Talk:Cow tipping
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1. Cows don't sleep standing up. Horses do.
2. I grew up on a cattle-raising farm in Missouri. I never heard of cow tipping until I went to Harvard. When I asked my mom, dad, grandparents, aunts, and uncles to find out if anyone they knew had ever heard of such a thing, guess what? No one ever had. Guess what? These people ALL grew up on cattle-raising farms, too.
3. Your notion that cow tipping happens "in certain entertainment-starved rural places" confirms my suspicion that the myth of cow tipping is a corollary to the mocking superciliousness with which many hip urbanites regard farm communities.
Kelly M. Flynn
All correct, Kelly. I have edited the page to better clarify that cow tipping is an urban legend. David 21:50 Oct 3, 2002 (UTC)
I rearranged a bit so the paragraphs make more sense, and reverted the first sentence to "mostly" urban legend, since many people have in fact attempted the act believing that it was not mythical. --LDC
Lee Daniel, I like your reorganization, and I have tried to retain it. However, cow tipping is actually considered to be an urban legend, in spite of the fact that people have attempted to do it. Read the references and see if you agree with me that cow tipping is an urban legend.
Therefore, I have restored the description of cow tipping as an urban legend. I have omitted the word 'hoax'. Cow tipping is actually both an urban legend and a hoax, but I'm omitting the word in an attempt to make the article a little more NPOV and be more acceptable to you. David 22:29 Oct 5, 2002 (UTC)
If cow tipping is indeed an urban legend, why have farming communities passed laws against it? Don't laws tend to be enacted for problems that actually occur? (Or is this hopelessly naive?)
- Possibly because farming communities don't want people coming onto private property and pestering their livestock in hopes of tipping it over? Regardless of whether or not it is actually done, prohibiting it by law is intended to prevent people from even trying it, lest they or the cattle be hurt in the attempt (a 700 kg cow is perfectly capable of hurting someone if provoked).
- Having walked through pastures with herds of cows, I can confirm that, when provoked, those seemingly harmless animals are perfectly capable of attacking humans. I doubt it very much that a cow would let a group of unknown humans approach it and push on it enough to destabilize it. And I'm not even talking of bulls.
- Sometimes, farmers used to dealing with cows have accidents when their cattle is nervous (which may happen because of strangers, nervosity about calves, etc...). Think of what may befall people without the same experience. David.Monniaux 20:42, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
- Incidentally, does anyone else find it odd that this article states as fact that "cows are incredibly funny"? Publius 16:52, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- It's pretty easy to prove by algebra. I've only scanned the bovine comedy literature, but I'm not aware of a refutation. Anyone? chocolateboy 18:58, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- It's also pretty easy to prove logically that Trent Lott's haircut is Evil; that doesn't make it true. In any event, the fact that it has not been refuted is irrelevant: the burden lay on the person making the claim to prove it to be true. Something is not true because it has not been proven to be false; that's called argumentum ad ignorantiam. Publius 05:29, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of the theorem that cows are incredibly funny. Unfortunately, this Wiki is too narrow to contain it. chocolateboy 11:59, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
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Alleged cow tipping laws
Removed:
Some farm communities have passed laws prohibiting cow tipping, as the activity is likely to result in injury to the prospective tippers and/or to the cow.
Evidence? What kind of "laws" would that be? This seems like the kind of stuff added to urban legends to make them more credible.--Eloquence* 14:51, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
Urban Myth v Stand-Up
I've removed most of the "stand up comedy" stuff. IMHO, this article was funnier (and more Wikipedian) when it wasn't going overboard on the whimsy and "rib-tickling" pseudoscience. It's an urban myth, after all.
In particular, I've snipped or altered:
- "The Physics and Biology of Cow-Tipping" heading (sigh: that "routine" is done in the PDF, which is why I linked it in the first place).
- I've reinstated the original structure. The line "Some versions of the cow tipping story attempt to evade these objections" was rendered meaningless by the reordering.
I also object to (but haven't snipped) the warning, which suggests cow tipping is some kind of Jackass-like extreme sport, rather than a joke from Heathers.
