Talk:Christopher Columbus

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Long, sordid previous discussion archived at Talk:Christopher Columbus/Archived talk since the page is getting too long to edit in some browsers.

See also Talk:Christopher Columbus/Archived talk 2 with even more slave explorer trade banter.

Here's some links that quote from Columbus' diary.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columbus1.html (really good one)
http://admin.muslimsonline.com/babri/columbus3.htm

He says, on first meeting Arawaks:

I was very attentive to them, and strove to learn if they had any gold.

Which would indicate that wealth was his primary motivation. So, he's a bastard and he took slaves, but I don't think that was his goal in the first voyage.

It is not such a strange thing that they wanted gold. It was not uncommon to trade worthless (to the Europeans) glass beads for worthless (to the Indians) gold. Such is the nature of trade. We only think that the Europeans ripped off the Indians because we think like Europeans. Now of course killing them for gold is bad, but who wouldn't want to be paid for their work? This voyage was a trade mission and like any business venture, it needed profit. He is hardly a terrible person because he wanted wealth. If so, we are all in big trouble most likely! -- Ram-Man

I'm most impressed by the fact that what is presented to elementary-school kids about Columbus is carefully sanitized to remove references to brutality towards natives, taking of slaves, cutting off of hands and ears, lust for gold, etc. That would be like talking about Charles Lindbergh but neglecting to mention the fact that he supported the Nazis... oh, wait.

Thankfully we at wikipedia can do better. Graft

Lindbergh? If you're talking about active support I think Henry Ford would be a better example.

I linked the article to Perceptions of Columbus which outlines good and evil archetypes of Columbus. It's a charged subject (like Palestinian homeland) -- and might be used as a proxy for larger issues, like imperialism and so on. --Ed Poor

Perceptions of Columbus seems well incorporated into the main article here now, so I changed it to a redirect to Christopher Columbus. Infrogmation 20:16 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Christopher Columbus (Spanish: Cristóbal Colón, Italian: Cristoforo Colombo, 1451-1506) was a Genoese trader who crossed the Atlantic Ocean and reached the Americas in 1492

Lir, you changed "Genoese explorer" to "Genoese trader". Please don't get bent out of shape, if someone thisk Columbus was primarily an explorer -- even if he was also a trader.

You might want to add a sentence or 2 later in the article, which talks about Columbus's career as a trader. When and where did he trade? What did he trade in? If his cargo included human beings, then we might call him a "Genoeses explorer and slave trader".

When writing an article, as your English teacher probably told you, it's good to follow up introductory thoughts (like trader) with additional information: like "Columbus spent the rest of his life making journeys of exploration and trade across the Atlantic, amassing a small fortune from profits on stolen gold and kidnapped natives whom he cruelly sold into slavery in Spain, Italy and Corsica." (Note: I completely made up the last sentence; it's an example of the kind of information which, if true, justifies calling Columbus a trader.)

Get it? --Ed Poor 23:55 Oct 22, 2002 (UT

Lir, when the page gets too big, sometimes you can't edit expecially with Internet Explorer. Some of this probably needs to be archived. But really, IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT it is so full. Fredbauder 00:09 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Most browsers on MacOS are vulnerable to this, maybe others too; the edit box craps out at around 32k of text. We were up to about 38k... I've moved old stuff to Talk:Christopher Columbus/Archived talk. --Brion 00:17 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Ummmm....k. Columbos should be called by his proper Italian/Spanish name. Lir 00:18 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Well, right or wrong that's not how he's called in English. --Brion 00:23 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

But that is how he is called in English. When your friend Juan shows up to party do u call him John? When your friend Franz shows up do you insist on calling him Frank?

I'd call them by the names that everyone else who knows them use to call them in English; since you've postulated in English that they are Juan and Franz, that is, ipso facto, what they are called in English. A certain overcelebrated washed-up Genoese entrepreneur of low moral fiber is known in English as Christopher Columbus. A certain 1st-century Jewish rabble rouser is known in English as Jesus. A certain 20th-century American politician is known as Jimmy Carter despite technically being James Earl Carter, Junior. An island not far from Europe is known in English as Ireland, as is the country that resides on it. A certain country on the mainland is known in English as Russia. Yadda yadda yadda. From your one-note strawman argument I can only assume that you don't actually read anything I've been writing on this subject, or that you're simply trolling. Please feel free to prove me wrong by responding intelligently to the content of other peoples' replies. --Brion 01:11 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Right. A person called Ioannes who hung out with Jesus is rightly referred to as St. John in English, San Juan in Spanish, etc. Certain persons have entered the cultural consciousness enough to justify local adaptations of names. It's simply too hard to reverse. No westerners will be calling India "Bharata" any time soon, no matter what India calls itself.

