Talk:Computer role-playing game

Contents

1 Move reason

2 Too focused on consoles

3 Console list too extensive

4 Removed POV addition

9 Squad-based TBS w/ RPG elements?

10 Not too many example RPGs, thank you!

11 Edits by Coll7

Move reason

I pushed this to "Computer role-playing game" because the name (and "CRPG" initials) is very common, it covers non-video RPG games (a strange concept to the under-30 crowd I suppose :-) ), plus that's what the industry award is called. Stan 19:13, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Too focused on consoles

This article looks too focused on console games to me... Ausir 15:27, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Perhaps we should create a new article called Console role-playing game and move all that junk to there (it exists, but is just a redirect to this article)? Then we open up the whole can of worms: Is a role-playing game played on a console still a computer role-playing game? Or is a different beast? Why? (Personally I think they are different, for the same reason that computer game is not a video game and vice versa). —Frecklefoot 16:54, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

My estimate is that there's not enough useful content to support a distinct console RPG article. What would you say, beyond listing publishers and games (which are better in a separate list anyway)? Better to have the few sentences of console-specific information embedded in the more general article. Unlike computer game/video game, the RPG restriction considerably shrinks the amount of stuff there is to talk about. Stan 17:33, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Um, okay. I do see a big difference between the two (namely, console RPG use the gamepad for movement/actions; CRPG's use the mouse and various keyboard shortcuts), but you are probably right that there is not enough difference (beyond the mentioned) to warrant a seperate article.

It would be nice to have a list for computer RPG's as well, however. Since I am not a big CRPG player, I can't generate the whole list myself. It might be nice to have just one list with notable games from both console and personal computer in one timeline. Just a thought... —Frecklefoot 18:00, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I started a list of computer RPG's, but it is far from complete. Any die-hard fans of the genre, please add to! —Frecklefoot 20:22, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sad case is, most RPGs simply are released for consoles. Don't get me wrong, there are numerous great PC RPGs available ( Hello Baldur's Gate addiction... ) but the majority come from various Japanese companies. And even then I'm just talking about the ones we hear about. Eris knows how many are released in Japan and never make it to the US/Europe. It's a bad thing, I would LOVE to get my hands on a properly ported, translated and voiced version of Lunar: SSSC for the PC in Europe. Not to mention any recent FF or La Puchelle Tactics for the PC. :( --DarkLordSeth 00:42, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Console list too extensive

I started formatting the "Chronology of Console RPG's" list so it better matched the computer list. But I noticed something. Look at the Chronology of Computer RPG's list. Almost every game listed there has an active wikilink. That makes sense. Since it is a list of notable RPG's, it makes sense that an article exists on the game. Now look at corresponding console RPG list. Only about half of the games listed (for those that even have wikilinks) have articles. I suspect that this is because they are not notable.

I think the list includes almost every Console RPG ever produced, which is contrary to the note at the bottom of the list. These entries would be fine for List of Console RPG's or some such thing, but not for the article. I'm not up on console RPG's, so I'd appreciate it if someone who is could trim out the more obscure titles. Otherwise, in a few days, I'll just take out all the games that don't have active wikilinks, assuming they are not actually notable. Then I'd be more than happy to continue formatting the list. :) —Frecklefoot 18:21, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Oops, also, what console is "MS"? That was listed as the console for a few of the games in the console list. That's not an abbreviation I'm familiar with. —Frecklefoot 18:40, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Maybe it's Microsoft X-Box? Ausir 19:08, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I had thought of that. But since it appears in 1987, it can't be. :S —Frecklefoot 19:14, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'd guess MS is Sega Master System. Nearly every list of "notable" or "popular" things in the Wikipedia becomes comprehensive given time. --Mrwojo 19:47, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree that we should limit the list to games that have Wikipedia articles. Ausir 19:53, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

To Mrwojo, I don't mind having a list of games that are actually notable. But it looks to me that the list includes way more than just notable Console RPG's. If someone wants a comprehensive list of all Console RPG's, that's fine. But that's a seperate article and not appropriate for this article. —Frecklefoot 19:59, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It looks that way to me too. While it's difficult to define notable, it's easy to insert a game into a list. --Mrwojo 22:43, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