I've merged most of the new material and retained (adjusted) headings.
chocolateboy 10:58, 27 May 2004
- I think the warning is a good idea. I don't believe that cow-tipping really exists; still, some unwary reader may get the idea that it does and try it, and get hurt. More annoying, that person may have attorneys that will claim that it's somehow Wikipedia's fault. This is far-fetched, but I reckon that American courts have granted damages based on equally silly claims. David.Monniaux 11:36, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
- This is far-fetched, but I reckon that American courts have granted damages based on equally silly claims.
- You may be right. But let us not forget that some of those silly claims are also urban myths [1] (http://www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.asp) :-) chocolateboy 12:02, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
- We do not need to go that far. I can recall a few times in the news when youngsters had grievously harmed themselves trying home-made chemistry or other experiments with explosives - and of course, nowadays, they are said to have viewed the instructions "on the Internet". Then, people blame the "irresponsible" people who had written such instructions. David.Monniaux 12:13, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
- I've incorporated the warning into the 'debuking' section. If BASE jumping and free-diving don't need safety warnings, I can't see cow-tipping does.Harry R 12:55, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
- A kid at one of the high schools in our district made thermite out of aluminum foil and rust from an abandoned car and a Mg strip he stole from school, and melted a 6 inch deep hole in the street in front of his house with it. WHile nobody was hurt, if they had been, I can see lawsuits over that kind of thing (which is why I don't give the (fairly obvious)) construction details in this comment). Pakaran. 14:50, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
Revisions
Hi ChocolateBoy, I'm a little disapointed that you pretty much reverted all the work I had done on this, as I put quite some time into it. I don't think that the version you put back is as good frankly. My concern especially is over the removal of the refridgerator analogy, which is much more similar than the car, the contextualisation of the sumo wrestler statistic, the traction issue and the dismissal of the University paper with one sentence. Also, I don't think the word 'Bovodynamics' is as appropriate as Zoology and physics'. I'd like to have a go at putting some of this back in, so please let me know your concerns so as to avoid ill feeling. ;) Mark Richards 16:14, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
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Hi, Mark.
I'm surprised to see that we're in disagreement over this. I thought I'd integrated your stuff pretty well.
The little I did actively snip, I removed for the reasons I gave above.
- My concern especially is over the removal of the refridgerator analogy, which is much more similar than the car
People tip cars (for instance in the Poll Tax Riots). When do people ever go refrigerator tipping?
I fail to see the purpose of the refrigerator analogy other than as yet another attempt to enhance the would-be slapstick aspects of the article contrary to its clear import as a wry (and dry) account of an urban legend. Of course it was never altogether humourless, but I think shoe-horning knockabout (and in particular fabricated) material into the article ruins the joke.
On top of which, the analogy appears to be yet another copy of a gag from the linked Skeptic article. We've already plundered whole sentences from that piece, which, as far as I can tell, is not available under a free documentation license.
cf.
Wikipedia
- Unlike horses, cows do not sleep standing and hence cannot 'lock their legs' as horses do.
Skeptic
- There is no such thing as a cow “locking its legs.” They don’t have to because cows sleep lying down (people may be confusing them with horses which do sleep standing up)
Wikipedia
- They also do not sleep in the same way as humans do. Most of their sleep is very light and easily disturbed - typical of herd prey animals. They take short naps at regular intervals throughout a 24 hour period, which means that at any given time, some members of the herd are aware and alert.
Skeptic
- Cows don’t sleep for hours at a time like people do. [ ... ] Most of their “sleeping” is very light—more what we would consider a very relaxed state. Cows [ ... ] take [ ... ] short naps of a few minutes each spread over a 24 hour period. Because each individual cow spends so little time in deep sleep most cows in a herd are alert even at night.
Wikipedia
- Cows have eyes in the sides of their heads, larege [sic], sensitive noses and ears as large as a human foot. They are not easy to sneak up on, and quickly communicate to the rest of the herd that something is amis [sic].
Skeptic
- They have eyes on the side of their heads so they can see in all directions and ears as big as feet for purposes of detecting possible attackers. One alerted animal easily transfers its concern to the others in the herd.
I'm getting bored of collating these. Need I go on?
- the contextualisation of the sumo wrestler statistic
I'm surprised that you chose to reject the construction of the sumo statistics that prevailed quite happily for a month before your edit i.e. that it would be near impossible for an average individual to topple a sumo wrestler whose mass amounts to a measly 140 kg; given that, imagine how much harder it would be to topple a cow! In contrast, your edit strikes me as somewhat odd:
- If we make the generous assumption that the person attempting to tip the cow is a sumo wrestler
Why?
