was editing in the middle of a completely unrelated edit war... anyhow, the term "Ottoman-Habsburg war" should not be used because that doesn't exist in singular, there were many, and this particular 1683-1699 one is prefixed with "Great" usually. The term Krajina should not be used because it's ambiguous, the meaning is Military Frontier. The link Serbian should be disambiguated to Serbs and the term Ottoman should be linked to the Ottoman Empire as it is the first instance. (I'm not watching this page so if someone leaves comments, please notify me separately.) --Joy [shallot] 11:32, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"19th and 20th century ethnographers"

I am googling for people on VMORO's nice list - I of course don't believe that Google is the sum of all knowledge, but it can be nicely used to compare how often a knowledge is mentioned, that is, how trusted it is today.

When searching for "G. Lejean", google gives 81 hits[12] (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22G.+Lejean%22), and the first one is relevant. Similar cases are with some of other mentioned persons.

On the other hand, G. M. Mackenzie seems to be a frequent name[13] (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22g.+m.+mackenzie%22), but searching it in combination with "kosovo" gives 11 hits[14] (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22g.+m.+mackenzie%22+kosovo). To quote aeronautics.ru, "The two ladies, Mackenzie and Irby, traveled through the Balkans to show the essentially Slavic nature of the peninsula." At another page, they are listed as "missionares". I don't think that this translates to "ethnographers" so I will remove them from the list. Nikola 12:52, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• And I will put them back on the list and I'll add to "ethnographers" the word "travellers". And if you google again something in the near future, bear in mind that pretty much no one in the 19th century called Kosovo "Kosovo". The whole region together with the sandzhak of Novi Pazar was referred to as Old Serbia.
• Please stop placing Weigand after WWI. The data in the book is based on the pre-war situation in Kosovo in 1912 and is collected before the Balkan Wars and during WWI.
• Also, stop erasing Brailsford. Or should I erase also Muller and Kukolj next time I revert your edits?
• Speaking of them: I'll order the books by the two from the library and I'll check carefully the data you have quoted. I have reasonable suspicions that you have cooked them, as well.

Actually it was Igor who introduced these sources. I believe he may even provide page scans if needed. Nikola 01:08, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• It is a bit "odd" you haven't used the mother tongue data from the Yugoslav censuses between 1918 and 1941 whereas you have quoted the total number of the population of Kosovo from those censuses. Was that because the data didn't really suit the way you wanted this article to look like? Anyway, you cannot use the falsified data from a Serbian memorandum in the absence of the official data from the censuses. And I can only promise you that I am gonna find the data from the 1924 census - sooner or later, municipality by municipality. VMORO

Again, I haven't quoted it, it was there before. And I'll give it a try, too. Nikola 01:08, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Any luck so far? Nikola 07:41, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

---

About 17th and 18th century, Weigand nicely says "В края на ХVII век, заедно с преселването на австрийците и следващите ги славяни (1691), големи групи албански преселници тръгват на изток по посока към Враня, където постепенно заселват големи ивици земя, населявана преди това от сърби, които обаче побягнали към Банат, за да избегнат турския гнет. И в ХVIII век (1740) продължава изселването на сърбите към Унгария. Така Метохия и голяма част от Овче поле стават албански." Nikola 01:08, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, and what is your point? Weigand (and pretty much all the ethnographers I have quoted) is quite sympathetic towards the plight of the Serbs in Kosovo. VMORO

You haven't quoted a lot of ethnographers, anyway my point is that you were deleting this. Nikola 03:17, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

---

I'm looking now at these famed maps and have to say that they do not work as advertised. In all of them Serbs are prevalent in northern Kosovo and all of them show Serbian blob which covers southern Kosovo, Drenica and Metohija though it varies by size. Albanian blob to the east actually extends outside of the province (nicely visible at Lejean's map at [15] (http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/macedonia/maps/macmap_048.jpg)) and includes today's Presevo-Bujanovac-Medvedja areas, and in addition it seems that Albanian-populated areas are mountainous and thus more sparsely inhabited.

Yes, and I don't see anything contradicting to my statement in the text - that the Serbs predominated in northern Kosovo and Kosovo Polje. As for the Albanians in the Presevo-Bujanovac-Medvedja, aren't they still there or have you "relocated" them "peacefully", as well? VMORO

Except that your statement is that they have "identified the teritorry as predominantly Albanian". The maps hardly show that.

Yes, they are still there. Nikola 03:17, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Googling for the names, Barbarich could well be added to two ladies above, as it seems that he didn't do anything in his life except for making that map.

By the way, what happened to those Turks recorded in northeastern Bulgaria? Nikola 07:41, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

They are still there, Nikola. Anything you wanna know about them? VMORO

---

Missing image Kosovo_Lejean_1.png

Missing image Kosovo_Lejean_2.png

Missing image LEJEAN-MACKENZI.JPG

I have managed to find some time to take a better look at these famed maps, and as I said, they don't work as advertised. On Lejean's map, which I've downloaded from [16] (http://www.vmro-rousse.hit.bg/Karti/maps1.htm) I have superimposed modern borders from [17] (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/central_balkan_pol_2003.jpg). The first image shows the result and on the second I have painted the nationalities.

