Talk:Christian cross

Contents

1 Non-Christian crosses

2 Saint Paul

3 Iron Crown

8 Reference to Constantine

9 Gallery

10 NPOV on Illustration

11 Cross in terms of liturgical use

12 Occitan cross?

Non-Christian crosses

Wesley, do you think we need separate articles for crucifix and Christian cross? (I support your decision in advance :-) --Ed Poor

I don't think the Iron Cross is a Christian Symbol, any more than the Victoria Cross. DJ Clayworth 17:15, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Just a little note: it should be noted that in heraldry, a few crosses are not Christian in origin, such as the "cross moline". --Daniel C. Boyer 19:28, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the Iron Cross and Victoria Cross are not used as Christian symbols. As far as whether to merge the articles... *shrug*. To be honest, we probably don't need separate articles for crucifix and Christian cross, but I wouldn't want to merge them unless there was also a picture or photo of a plain non-crucifix cross, just to be visually NPOV. It's not that big an issue to me personally since I'm fine with either form, but obviously some people feel stronger. Since "crucifix" is a subset or type of Christian cross, I would think it would be incorporated into the cross article, rather than vice versa. Wesley 17:28, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Though I'm a secular rationalist myself, I know there are strong divisions of feeling about crosses vs. crucifixes: they do need to be kept separate. As for the other issue, it is quite certain that not all crosses are Christian. Do we have Cross (symbol) then? User:Wetman

The Christian cross is NOT a familiar religious symbol of ALL Christianity. Jehovah's Witnesses are of Christianity, but they do NOT use the Christian cross. Thank you. ja:利用者:K.M.

I think that for some Christians Jehovah's Witnesses are not really Christian? -- Error 02:31, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't know any denomination which seems Jehova's Witnesses as Christian. Some Religiologists consider them as a very extraordinary but a Christian denomination. For NPOV we can add a phrase "there is some who claim they are Christian, but the Cross has been not a part of true Christian faith." or so. KIZU 06:55, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Saint Paul

Some one says it was referred to constantly in early Christian writings, especially the epistles of Saint Paul. What sentences support your idea? Please explain here.ja:利用者:K.M.

With pleasure. Here (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?search=cross+crucified+crucifixion&x=18&y=14&SearchType=OR&version=KJV&restrict=Pauline_Epistles&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0) are all the references in Paul's epistles; here (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103224.htm) is Irenaeus (2nd century); here (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm)'s Justin Martyr (ditto); here (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0306a.htm)'s Tertullian (late 2nd - early 3rd century) and that should be enough for now. The Catholic Encyclopedia article (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm) from which I pinched the above has many, many more, although its archaeology is a bit dated. For some more modern evidence, this page (http://www.machynlleth.freeserve.co.uk/cross.htm) contains references to recent archaelogical writings on the matter. (If you're looking at this from a Jehovah's Witness perspective, as I surmise, you might want to expand on their beliefs; I'm not sure that I got that section right.) --67.71.79.45 02:46, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think that KJV is wrong. My Bible uses stake instead of cross. And I think your suggested site quote from Catholic Dictionary, and it's not a true theory.ja:利用者:K.M.

That's fine, the Greek stauros can be translated as either "stake" or "cross", so your Bible isn't technically inaccurate; however, the other references I quoted are unambiguous on the matter, and the Catholic Encyclopedia is very well-referenced, so checking its assertions is a simple matter. I've expanded the section on Jehovah's Witnesses a bit; is that part accurate now? --67.71.79.45 03:52, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't think my Bible isn't inaccurate, but thank you for your writing.K.M.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that they do not believe, that Jesus was the Christ, as well the Son of God. How does that make them a sect of Christianity ?

Iron Crown

I thought that the Iron Crown was that of Hungary. -- Error 02:31, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It belonged to the Lombards; see for example [1] (http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/L/Lombards.asp). --67.71.79.45 03:52, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The crown of the Kingdom of Hungary is Crown of St. Stephen. Wetman 10:11, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Citations please?