Ummmmm...k- what language *is* "Italian/Spanish"? Is that like Esparanto?

Ho jes, Kristoforo Kolombo!

One of the "sources" listed on the old talk page states that Columbus killed 8 million natives. That's pretty remarkable given that if he killed one native per minute, day and night, non- stop, it would have taken him about 16 years straight. Maybe Columbus invented the nuclear bomb, too?

I believe they are referring to those killing under the orders of Colombo. It is akin to saying Hitler killed 12,000,000.

But if he was a slaver, why would he destroy his "stock"?

Surplus? (or in words attributed to GHW Bush, "Useless eaters"?) -- Kwantus 19:32, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Are you sure you're not confusing Colombo with his followers ? Maybe he was a slave trader, that's no reason enough to order to kill millions. As far as I know, he did not stay long in America. No way he could order or would have ordered such killings. FvdP

You know...Colombo was a hero of Hitlers...

This overheard argument proves absolutely nothing. Hitler liked Eva Braun. Eva Braun did not order to kill millions. FvdP

Let me clarify, Colombo was a hero of Hitlers because Colombo was so effective at extinguishing the Untermensche.

Yet another unsubstantiated claim.... I'm not following you on this. And, I note that you cleverly avoided to answer my original argument: Why and how would CC have ordered to kill millions? FvdP

Lir, first: please sign your comments. It makes it easier to understand who said what, and I think we agree that communication is important. Second: Please remember that when you're making claims that go against accepted belief, you have to back those claims up. People want to know who said this thing that they do not believe so they can read it in further depth for themselves. Finally, please understand that you may not ever change anyone's opinion. Some people listen, some people don't. Some people care, some people don't. You may be right, you may not. :-) --KQ

Im making claims that lots of people here agree with and have submitted evidence for. Some people are refusing to make any effort to understand the subject. Lir 01:12 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

And you're still avoiding efforts to answer my argument. I'm not sure were your lot of people are, since I'm not one of them. Like KQ wrote better than I would have, I'm ready to accept reasonable evidence, after I examined it. If "understand the subject" means "accept bare claims as Lir writes them down", then surely I refuse to make that "effort". --FvdP

Hitler did vocally admire the policies of exterminating Indians by both Columbus and the American government (I will attempt to find a source right now). I think the high number is a combination of people killed directly by columbus, by his men on his orders in order to subjugate the natives by frightening them, directly or indirectly killing slaves in transit to Europe, and him and his men introducing (albeit accidentally and without their knowledge) diseases such as smallpox and syphilis to which the natives had no defense to. Tokerboy 01:13 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Hitler was not a all-encompassing genius. He may be wrong on Colombus. Further, there is a claim of million victims here. Apart of diseases, I don't see where these victims come from. And if it's by disease, it's unintentional. Really a different thing that "ordering to kill millions". And probably not due to CC alone. (Well, I may cease the discussion anytime soon without a warning, lest it becomes just endless.) FvdP

See? Im not on krak but George Bush is... Lir 01:14 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

15th-century Europe was largely unaware of [Americas'] existence I added "largely" because it's likely there was traffic between Europe and the northeast part of the Americas...The Nova Scotian gov't has recognised the Henry Sinclair theory far enough to erect monuments to it. Some suspect precolumbian fishing settlements,;.not overwinter things but catch, dry, and go home arrangements. IMO "America" was a somewhat-guarded secret on which Columbus blew the whistle. -- Kwantus (indeed further down the same paragraph is that basic idea. Kwantus 19:32, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC))

I was surprised to see the current portrait of Columbus in favor of the well-known and well-regarded portrait by Sebastiano del Piombo which is really easy to find

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=Columbus+Piombo

I've never even seen the current portrait before. For an interesting read, I suggest Looks Are Deceiving: the Portraits of Christopher Columbus (http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/lester/writings/admiral.html), but I think the article would be better with the del Piombo portrait. Daniel Quinlan 10:01 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Add it to the article - this article is long enough for both. I suggest moving the current photo down near the paras talking about his later life since the etching is of an older Columbus. --mav 10:05 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

picture of "columbus" at top of page

No one today knows what Columbus looked like as there are no extant portraits of him. There are references to his having been a redhead and to having had a strong, but average physique.