In general, editors agree that "notable" means "notable enough to have an article". Of course, that doesn't stop fanboys obsessing over something obscure. You could try Stan's "rule of a thousand" - the game should have affected at least 1,000 people during its existence, counting all of customers/players/developers/publishers/reviewers etc. Stan 01:07, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sound good to me. :-) I'll append that with "...publishers/reviewers etc. who actually use Wikipedia." If the list doesn't get trimmed within a few days. I'll just remove the games that don't have articles since, as I said, I'm not up on the console scene. Anyone object? —Frecklefoot 16:48, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Removed POV addition

DarkLordSeth added a paragraph to the end of the Modern games section. It is highly POV and, thus, against Wikipedia standards. It has some valuable insights, but unsuitable in its current state. If someone wants to take a crack at NPOV'ing it and putting it back in, it is below. — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:56, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)

It should be noted, however, that the RPG genre in computer games is already a watered down version of the non-electronic genre. For example, quite a number of recent CRPGs follow a single linear storyline ( sometimes with minor sidequests ) without real interaction. For example, conversations in CRPGs are mostly scripted where one can choose between several preselected replies. With a pen-and-paper RPG, one interacts with the gamemaster who is ( usually ) not limited to predefined answers to predefined questions. CRPGs are also inflexible compared to pen-and-paper RPGs. For example, in a CRPG the player might be required to shut down and illegal mining operation by entering the mines and dealing with the person in charge. While there are sometimes multiple predefined options available, most of the time the storyline will expect the player to descend into the mine and take of things. In an pen-and-paper RPG, the options are far more diverse. The player(s) might divert a small river to flood the mine, cast spells that would cause the mine to collapse in a massive earthquake or call upon fire support from artillery, bombers or orbital weapons. ( Depending upon game setting. ) Inventive players can even solve it differently, playing upon the greed of the person in charge of the mine and simply buying it, sending down a group of mercenaries to deal with the mine or informing the local authorities and letting them deal with the situation at hand. This kind of flexibility, along with dynamic storylines, is usually not found in CRPGs.

How about this? (Needs wikifying)

A common complaint regarding CRPGs is the apparent linearity of the scenario. For example, quite a number of CRPGs follow a single linear storyline ( sometimes with minor sidequests ) without real opportunity to chose the ultimate path of the narrative. For example, conversations in CRPGs are mostly scripted where one can choose between several preselected replies, or enter one of several predefined keywords. It can be claimed that a gamemaster based paper and pen RPG is more adaptive, and lends greater unpredictability to a game. CRPGs are also inflexible compared to pen-and-paper RPGs. For example, in a CRPG the player might be required to shut down and illegal mining operation by entering the mines and dealing with the person in charge. While there are sometimes multiple predefined options available, most of the time the storyline will expect the player to descend into the mine and take of things. In an pen-and-paper RPG, the options are in argueably more diverse. The player(s) might divert a small river to flood the mine, cast spells that would cause the mine to collapse in a massive earthquake or call upon fire support from artillery, bombers or orbital weapons. ( Depending upon game setting. ) Inventive players can even solve it differently, playing upon the greed of the person in charge of the mine and simply buying it, sending down a group of mercenaries to deal with the mine or informing the local authorities and letting them deal with the situation at hand.