I would suggest that the editor of the new section provide some citations for the material there. Hopefully he will notice this comment and oblige readers. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 16:23, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Stamped on many coins Constantine subsequently had minted are X-shaped crosses with a "P" superimposed. This style of cross is nearly identical to the pagan symbol for the sun." This naive editor is unaware of the chi-rho symbol. His connection with supposed solar symbols is sheer invention. I haven't removed this statement because I detect fanaticism that I don't want to get involved with. Wetman 17:23, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I removed the addition, which I think was bizarre enough to require extensive citation so encyclopedia users will know what propaganda they are getting. Citations are extremely useful in any case, and I wish more people would provide sources for their work... Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 06:25, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Please read Futher Reading. Rantaro 07:12, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It may be correct, or may be incorrect, to assert that the chi-rho was used by worshippers of Mithras (and/or Sol Invictus) rather than used exclusively by Christians, but it's neither an unusual nor an infrequent assertion. - Nunh-huh 06:34, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"This article is POV." This article is not biased. People of diverse religious persuasions have edited it. The reason why your edit is not permitted is because you are unable to differentiate between wild opinion and factual presentation. I believe that you know perfectly well that you are trying to propagandize, and it won't wash. It is also likely that you know rather little about the subject, because you labeled a whole section "Catholic" that is not Catholic, that is fed by a wide range of opinions. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 09:24, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sorry,I don't think this is not biased. This article is bias to Catholic doctrine. If you are not permitted, I'll revert. (I don't think we need your permission)Rantaro 14:50, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Incidentally, are you plagiarizing any of the material you are posting to the Wikipedia? I ask because your English is troubled, yet some of your sentences are florid — without attribution. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 09:40, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Rantaro's edits

Of course I am not opposed in theory (nor in practice, done correctly) to a section of this article containing the Jehovah's Witness' view of the cross. There are several key problems with the text Rantaro is trying to add.

The first part appears to contain facts which are not necessarily opposed to anything. Indeed the archealogy of the cross shows a great many uses of the cross over peoples and time. It is hopeless to state as "opposed" anything that is in fact factual.
These facts are coming from him and would require a great deal of vetting.
He cannot really arrange any factual content more reasonably because ...
Rantaro evidently does not speak English, which further strongly implies that he is posting some material wholesale; with or without attribution this is not the way it is done.
Rantaro knows perfectly well that he is stating some opinions as if they were facts, and can be required to learn to avoid that by properly scoping his views. For example, "Spinach is unhealthy" would not be appropriate content for spinach, but at the very least "Rantaro believes that spinach is unhealthy" is factual. Then all that is left is to ascertain whether Rantaro's belief is of interest; I think we can say that the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses are worth cataloguing. No problem there.

Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 16:43, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi

I disputed the page for you, since from what I saw both Trc and Rantaro seem to be disputing additions made by the other. I consider myself an impartial, relitively ignorant observer. If anyone would like to explain to me whats wrong w the current article, or what needs fixed/removed/added I'm all ears. I'd like to see us reach concensus and remove the dispute header ASAP, BTW. Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 06:21, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Wow! I gave a chuckle when I saw what happened (in my watchlist I only saw Sam Spade and was surprised, but then sure enough, there was Rantaro in the history). I've already spoken my piece. The problems should be pretty clear. I do embrace a section detailing JW views of the cross; facts are always good. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 06:28, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I should clarify that I made no addition other than the notice at the top... at least not that I recall. I was only concerned about Rantaro's addition. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 07:06, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Moved from article

Opposed View

Christian Cross was used by both Hindus and Buddhists in India and China, and by the Persians, Assyrians, and Babylonians from the ancient time. It was the pagan Romans who used the cross in the 1st Century. The Roman nature-god Bacchus was at times represented with a headband containing a number of crosses.

In 312 A.D., Constantine I, ruling the area now known as France and Britain, headed out to war against his brother-in-law, Maxentius, of Italy. En route he reportedly saw a vision ― a cross on which were the words "Hocvince," meaning, "By this conquer." After his victory, he made the cross the standard of his armies. When Christianity later became the state religion of the Roman Empire, the cross became the symbol of the church.

At the time of this supposed event, he was an avid sun-god worshiper. His conduct after his so-called conversion also gave little evidence of real dedication to right principles. Christianity was little more than a political device to unite a fragmented empire for him.

There is also little evidence that the type of cross Constantine saw really represented the instrument used to put Christ to death. Stamped on many coins Constantine subsequently had minted are X-shaped crosses with a "P" superimposed. This style of cross is nearly identical to the pagan symbol for the sun. -- An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine

By the middle of the 3rd century, Catholic church had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.