Yes, I know this. The portrait we're currently using is not all that well-favored. Daniel Quinlan 18:10, Aug 13, 2003 (UTC)

The first paragraph is very biased. These facts should be presented in the document, but certainly not in the introduction.

"It has not been claimed that Columbus was Armenian."

What the heck is this? Is someone taking the piss? -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 17:44, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

Look, Daniel, there's NO GOOD REASON not to mention slavery or killing of natives in the introduction. If you want to keep the text "succint" there are many other things you could remove, or you could condense verbose text. Your desire to have a wonderful, positive portrayal of Columbus and avoid mention of unpleasant realities in the introduction is NOT appropriate. Graft 19:33, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Did you read my change? All of slavery, killing, and exploitation are mentioned in the introduction. Should I add < font color=blood > too? Daniel Quinlan 19:55, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sure why you would want to remove mention of Las Casas, who is certainly one of the most significant figures connected to Columbus. Graft 19:33, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

He's mentioned in the body, but does not warrant a specific mention in the introduction, no more than Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile who are also not in the introduction. Las Casas is also somewhat more well known for writings about post-Columbus events. Daniel Quinlan 19:55, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I read your change: it removes mention of specific acts of Columbus and turns killing, slavery, etc., into general things which followed in his wake. That these were,in fact, things Columbus himself did is extremely significant in informing the reader about the nature and life of Columbus.

Re: las casas, he's the primary source for Columbus' journeys... I think he deserves mention in the introduction, but I'm not going to press it too hard. Graft 20:22, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The text right now is considerably lacking in the area of Christianity: Columbus himself felt he was inspired by a divine mission, and writes about it frequently. Furthermore many Catholics view his explorations as part of a divine plan... any ideas on this and how we might address it? [1] (http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0196_Columbus_Christian_C.html) Graft 20:22, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Just a note: I think it's common for Christians to attribute great inspiration to God. Sometimes, they even say God "spoke" to them. Most Christians don't mean that they literally heard the voice of God, though, when they say that, they just mean they felt something in their heart, etc. Daniel Quinlan 20:44, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

Beyond that, I think talking some about his Christianity, desire to convert, etc. is warranted, probably more than it is (it's near the end of the second voyage section). I am concerned that you personally have a major axe to grind, though. Daniel Quinlan 20:44, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure what axe that would be, exactly... I just think this is an important part of Columbus' significance in the world at large - his religious import. Graft 22:44, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Erghh... so, this is opening up a whole other can of worms, but can we somehow equivocate about "discovery" a bit more, like maybe remove the passive voice and say who considers him to be the discoverer? Certainly not the native residents of these continents... I don't find it very npov. Graft 20:27, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think the "Columbus discovered America" thing is a bit of a straw man nowadays. That's not what most people say, even the most simplistic first grade lesson. They say "Columbus discovered America in 1492" and are quite clear that Native Americans were already here (and probably even mention the Vikings most times). And from his perspective and the perspective of Europe, he did. I mean, if we find out space aliens knew about DNA a million years ago, will that mean that Watson and Crick didn't discover its structure? So, I do believe it's accurate to designate him the European who discovered America. Sure, the Vikings were in North America earlier and were Europeans, but basically nobody knew about their discovery until much later. The "discovery" word ticks some people off, but the article already bends over backwards to portray him as discovering nothing. Anyway, read the definition of "discover":

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discover&r=67

Daniel Quinlan 20:44, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

Well, this point will probably fly right by you, but Wikipedia is, in a lot of ways like this, written for white Europeans/Americans. E.g., "discovered" means, "found for other Europeans", but it's written entirely as if that were the only context, which is so subtextual that it's not even mentioned. The fact that millions of people had already "discovered" the Americas and had been living there for 40,000 years goes unmentioned, because we are only interested in the European context. This is a particular casting of history which basically asserts the primacy and importance of the Europeans in history, ignores or denies the personhood of Native Americans, and is generally not neutral point of view. Graft 22:44, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