- with a mass of the order of 140 kg (310 lb), prima facie [sic] it is unlikely to be budged by even the most determined human or small group, though it may be annoyed
The relative mass of the two objects says nothing about the potential for one to topple the other. That is determined by the centre of gravity and the load-bearing area [2] (http://www.containerhandbuch.de/chb_e/stra/index.html?/chb_e/stra/stra_04_03_07.html), two things you removed from the article during the course of your edit.
- the traction issue
Wikipedia
- In Tommy Boy Chris Farley in the lead role at once [sic] point attempts to tip a cow, stangin [sic] ancle [sic] deep in mud and cow pies, he is unable to perform the feat because he does not have enough traction between the ground and his feet, his feet slide out from under him, and the resulting commotion causes the stampeding cows to trample him.
Again, this appears to be another uncredited "bit" [3] (http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheFire.html) borrowed from another facetious (and funny) site:
Movie Physics Reviews
- In another scene, Farley goes cow tipping. He is standing in deep mud and cow pies, pushing against a cow. However, the coefficient of friction is too low between his feet and the muck to provide enough force to push the cow over, so he slips and falls face first into the mud and cow pies. This is a very good example of realistic physics. [4] (http://www.kent.k12.wa.us/staff/trobinso/physicspages/AP/movie/02/TommyBoy.html)
All very amusing, but what does it contribute to the exegesis or debunking of the urban legend?
- and the dismissal of the University paper with one sentence
- I didn't dismiss it. I edited it.
- The sentence now strikes me as clumsy and clunky.
- I introduced it to prevent further acts of comedy vandalism.
- On that last point, I'll be the first to admit: I failed.
- Also, I don't think the word 'Bovodynamics' is as appropriate as Zoology and physics
Fine. But "biology of cow tipping" is meaningless even by the deadpan standards of comedy pseudoscience.
- I'd like to have a go at putting some of this back in, so please let me know your concerns so as to avoid ill feeling.
You already have, without waiting for my reply...
If people want to appreciate the humourous potential of the subject they have several fine links at their disposal as well as two movies to check out. Attempting to turn this article into a comedy free-for-all is a sure way of getting it bitchslapped into Gradgrindian sobriety by someone with a smaller sense of humour (or a bigger sense of gravitas) than either of us.
I like the move of the "two cows" joke into Sources and Analogues by the way.
regards, chocolateboy 18:20, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
- OK, thanks for that - I had not actually intended the revision to be a standup gag - but appreciate your concern at overplaying the comedy. Feel free to go at the revision I made, or revert it if you like, I don't want to edit war over it, and got carried away before giving you a chance to reply ;). Re the Sumo wrestler, I had not imagined that the comparison was with Sumo wrestlers as things which should be tipped over, I was envisioning a sumo wrestler using his high mass in motion to create greater momentum for cow tipping. The greater the mass of the tipper, assuming they are moving, the greater the force that will be applied to the tippee, so to speak. I thought that a refridgerator was a more appropriate analogy since it more closely approximates a cows footprint, and I for one have engaged in fridge-tipping when moving house and trying to shift furniture. It is no easy task. Your mention that the University Paper 'can be dismissed' seemed a little brief - I tried to encorporate the central thesis of the paper, that the cow does not have to be moved as a dead weight, but rather acts as a lever system - I did not see any rebuttals of this.
- Anyhow, don't want to cause too much annoyance - revert it, or edit it mercilessly - it was something frivilous and lightweight to relieve stress after dealing with EnergyBone on Iraq and Sept 11. All the best, Mark Richards 19:17, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
Java game
It's probably not encyclopedic, but there is an excellent java game on the subject, the awesome Udder Insanity (http://www.designreactor.com/mutations/udder/game.html). Worth it for the sound effects alone. -- John Fader 18:25, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the image
It had nothing to do with cow tipping. I've replaced it with a picture of a cow. If we had a photo of people actually attempting to tip a cow, it would be best, although that would be difficult to arrange. Meelar (talk) 00:32, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
Thats fine - I didn't expect it to last up there as long as it did -- the only reason I liked it was that it showed the article was humourous, your version is much better --Davelane 15:05, 11 May 2005 (UTC)