However, this is not neccessarily true. With a gamemaster led RPG, much depends on the personality of the gamemaster himself. An unsuitable gamemaster can force far greater linearity than the programming restraints of a CRPG. Further, while an extensive series of solution may exist in paper and pen RPG, usually they are not taken - use of orbital weapons for example would usually be disallowed, purely for the purpose of balance, or maintaining a consistent game world. The degree of nonlinearity also varies between CRPGs. Fallout for example has multiple ways of defending its end boss, including a pacifist approach. Many MMORPGs, such as Everquest have also allowed player interactions to remove any linearity, and create a much more dynamic game world.--Fangz 19:04, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think, now, that it all boils down to wether or not some of the linear CRPGs should be regarded as RPGs to start with. For example, a typical linear CRPG would be Final Fantasy VII. The player doesn't actually "play a role" as much as "guide a character through a predetermined script". The statistics are defined by the game at the start and at best the roleplaying will consist of a minigame or making a minor selection that doesn't affect the global storyline at all. It would seem to me that games like that can hardly be considered a role playing game, but more an interactive story. The same can be said about PnP RPGs and GMs, depending on the playing style used by the GM ( and the experience of said GM ) along with the players. I think that if we for a second forget about "interactvie stories" then the whole deal becomes a bit clearer. However, I don't think this is the place for discussions wether some games actually are RPGs or not, but if anyone is interested in discussing this in more detail, please let me know. As for the article, I agree with the improvements, even though I would like to add a fe bits to the second para you've added. Mind if I have a go at it? Critique, comments, flames, all are welcome! :)

However, this is not necessarily true. It is arguable that with a gamemaster led RPG, much depends on the personality, experience and imagination of the gamemaster himself. An unsuitable gamemaster can force far greater linearity than the programming restraints of a CRPG. Further, while an extensive series of solutions may exist in paper and pen RPG, usually they are not taken by the players for various reasons such as time constraints ( both in game as in real life ) and enjoyment. It is reasonable to assume that players usually pick the most interesting and potentially most fun solution. The degree of nonlinearity also varies between CRPGs. Fallout for example has multiple ways of defending its end boss, including a pacifist approach. Another example would be Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic, where the player's choices carry consequences throughout the entire game and affect both the storyline and the eventual ending. In contrast, it might be argued that the Final Fantasy series in general sports a very linear storyline, where the player is limited in affecting the flow of the story. Many MMORPGs and MUDs, such as Everquest have also allowed player interactions to remove any linearity, and create a much more dynamic game world. Usually, storylines aren't part of the gameplay in either MMORPGs or MUDs though. Instead, these online RPGs generally focus more around occasional unrelated quests ( both prescripted as well as improvised ) created by the gamemasters. DarkLordSeth 00:21, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Oldest Console RPG

The oldest console role-playing game is not Dragon Warrior/Quest for the NES as previously claimed, but rather AD&D: Treasure of Tarmin for the Intellivision (1982). There was another Intellivision AD&D game (originally just called AD&D, later titled "Cloudy Mountain) which was an action/adventure game rather than a true RPG. Treasure of Tarmin might not be the oldest console RPG, but I'm reasonably sure it is. --Crunchy Frog 04:36, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm having a debate with a friend whether Treasure of Tarmin is actually the oldest console RPG for the console vs. Dragonstomper for the Atari 2600. Both were released in 1982. Anyone have any release dates on these two? WillDarlock 15:48, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Temple of Apshai?

Someone who knows more about it than me should add the 1979/1980? game Temple of Apshai (and its sequels) to the discussion of early computer RPGS. While you're at it, someone make a page for Temple of Apshai -- that was a few years before I started playing with computers, and I'd really like to read about it. :)

Pictures: http://www.thelegacy.de/Museum/3110/ --Crunchy Frog 05:04, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I used to love that game. I should really get off my butt and write the article one of these days. Really lame compared to today's standards, but just about the best CRPG in its heyday. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:12, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

There, how's that? :-) It should be added to the article somewhere, since it was so popular. MobyGames says it was a 1980 game, but someone may want to check on that. Anyway, it should be added to the article under the correct date. — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:59, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Screenshots

You know, this article is fairly complete now. All it needs is some nice screenshots to dress it up. Anyone actually have any of these games and can grab some frames? I think game screenshots are covered under fair use. — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:12, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I added some from other articles, but it could use more. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:41, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Action RPGs

How are we dealing with Action RPGs? I can't seem to find any mention of them anywhere. I think it should at least get a description, if not it's own article. Also, why the absence of the Zelda games, not only here, but in the Chronology article? I fail to see how Crystalis is more worthy of mention. Mole 16:50, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Squad-based TBS w/ RPG elements?