No, you don't seem to have listened to what DQ said at all. Discover means merely that one found something one didn't know of before. I can discover buried treasure, even though the person who buried it already knew it was there, and might even be alive, and might even live next door to me. No one has ever claimed that people were not living in the Americas before Columbus got there, so obviously by discover this wide meaning was intended. Look at the link DQ shows, with the example discovered a new restaurant on the west side. Does that mean the restaurant was unknown to anyone until I "discovered" it? This is not about "white European etc.", but about what the word means. -- VV 23:12, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Actually, I DID listen to DQ, you just didn't listen to me, or, as I was afraid, it flew right by you. The issue of "discovery" DOES have to do with how you're telling the story, and who it's about. In this case, we're interested in whether Columbus discovered America because of its impact on Europe. We know this because we compare other incidents to identify the seminal event - we're not interested in describing Columbus' discovery in the context of native history, and the native societies in question get sparse mention. Columbus is the beginning-point in European expansion (e.g., end of the introduction), not the end-point in several millenia of indigenous history. Graft 23:29, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

OK, I understand you. You're saying that we're looking at Columbus from the perspective of how important he was for European expansion, and that's why "discovery" seems like such a natural word. Now how would the introduction be phrased differently if it were not from that vantage point?

Others look past (or dispute) that view and recognize him for his massive impact on Western civilization.

This sentence has apparently been there a long time, but it bothers me alot. It's perfectly possible to view Columbus as one of the early leaders of a long string of genocidal conquerors and colonizers, and still "recognize him for his massive impact on Western Civilization". Indeed, I would say that people who view him that way recognize very acutely "his massive impact on Western Civilization". DanKeshet

The only reason he is famous, is that he discovered (quite by accident) a geographical region which was unknown to Europeans. While that is certainly noteworthy, I don't think it should be trumped up as somehow dwarfing what he did with his fame, fortune, and discovery -- that is, he started killing people, enslaving people, kidnapping people, raping people, and waging general genocide. How can you look past it? What is there to look past to? Essentially, I am agreeing with DanKeshet. Lirath Q. Pynnor

In all seriousness, look at this man in context. Matching him up with other Canary Island traders of his time, before his voyages, he was markedly different. They all engaged in such activities with people they regarded as inferior, and all took captives. Characterising them as slaves is not exactly correct, it was more like specimens. It is heinous, but this article is lacking when you look at it in context, and strip out the 1960s revisionism.

Calling him genocidal isn't exactly right seeing that he did not undertake a large scale action against native people from the lands he governed, they were not prepared for the onslaught of European germs and mores, and many died but not as a political aim. I think villifying a man as a symbol of others excesses is grossly unfair to Columbus as a human being. He may have done wrong, but he shouldn't be held for the crimes of his contemporaries. Dominick

excerpt of email to dominick

thanks for calling attention to the word "crimes" in your email to me. you're right that it was a poor choice of word. i've changed it and reverted the columbus page back to my other changes - which in my opinion add a lot of content, as well as clarify who the sentences refer to. now that i'm looking at it though, i do agree that it was more than a minor edit.

added content, which you welcomed in your message to me, includes for instance, the crucial primary source (the four voyages of columbus), the "black legend" material, and the crucial point that european diseases were more deadly to people being conquered and forced to labor in hard conditions with inadequate food. this is one of the main reasons that people tended to die at dachau, as well, of diseases that regular germans didn't die of.

clarification of perspective (eg. "claimed ownership ...monarchs" and "received as hero... in spain") makes the text less vague and less prone to simply accepting the assumptions of eurocentric history.

andy

email communications are not part of Wikipedia. I edited the page, where I think a NpoV balance is achived. I felt you introduced an anti-european bias, but I think some of your edits have improved the article. Lets agree to let th article lie for a awhile and see what others edit. Dominick 22:05, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

- This counter editing must stop. Please note the text: "meet the modern legal definition of genocide" There is no modern legal definition. I do not think you can call Columbus genocidal, he could not pursue such a campaign with his limited resources. You may consider the entire Spanish exploration genocidal, but even then you would consider intermarriage with native population.