I find this portion very dubious, and would likely require a very different wording (including counterclaims) even if there are sound references. citations and verifiability please?Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 06:54, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sure. An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, says: "(Greek) Stauros . . . denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun [stau?ros?] and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross. The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt."

Vine goes on to say:"As for the Chi, or X, which Constantine declared he had seen in a vision leading him to champion the Christian faith, that letter was the initial of the word 'Christ' [in the Greek language] and had nothing to do with 'the Cross,'"

This also says: "By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ."

The Companion Bible, under the heading "The Cross and Crucifixion," notes: "Our English word 'cross' is the translation of the Latin crux; but the Greek stauros no more means a crux than the word 'stick' means a 'crutch.' Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a single piece of timber. And this is the meaning and usage of the word throughout the Greek classics. It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another. . . . There is nothing in the Greek of the N[ew] T[estament] even to imply two pieces of timber."

This also says: "These crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god . . . and are first seen on a coin of Julius Caesar, 100-44 B.C., and then on a coin struck by Caesar's heir (Augustus), 20 B.C."

Chambers's Encyclopaedia (1969 edition) says that the cross "was an emblem to which religious and mystical meanings were attached long before the Christian era."

The Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics says: "With the 4th cent[ury] magical belief began to take a firmer hold within the Church."

The Non-Christian Cross says: "There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros [pole or stake]; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross." Rantaro 06:51, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship."-Encyclopaedia Britannica (1946), Vol. 6, p. 753.

"It is strange, yet unquestionably a fact, that in ages long before the birth of Christ, and since then in lands untouched by the teaching of the Church, the Cross has been used as a sacred symbol. . . . The Greek Bacchus, the Tyrian Tammuz, the Chaldean Bel, and the Norse Odin, were all symbolised to their votaries by a cruciform device."- The Cross in Ritual, Architecture, and Art (London, 1900), G. S. Tyack, p. 1

"The cross in the form of the 'Crux Ansata' . . . was carried in the hands of the Egyptian priests and Pontiff kings as the symbol of their authority as priests of the Sun god and was called 'the Sign of Life.'" - The Worship of the Dead (London, 1904), Colonel J. Garnier, p. 226.

"Various figures of crosses are found everywhere on Egyptian monuments and tombs, and are considered by many authorities as symbolical either of the phallus [a representation of the male sex organ] or of coition. . . . In Egyptian tombs the crux ansata [cross with a circle or handle on top] is found side by side with the phallus.- A Short History of Sex-Worship (London, 1940)", H. Cutner, pp. 16, 17. Rantaro 07:20, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Here is a source from where he is drawing this material (or an equivalent source): [2] () (http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines.pl?all=1) Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 07:51, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC) Something else of interest: http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/cross.htm. That's a set of blurbs or articles culled from different sources; the last one should be familiar. Some of the material being discussed is not in question: the cross ante-dates Christianity, and symbolism did evolve. One interesting point made in the mb-soft collection is that under early oppression the cross was disguised and couldn't be depicted openly. Another is OT use of a cross symbol. The Cath.Ency. article [3] (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm) indicates that signing oneself with the cross was a very early tradition.

I think Catholic Encyclopedia is based on Catholic faith, not on historical fact.Rantaro 09:28, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It is puzzling that Rantaro appears obstinately indifferent to the problem of stating an opinion vs. stating the fact that an opinion exists. I realize that there are a number of sources that argue that the Catholic faith diverged from the original Christian faith, but to simply assert that is unacceptable. It would be like me trying to make an article assert that Jesus is God: I say He is God, but in a general encyclopedia we must state that it is Christian dogma that Jesus is God.

"By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ."

If one studies the faith of the earliest Church Fathers one finds a profound consistency in faith and practice across the centuries. I suspect that the material re church receiving pagans without true conversion is fantasy, brought on by the author's [Vine?] desire to reject the symbolism that evolved within the Catholic faith, because that symbolism is attached to faith principles that he wanted to abandon. In other words, there are multiple layers of assertions here that seem irreconciliable with the use attempted. It is also largely plagiarized (used wholesale without attribution) although is it all Vine? That may be public domain, although I think Thomas-Nelson wants it, and has bought rights to at least some of Vine. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 08:36, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This article is NOT based on YOUR faith. Don't revert by your faith. Rantaro 09:28, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

+++ I don't believe it is reasonable to say that I must not revert based on my faith, as I have not done so. I have been concerned for the facticity of your contributions, the neutrality of their expression, and the possibility that the source is not correctly attributed and possibly (apparently) used wholesale from what may not be a private source ([4] (http://www.leaderu.com/menus/vines.html)). The Catholic Encyclopedia is packed with relevant facts, and I have acknowledged that the one you are trying to use wholesale also contains information that may well be factual (I am not up on my cross archeology).