Is it possible to mention these games these games that have many RPG elements, but are also considered squad turn based strategies like X-Com: UFO Defense and Jagged Alliance? --67.123.74.233

I've played both (both are excellent), but I wouldn't consider either an RPG. But, sure, if you want to mention them, go ahead. Be bold! Next time, please sign your post. You can do this with either 3 or 4 tildes (~~~ or ~~~~). The latter is preferred, as it also leaves a timestamp. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:01, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Don't really consider them RPGs either, mainly because you don't play a character yourself in either of those games. You assume a commanding function over a group of soldiers, but you don't actually go in detail about the characters or their personal storylines as is common with RPGs. Also, the focus on those two games is action, more so then storyline or character development. I'm not for sure about X-COM: UFO Defense though... It is the same game as UFO: Enemy Unknown, aye? Ps, Frecklefoot, could you please give your comments again on the addition I made a while ago that has been moved to this talk page? ( Item nr 4 ) Ta! :: DarkLordSeth 20:12, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, Jagged Alliance 2 does have some character-insight voice-overs. For example, you can tell Fox is attracted to Grizzly by what she says about him. You can really tell Buns hates Fox and the interaction between the two really hinders any missions you try to undertake with both of them. That's role-playing. :-) But you're right--you don't really assume the identity of any one of the characters--except maybe the leader--but that is common with all RPG's. Perhaps X-COM doesn't really fit because the player doesn't assume the ID of any of the soldiers--he just orders them around.

Also, the focus of those games isn't action. It is combat, but it is turn-based, so it is very strategic like many P&P RPG games tend to be. As for story, the originator of D&D, Gary Gygax says that scripted storylines for RPGs are BS--he said the characters should create the story, not the other way around. That is very much what the player does in X-COM and Jagged Alliance.

As for your addition, I haven't been keeping up with the thread. I trust your jusgement and the judgement of the others participating in that thread. The only thing I found POV was the "watered-down" comment. If that was gracefully removed, it could be put back in. Like I said, it had some good, useful information. — Frecklefoot | Talk 22:02, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

I have to admit I don't have too much experience with any Jagged Alliance games, especially the story lines because I kept getting my butt handed to me by the computer. Hence why I never got very far into the storyline. Regardless, it might be open for interpretation as to wether on not JA can be considered an RPG. I don't recall the player actually roleplaying a certain character or getting involved into character development to start with. But the whole definition of CRPGs is vague at best; Any recent Final Fantasy can easily be seen as an anime movie with savepoints, lately. Due to the inherent single-player nature of CRPGs and the inability of computers to improvise a game setting, CRPGs remain a vague point, to me, at least. My views on this can be read at the item nr 4 in this talk page. :)

Besides, a lot of games feature voice-overs and the player assuming the role of the hero or an unnamed leader type character that affects the outcome of the game and the development of the story. We could add nearly ANY game to the list of CRPGs then, ranging from Commander Keen, Command & Conquer up to Doom 3. Maybe we're confusing a storyline with actual roleplaying here? But that would lead back to CRPGs not being actual RPGs... Argh! I'm going in circles... :(

Anyways, the definition of CRPG might be expanded to include games like the Jagged Alliance series; I'm not the sole authority that decides on this matter. However, those games already fit nicely in their own genre, tactical squad based games. Still, not up to me to make the final decision on this matter. Would be interesting to hear what others think of this matter... :: DarkLordSeth 01:24, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Most computer and video games today do not fit nicely into one genre. The reason I think Jagged Alliance fits (and I didn't see the connection until 67.123.74.233 brought it up) is that in Jagged Alliance, the player (a) assumes the role of one main character (and controls others) and (b) the characters change over time (as they gain experience, etc.). Commander Keen, for example, doesn't change at all except maybe getting better weapons. The squadees in JA do change over time as they gain experience.