Should discuss (here or elsewhere) very unusual coat of arms of Columbus. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:04, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

A comment on his ethnicity

"Although he is generally assumed to be Genoese, his actual background is clouded in mystery. Very little is really known about Columbus before the mid-1470s. It has been suggested that this might have been because he was hiding something - an event in his origin or history that he kept a secret deliberately. It has also been noted that he not only wrote flawless Castilian, but that he used the language even when writing with Italians."

He was hiding his humble origins, and didn't marry Beatriz for the same reason. Prof. Eakin of Vanderbilt University (who has a truly awe-inspiring lecture series "Conquest of the Americas" through the Teaching Company), recommended the short book The Worlds of Christopher Columbus by Phillips and Phillips. Scholarly but a fascinating look at the mariner and his times. That he was Italian on both sides of his family from way back is one of the best documented facts of his life. The rush to claim him for other countries was started in England 100 years after he died.

He spoke Castilian with a thick accent (exacerbating his "foreigner" status, and perhaps contributing to the fact that he killed more Spaniards than Indians!) and his written Castilian with Portuguese phoenetics charmed Isabela, who had Portuguese relatives. The authors think he learned to write when in Portugal - hence the nature of his grammatical mistakes in Castilian. -Lisa

He never wrote anything in italian, not even when mailing his italian friends. It is documented that he wrote in catalan and that could speak catalan, though actual documents of the voyages are lost. The existing translations of the voyages descriptions can be interpreted as literal tanslations from catalan; specifically names of animals have been literally translated into spanish but losing its meaning. Backtranslating into catalan allows to identify the refered species. All of his gramatical mistakes can be found to be correct catalan words, or are catalan idioms. The places of the new land he named were, without exception, references to catalan places he knew (like San Salvador), or have some meaning in catalan (like Veracruz). The first voyage started and ended in catalonia (otherwise existing data is inconsistent).

Explain this claim. The voyage starts from Palos which is not in Catalonia. -- Error 00:53, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 The start of the first voyage was Pals (Palos (spa) and Pals (cat) have
 the same meaning). Pals was the residence place of the Pinzón brothers. 
 Palos has not, and had not, any sea harbour. This is consistent with the
 passing through Gibraltar, while Palos is west of Gibraltar.

I didn't know these claims.

So:

This is not Pinzón's house (http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/cultura/iaph/infopha/06bimagenes/huelva/indexcentral404.html) where his descendants have been living for centuries.

Most likely they are not. A population census made at that time in Palos shows there were no "Pinzon" living there.

Yánez Pinzón and Alonso Pinzón are Catalan names.

Not claiming this. The ones who lived in Pals were portuguese and named Pinçon. They were three brothers.

Alfonso Pinzón. It is well documented that he has been to Rome. The catalan ambassador to Rome at that time was named Alfons Anes Pinçon.
Fernando Pinzón. There was a civil servant in the catalan goverment of that time named Ferran Anes Pinçon.
Vicente Yañez Pinzón. There was a Vicens Anes Pinçon, living in Pals. This is documented in a letter to the king Ferran (1479).

It is highly unlikely that there were also three (unregistered) Pinzón brothers living in another place of similar name (Palos) in another country at the same time.

From Palos de la Frontera (http://www.playasdehuelva.com/espanol/turistica/pueblos/palosdelafrontera.html)

A Pragmatic Sanction was read in Palos in May 1492 ordering the Palos-ans to give two caravelles to Columbus.
The monks from Nuestra Señora de la Rábida in Palos linked Columbus with the Pinzóns.

We know that Colón wrote to the Pinzón long before meeting them. It is not clear how Colon got to know the Pinzon. Some previous relationship probably existed. This is a better explanation than finding them "by chance".

We know that Colón was a friend of the owner of La Ràpita (near Balaguer, Catalonia).

The quay of La Fontanilla was the start point of Columbus's expedition.

-- Error 00:40, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 It is reasonable to think that Pals was also the end of the first voyage.
 Documents say that it took Colón three days to walk form "Palos" to
 Barcelona. This is a long trip from Pals (about 100 km), but impossible
 (over 1000 km) from Palos.

It seems that all those claims are collected in http://www.geocities.com/cristofor_colom/a01.html that states that the early conquest of the Americas was done by Catalans, and that in the XVI century, the documents were (imperfectly) altered.