It is true that the cross, as a symbol, ante-dates Christianity. This section may well be okay, although it is stated in an argumentative fashion: "It was" is intended to stress difference in POV, rather than simply to report facts. It is believed that the early followers of Christ gave a special meaning to the cross, as their leader died upon a cross, a commonly-used device.

In 312 A.D., Constantine I, ruling the area now known as France and Britain, headed out to war against his brother-in-law, Maxentius, of Italy. En route he reportedly saw a vision -- a cross on which were the words "Hocvince," meaning, "By this conquer." After his victory, he made the cross the standard of his armies. When Christianity later became the state religion of the Roman Empire, the cross became the symbol of the church.

This is a mixture of possible fact and likely fantasy: yes, this vision may be reported, but, this paragraph is intended to insinuate that the cross only comes from this, and it plainly ante-dates this within Christianity.

There is some truth to this, but it is irrelevant. Nothing here appears to relate to the development of the cross as iconography within Christianity.

This is still about his vision, which is small potatoes in the exposition of the source and use of the cross within Christianity. It also almost surely gives very short shrift to many aspects of symbological development.

By the middle of the 3rd century, the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.

This sounds more like the belief of a specific sect, and again assumes that the cross was not important to early Christians.

There is already a paragraph in this article addressing the views of Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you User:K.M., by the way? Your first edit was to that user's talk page ([5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk%3AK.M.&diff=3590456&oldid=3590229)). I think you were discussing this matter above, in March.

I am not sure that you have the, perhaps one might say, research or intellectual maturity or neutrality to handle the subject matter. Ideas deserve a space to be clearly expounded, but facts matter and should be handled with care. There is no sense in which I am eager to suppress the Jehovah's Witness view of the cross. I just don't think your contribution is helping that project. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 05:47, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm not User:K.M., but he is my friend and my (religious) brother. K.M. and I are very angry about these comments. We think this is a provocation for Jehovah's Witnesses. Rantaro 03:01, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There is, in principle, nothing amiss in having a sockpuppet; and indeed, when a user has run into trouble and made mistakes, it is not unwelcome to see such a person turn over a new leaf. I just thought the behavioral profile was comparable so I wondered. In any event, I don't think you have reasonably answered the points raised. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 05:41, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

So, what's the plan? Any more thoughts? Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit&section=new)] 06:26, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Reference to Constantine

The sentence "At the time of this supposed event, he was an avid sun-god worshiper. His conduct after his so-called conversion also gave little evidence of real dedication to right principles. Christianity was little more than a political device to unite a fragmented empire for him." should really be in the Constantine I article. It is not directly related to the cross. I'd suggest taking it out - there is already a link to Constantine.

Also, the sentences "By the middle of the 3rd century, the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols." seems a bit biased, and actually it isn't directly relevant to the discussion about the Christian cross. This should also be taken out, mainly because it's unnecessary commentary. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:08, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Gallery

We have 12 pictures representing 3 types of crosses (Latin, Celtic, Double). Would anyone object to having one representative picture for each type of cross? Assuming they can be found. Stbalbach 06:23, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds a good idea. It might be also nice to aim at keeping a historical spread from ancient to modern to provide some historical depth. Man vyi 06:46, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

NPOV on Illustration

To call the Latin cross "the traditional" form of the cross is not NPOV, IMHO. Many Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox would disagree. It would, perhaps, be more appropriate for the caption to read "a traditional, especially in the West," or something to that effect. --Mm35173 20:40, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cross in terms of liturgical use

I think it would be appropriate to add to this article a snippet or two about how the cross has come to be venerated and used in Christian liturgy and prayer.

For example, exposition on the traditional placement of crucifixes in both Eastern and Western-style sanctuarys, the inclusion of the crucifix in the rosary, the Feast of the Veneration of the Cross (September 14, common to both East and West, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran and Anglican), the sign of the cross and blessing, mention of the inscription on the cross as definied by both the Johanine and Synoptic texts, etc. --Mm35173 20:49, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Occitan cross?

Is that a heraldry cross? Stbalbach 02:03, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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