It turns out that, according to Lejean's map, Serbs lived on 870 pixels, or 39%, Macedonians on 99 pixels, or 4%, and Albanians on 1288 pixels, or 57%. That is not "predominance", that is simply a majority. Further, Serbs were majority in Mitrovica, Pec, Djakovica, Prizren and Pristina (and Kukes), while Albanians were majority in Urosevac and Gnjilane. Living in majority of towns and almost 50% of the terrirory, I'd say that this means that they were majority overall, but not wishing to guess I will write that the numbers were similar.

As the third image show, map of two ladies is so similar to Lejean's that it is tempting to believe that they might have redrawn it from his. However, where they differ, they show even less Albanians than in Lejean's map.

While searching for Lejean's map, I've also found a map by H. N. Brailsford, which, published as late as 1906, shows population of Kosovo to be 50-50% divided between Serbs and Albanians (he used lined pattern to show this). So I'll be adding it to the article. Nikola 01:05, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What was the whole exercise for, if I may ask? You have yourself proved that the Albanians (according to the map of Lejean) dominated 57% of the territory of Kosovo - this is called ethnic majority.

No it isn't. It isperfectly possible for an ethnicity to be present on 57% of territorial majority. Anyway, the point was to prove that the maps don't show "Albanian predominance", as the article was stating. Nikola 23:28, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The maps clearly show Albanian predominance in most of Kosovo with Serbian enclaves in the regions which have been enumerated. You yourself admit that according to Lejean, the ALbanians were the majority in 57% of Kosovo. And this is quite close to the percentage of Albanians (60-65%) before the demographic boom starting in the late 1960s. VMORO 12:43, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)~

I have nothing to admit - I simply state what I see. Yes, the Albanians were the majority in 57% of Kosovo. No, they were most likely not majority in Kosovo because most cities were inhabited by Serbs and the teritorry which Albanians inhabit is more mountainous.

Because of the "most likely" part, I will change this to "around 57% of the territory". Nikola 09:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, it is not, as you say that "Serbs were the majority in Mitrovica, Pec, Djakovica, Prizren and Pristina (and Kukes)". The superimposed map clearly shows the majority in Pec, Djakovica and Prizren was formed of ethnic Albanians - and in Pristina (in Kosoco Polje) and Mitrovica of Serbs.

No it doesn't. As Turkish Empire wasn't measured with then modern methods, geographers couldn't draw cities precisely as could be seen by Nis and Skoplje, or by difference in position of Nis on Lejean's and M&I's maps. However enclaves surrounding the cities are clearly visible on the maps, and are inhabited by Serbs. Nikola 23:28, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the map clearly shows the regions of Prizren, Djakovica and Pec to be predominantly Albanian with a Serbian minority VMORO 12:43, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)~

Yes, and it also clearly shows that Serbs actually live in those cities, which had greater population concentrations than regions around them. Nikola 09:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This is precisely what the text says, read carefully next time. Last but not least, you have taken only the map of Lejean which is indeed clearly the most beneficial to the Serbs. Can I ask why you have erased the other names?

No it isn't. The text was saying that they "have identified the teritorry as predominantly Albanian". That is not true. Albanians were slight majority at best, or minority at worst, that is not predominance.

Albanians are cleary a majority as demonstrated by the maps. If you put a different meaning in "predominance" and "majority", then we are disputing the term, not the fact, and that can be easily solved. VMORO 12:43, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)~

Of course the terms have different meanings, and of course the maps don't show that Albanians were clearly a majority. Nikola 09:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Map of Lejean is not the most beneficial, Map of Mackenzie and Irby is. Either way, these were the first maps on the list. Nikola 23:28, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

About Brailsford: he clearly says that 2/3s of the population of Kosovo was Albanian, compared to 1/3 Albanian. Can I ask for an explanation as to why you have erased that?

Because there is his map, for example at [18] (http://img67.exs.cx/img67/6475/brailsford.jpg), which doesn't say so. Nikola 23:28, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Brailford´s book is about Macedonia and he is not a cartographer like Lejean, Kiepert or Sax. His map of Kosovo shows only that the region has a mixed population, it is not representative for ethnic distributions. He clearly stated that 2/3s of the population of Kosovo was Albanian. So, I am asking again: why have you erased that? VMORO 12:43, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)~

How funny :)) If we are to include on this page only maps drawn by cartographers, then there would be noone left. Lejean was an ethnographer. He travelled extensively Northern Africa and wrote several books about his travels, but from what I can see he never visited The Balkans. The map is likely published in his "Ethnographie de la Turquie d'Europe" which is only an appendix to Petermann's "Geographischen Mittheilungen". Sax has at least visited the Balkans but he was Austrian consul, not cartographer, not geographer, not scientist at all. At last Kiepert was a cartographer, and the only one of all persons mentioned. Nikola 09:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I found very nice sweet maps of the religious distribution in Kosovo in the 1920s (on top of it in a Serbian source, which are accordingly added.