-- Error 00:40, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Pictures exist of him holding the catalan flag (a red cross). All documents from his time refer to him as "Colom" (as in Colombia), not Colón. Colón is spanish pronunciation for Colom. Colom is a common catalan name. The contract he signed with "his king" was registered according to catalan law. He never wrote a single letter to the spanish queen, but to the catalan king or to both. The powers he later claimed were given catalan names (like "virrey"). There is even more evidence. All this together makes the catalan hypotesis a solid one.

I am a high school stundent and I am adding some information on Columbus in the article. Here is a copy of the works cited I used for my information.

Works Cited “Age of Exploration: Christopher Columbus.” The Mariners’ Museum. 2004. Newport News.17Nov. 2004 http://www.mariner.org/educationalad/ageofex/columbus.php.

Caso, Adolph. “The Known but Unknown Pilot”. Washington Times Dec. 1991, vol. 6, no. 12:394-401

Chin, Beverly, et al., eds. Glenco World Literature. New York: Glencoe McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc., 2000.

Jones, Mary E., ed. Christopher Columbus and His Legacy: Opposing Viewpoints. San Diego: Greenhaven, 1992.

Lunenfeld, Marvin. “Columbus, Christopher.” World Book Online Reference Center. 2004. World Book, Inc. 17 Nov. 2004 http://www.worldbookonline.com/wb/Article?id=ar125200.

“Medieval Sourcebook: Christopher Columbus: Extracts from Journal.” Internet Medieval Sourcebook. 1996. Halsall. 17 Nov. 2004. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columbus1.html.

It was the discovery of the other half of the world!

Columbus "discovered" the Americas for the map-making peoples of the world. Amerindians didn't go on voyages of discovery and didn't have maps of their continents. They were in the stone age and lacked the massive exchange of ideas available in the much larger Old World. They left Asia between 21,000 and 40,000 years ago according to genetic evidence. (To wit: Full blooded Amerindians, of which there are 100 million now thanks to the miracles of antibiotics and the anti-birth-control Catholic millieu, share no genetic mutations with anyone until you go back 40,000 years - eyelid-fold, tooth morphology changes, kinky hair, blue eyes, etc. They look like what all homo sapiens once did and are just as tall as northern Europeans under wholesome circumstances. The male children of Mayan refugees in Florida average 5'10". See this week's New Yorker.) -Lisa LisaHelenW@aol.com

Yes indeed. If I may, quit complaining :-). Help fix the Lisa, I welcome you to get a wiki account and start editing. Stealing from my own talk page but just a suseful: How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Naming conventions, Manual of Style. You should read our policies at some point too. Dominick 12:39, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There is one point that many people do not take into consideration. Columbus was a creature of his times, just as you and I are creatures of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. The conduct and thinking that was acceptable and commonplace then is quite likely not so today. As will today's thinking be 500 years from now. Simply put, we must not judge 15th Century man by the standards of the 21st Century. -Don B.

Grave

Some could be said about the current location of his corpse. -- Error 01:31, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Could it? I think there are no less than four places which claim to have it! - Nunh-huh 01:34, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

His language

Either he not only wrote flawless Castilian, but that he used the language even when writing with Italians. or Nor was it ever easy to read Columbus's nonnative Spanish with its Portuguese phonetics and Genoese locutions.. How was Columbus' language? Remember that until 1492 there was no published grammar of Spanish. -- Error 02:32, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What I wrote in Columbus#The language of Columbus is a summary of a chapter in Det spanska Amerika i sprakets spegel by Bertil Malmberg. I used a translation. Ik sprak nej svenska. The Menéndez Pidal article should be in La lengua de Cristóbal Colón y otros estudios sobre el siglo XVI. Madrid, 1947.

Recent edits have highlighted the length of the first section. I don't mind long intros, but perhaps some of what is said there should be trimmed away. The opening paragraphs should explain who he was, why he was important, and any effect on modern society in some way (controversy, legacy). So some of what is said there about Muslim traders and the background to Columbus's voyages should be cut out or condensed, right? Brutannica 02:31, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Graft, that just about did it. Brutannica 05:13, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Columbus" meaning

The surname doesn't mean "colonist". Colón is similar to colono, but columbus, colombo, colom, colombe mean only "male pigeon". -- Error 01:44, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

China theory

I removed a couple of things from the intro. First, we don't need to refute the flat earth thing in the intro, since the intro doesn't even introduce it. And the issue is treaded with much greater detail in the body of the article. Second, the China theory is so out there it has no place in this article. By all means, have a separate article on it. It doesn't bear on this one. Slrubenstein

>Vikings=go >Irishmen=go >Basque sailors=go >China=no go --->That doesn't make much sense.