That being said, the squadees in X-COM also gain experience and get better with time. But the player doesn't really assume the role of any one of them. So the X-COM games (at least the first two) would only half-fit into the CRPG genre. Just my $.02... :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:58, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Alright, I'll have to admit that Jagged Alliance does come over as a game with some particular RPG-like influences. Pretty much in the same way Deus Ex and Warcraft III have a few very RPG-like influences But all three aforementioned games have a different focus regarding gameplay. JA is a squad based tactical simulator, Deus Ex is a first person shooter and Warcraft 3 is a real-time strategy game. Still, it would be hard to deny the fact that they are partly RPGs, or at least incorporate some rather obvious RPG-like elements in them. The RPG elements are reduced to storyline enhancement, not the actual main gameplay element, so calling them full RPGs would be kind of silly in my humble opinion.

Maybe worthy of a section on this page referring to the fact quite a few games these days use a number of CRPG characteristics? I don't know, might be a good idea though. Not by me today though, got a birfday, woot! Anyways, my € 0,02 :P :: DarkLordSeth 17:59, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not too many example RPGs, thank you!

Pleas please PLEASE keep the list of example RPGs nice and shiny and most importantly SMALL. I'd prefer having a list of 10 to 15 of the most influential RPGs on a PC and console basis. No more, no less. I mean, adding all sequels to an mildly important RPG series would be pointless. Just put up a "somethingsomethingyaddayadda series debuts" at the appropriate year and no more.

Or maybe something like this to cough up a nice and detailed list of PC CRPGs, while only putting truly great and/or original CRPGs on the main CRPG page? :: DarkLordSeth 02:09, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree, let's just include the really notable ones (e.g. Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Baldur's Gate, etc.). The sequels and such should be omitted unless truly groundbreaking in some sense (e.g. Ultima III). The just "good" RPGs that weren't too notable or whatnot can go in that list you linked. Let's start widdling away! — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:13, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

Edits by Coll7

I reverted all the edits by Coll7. Not only did he get a lot of facts wrong (D&D was first published in '74, not '75), he turned the article into a gush on how Dungeon was the first dungeon crawl. There were like 5 paragraphs on it! Other additions he made were highly POV. Since he wrote a whole article on Dungeon, I included it in the Chronology (most of what he added to this article was just a restating of the article), but I'm, not convinced it was widely used or recognized. — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:31, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Response:

1. Year error -- yes, you're right, and boy is that embarrassing for me. I received my D&D 30-year anniversary book in 2005 and had one of those "Wikipedia warns you not to do this" brain gaps by not checking my dates.

2. This also means that Dungeon probably first hit in 1975 rather than 1976, since it trailed D&D by about a year and I had used the D&D year for my estimate.

3. "Gush" comment. This may in part have been chauvinism on my part (I'll reread now that a week has passed), but I also think this relates back to whether someone was on a DEC system or on a PLATO system. Those on PLATO know little and have no personal history with the games distributed by DECUS, and vice versa. As a DEC person I have read about the PLATO games and recognize they were important to a lot of people, but our "alumni" group has no personal link. I'm sure that to PLATO veterans the DEC games seem equally out of left field as "I don't know who was playing those games, but I sure know what I was playing!"

I have encountered a lot of people from each "family line" over the years, but I think the PLATO system lasted longer and supported more users per system and thus very well may have touched more people.

I think the solution is to (without getting too long) create two strands, one for PLATO and one for DEC, and acknowledge that there was little interchange between the two. I'd be happy to take another crack at the DEC strand with a "watch for overenthusiasm" bent. If the DEC stuff I added was a gush, then the dnd article as written is even more-so, and perhaps it would be worth someone from the PLATO alumni looking it over for tone as well.

Thanks, and please accept my apology for screwing up on my fact checking on the year issue. --Coll7

I don't think an in-depth look into which game was the first is really appropriate here. Rogue is generally recognized as the first CRPG and touched an enormous number of people and still does today. Since it was distributed with the Berkeley Software Distribution of Unix, thousands of people played it as soon as it was completed.

I think mentioning those others is fine, but they really didn't shape the genre of CRPG the way Rogue did. You might want to look at the Rogue or Roguelikes article for an appropriate addition. But please don't go on and on about the games—that's what your article is for. Just mention enough to give it context.

Next, please sign your posts. I added your sig to the comment above, but you can add your signature by typing 3 or 4 tildes (~~~ or ~~~~). The latter is usually preferred since it also adds a timestamp. Peace. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:51, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

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