Religious distribution doesn't really say anything. Back then a lot of Serbs were Muslim and more Albanians Christian than today.

This is claptrap, there was no Muslim Slavs in Kosovo except for the Gorani. The source is Serbian, are you gonna tell me it is biased again? Yeah, it is indeed biased, it is so pro-Yugoslavian that it reeks. I want to have an explanation as to why you have erased the information from "Maps of our dividings"? VMORO 12:43, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)~

Of course there were, Serbs.

Ask yourself, why do you expect that I have to give any explanation to you? However, I will: I have deleted it because you have added it while reverting all of my work. If you have added it on top of it, it would be fine. If you revert, don't expect that I won't. Nikola 09:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If I might ask, why do you consider these maps "nice" and "sweet"? What could be so nice and sweet about some maps? Nikola 23:28, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest that you refrain from making reverts, the more you try, the worse it will get for you. VMORO 14:48, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

Take your advice yourself. You reverted everything I wrote, then added one dubious thing. I can't approve that edit. Nikola 23:28, 17 Feb 2005 (UTCt

Since you want it this way, you'll get it this way. VMORO 12:43, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)~

I want it this way? I did my homework, clearly stated the results on this talk page, and edited the article while clearly pointing to the talk page in the edit summary. Then I made other edits, each of which had corresponding summary. You have then reverted that, without stating any reason to do so. It is you who wants it that way. Nikola 09:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Something else: I would suggest that you go to the link [19] (http://albanian.com/information/countries/kosova/population.html). Can you see among the sources the entry "Miranda Vickers, Between Serb and Albanian: A History of Kosovo (New York: Columbia University Press, 1998)."?

Well, I just ordered the book from the library. And I expect to find there information about the population of Kosovo in the interwar period - also with a relevant source list where I can check and confirm the population data. Enjoy. VMORO 14:55, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

I will add the book to the sources. Not. From reviews I have seen, the book is quite biased. Next thing you'll be proposing is Noel Malcolm... Nikola 23:55, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is for me to decide whether it is biased or not. But it surely contains population data about Kosovo with a detailed bibliography. I have not forgotten my promise. Have a good day. VMORO 12:43, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)~

Since we both already know what your decision will be, there is no reason for you to make it. Nikola 09:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So:

• 1) The situation with the 19th century cartographers is clear now.
  • Yes, there are one (1) of them mentioned in the article. Nikola 17:33, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• 2) If you insist so much - add the info about Brailsford's map. The info in the book about

the population of the region, however, stays.

• • I'll try to find the famed book and see what is in it by myself. Nikola 17:33, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• 3) I haven't seen any argument from you against the census in 1921, as well as Maps of our dividings, so you might as well stop erasing them.
  • It is violation of Wikipedia's policies to edit articles with misleading edit comments. Nikola 17:33, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• 4) I'll get the book on Tuesday next week, so we are gonna talk again. Hopefully, this article ís facing a brave new future:-))))
  • Go ahead. Personally, I don't think you'll find in it any propaganda you haven't already heard of before. However, don't hope that you will succeed in rewriting an article based on 20 various sources with a single biased book. Nikola 17:33, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• 5) Please, list your comments below, not in between, it gets really hard to follow who said what and what is an answer to what.
  • I disagree. Nikola 17:33, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Bye-bye VMORO 17:07, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)~

Ethnic Map of a Part of Ancient Serbia

Strolling down the street, in a bookstore window I saw a very detailed ethnic map of Old Serbia, so knowing what love people who work on this article have for ethnic maps, I didn't hesitate to take a photo of it.

As one can see, the map shows that in 1870s, Serbs were majority population on the territory in question. However, it shows one even more interesting thing: that all major cities were inhabited by Serbs, while Albanians lived primarily in villages. Now I understand why there are those numerous Albanian nationalist sites proudly displaying "historical maps of kosova", which subtly show Albanian majority, and which have managed to find their way even to Wikipedia: if one is to draw an ethnic map without regard to population size, it would appear to show Albanian majority. For example, Djakovica, inhabited mostly by Serbs, was completely surrounded by Albanian villages, but itself had a population which dwarfs all surrounding Albanian villages taken together. However, on maps which don't show regard for population size, Djakovica would be appear to be a tiny Serbian island dot in Albanian sea.

Because of this, I will change all entries based on maps to clearly state that maps show that "Albanians live on most of the territory", and not that they are a majority.

I'm adding the map as source #22. Nikola 10:57, 1 May 2005 (UTC)