Maybe we should set an official limit (say, 3, 4 if we count the Vikings) on the number of questionable pre-Columbian exploration theories brought up in this article. So we could bring up the Irish, the Basque, and the Chinese, and then agree to save everything else for an article on questionable pre-Columbian expeditions. (By the way, if we do do that, then I'm not necessarily suggesting we use those three -- I thought the Phoenician and Malian theories were better supported?) Brutannica 20:14, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Mention of all but the Vikings can be deleted, as far as I'm concerned. Note that one previous version of the article claimed that the 6th century Irish missionary visits were probable. That is hogwash, according to almost everybody besides the followers of Barry Fell.CSTAR 21:16, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, I think we need a second (or third) opinion, and although I agree "possible" is a better word than "probable," I don't think it would hurt to include them, if just in one sentence, like "Evidence also exists for other, less well-documented expeditions to the Americas, such as by the [people], [people], and [people] --- see [separate article]." (And maybe "(but most scholars dispute this)" or something.) Brutannica 21:26, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It's OK by me to mention them, provided it is stated clearly (as is the case currently) that the existence of the previous vists is very much a minority view, and with references to the sources of these views. Actually I wasn't able to pin down a source for the Portuguese Cod fisheries...The Irish Missionary business is pretty easy to source (and by now broadly debunked). CSTAR 21:36, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

But which theories should we cite? Besides the Vikings, there is evidence (in some form or another) for Indonesian, Japanese, Chinese, Phoenician, Celtic, Irish, Malian, Portuguese, Basque, and English expeditions. I personally suggest Phoenician, Malian, and some East Asian (China/Japan/Indonesia). Brutannica 04:03, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I say, let Vikings, maybe mention the presumed pre-discoverer whose knowledge would be transferred to Columbus and include a link to Ancient visitors of the Americas. This article is centered on Columbus. -- Error 00:40, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Whose is "the presumed pre-discoverer whose knowledge would be transferred to Columbus?" And why include a link to a non-existent article? Brutannica 03:03, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ancient visitors to the Americas. Grrr. There is some theory about some mariner who had arrived years earlier and whose knowledge would have reached Columbus somehow giving him some proof for his fabulous claims.

[2] (http://www.escolar.com/article-php-sid=43.html) Debido a que se topara tierra tan rápido (tanto en este viaje como en los tres posteriores), se ha pensado que existiera un predescubridor que le hiciera saber a colón la existencia de esa ruta hay quienes piensan que este predescubridor sería un personaje originario de las costas de Huelva y llamado Alonso Sánchez.

-- Error 01:15, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Genora

While proofreading the article I found this confusing sentence: "Menéndez Pidal guesses that, in Genora learnt from some traveller notions of Portugalized Spanish and used in his deals a sort of commercial Latin (latín ginobisco for Spaniards). " I almost corrected Genora to Genoa and straightened out the rest of the sentence, but then I read that Pidal believed Columbus was from Catalonia. So I left the sentence alone, unable to figure out what was intended. Genora is a drug or a name, not a place I could find. Art LaPella 15:53, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)

Er, I meant Genoa. -- Error 00:40, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

WikiAwards

Just to state that this article is part of the paralel goal of the WikiAward for Greatest Sea Explorer of the period of the discoveries.

If you do not know what are the WikiAwards just find out here.
If you already knew register as participant and choose a category to vote. This Award is part of the History category.

Have fun, see the results, watch Wikipedia grow...--Gameiro Pais 05:44, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is this a joke? Rick K 06:20, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)

Madeira question

"Felipa's father had partaken in the conquest of the Madeira Islands and owned one of them" i changed "conquest" to "discovery" since this could look like Madeira was conquered.. (or it wasnt meant this way?) also, did Felipa´s father really own one of the islands? there are just two... i assume it would be porto santo? ---Cyprus2k1 16:13, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Madeiras probably were conquered - check the Wikipedia article to be sure. By the way, why all the links? Most of them are red. Brutannica 04:22, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There was nobody living there, so they weren´t "conquered" in any sense of "invasion".. - --Cyprus2k1 04:47, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ah. Well then, I guess they were "settled" instead. Brutannica 03:30, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Las Casas

Bartolome de Las Casas was a friend of Columbus. So he didn't blame him for the atrocities committed against Native Americans. Just check A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies. --Mixcoatl 12:07, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Spices

Hey Mr. 4 numbers, can we get some reference for these spice stories? Gadykozma 01:48, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This spice section is a good idea, but also a little suspicious. Much of it is contradictory -- I didn't quite know what to make of the part about people saying Columbus had failed, then saying he escaped ridicule. Also, I think contemporary perceptions of Columbus should be incorporated into the main article and not in the section on spices. In fact, the whole spice section ought to be moved further up. Brutannica 19:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The section I think should go completely. As far as I can see, the only information it adds is which spices Columbus discovered (the aji information is really interesting — is Columbus really responsible for the pepper confusion?), which should probably be merged into the end of the "First Voyage" section. Definitely it does not belong in the "perceptions" section.

However, we also have a problem of verifiability: the guy who originally posted did not come up with any proof of that, and because Columbus is such a hot topic, he might have invented it. As you noticed yourself, it sounds fishy. How can we verify the entries from Columbus log and the other stuff? Gadykozma 20:32, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OK, I added the aji quote at the end of the "First Voyage" section, and deleted all the rest. The Columbus - The First Spice Seeker page contained practically literally this paragraph over again so I redirected it and removed the "merge from" tag. BTW: my experience is that newbies that post the same text twice that's usually a sign for copyright violation. Anyone has turner's book at hand to check? Gadykozma 14:02, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

where did he die?

"Informationless Rant"

Don't know if this clears things up, but the passage pointed out the arrogance of Columbus in "claiming land" that was already populated and governed and then establishing himself and the Spaniards as rulers in the Caribbean. What gave him that right? Maybe it's not fair to single Colombo out from all the various other European land claimants in history, but I thought it gave an interesting perspective to the "Columbus as villain" argument.

By the way, the "Columbus as hero" section could use expansion. Brutannica 05:34, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

see Terra nullius, "a Latin expression meaning "empty land" or "no man's land". The term refers to a 17th century legal fiction that permitted European colonial powers to assume control of land that was unclaimed (at least by each other)." Peter Ellis 17:45, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Kukul Khan"?

"He'd heard the word "Kulkukan" (Feathered Serpent), and rejoiced that the land of "Kublai Khan" or the "Great Khan" was nigh." I never heard of that before, does someone has evidence Columbus heard the name Kukulcan? (Apart from that, the name is misspelled it's Kukulcan, not Kulkukan. --Mixcoatl 14:51, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Vikings

Where is it aknowledged that the scandinavians going to america was vikings? Is the term viking used in any document describing those travels, or is it a personal opinion that they should be called vikings? Dan Koehl 12:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Still thought he was in Asia?

On May 20, 1506, Columbus died in Spain, fairly wealthy due to the gold his men had accumulated in Hispaniola. He was still convinced that his discoveries were along the East Coast of Asia

It was my understanding that this was a myth, and any belief that Columbus had that he was in Asia died when he visited the mouth of the Orinoco river, and realized that he was dealing with a bonafide continent. Or did he think that this was another part of Asia? --Bletch 18:37, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, Asia is a continent. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:53, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

look up the word vinland and you might find some evidance

gabriel simon

External links

Possible new lead in Columbus bones riddle (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4184201.stm)

rape and stuff

What is meant by "european historical account?" How many are there (the recent edit says "all")? Is this a synthetic claim, which would violate the no original research rule? I am tempted to revert it but would like to know what others think. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:04, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Greek?

Is Wikipedia going to back the Greek origin theory as much as to have it that up front in the article? I know that in NPOV the popular POV isn't the only one stated, but I think that it should be the one we say first. Now, mind, I'm not saying that he couldn't have been Greek. I'm just saying that we should say he was Genoese first.

Lee S. Svoboda 22:28, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Who was the portuguese that tried to capture Columbus?

I can't remember who was the portuguese almost caught Columbus at Azores on his way back to Spain after his discover of America. Las Casas reported this affair in his "Log of Christopher Columbus". --Ypacaraí 02:43, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)

Genetics Reference

Does anyone know of a reference concerning the results of the gentic studies concerning Christopher Columbus? - Xpo FERENS

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