Talk:Camps in Poland during World War II
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Talk:Camps in Poland during World War II/Archive 1
I have written a new article so all this old talk can be archived. Adam 09:42, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Good page, balanced and objective. So here you have some support from a somebody with Polish roots! Pkmink 09:57, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, I appreciate that. Perhaps you can try to persuade the other Polish Wikipedians of this. Adam 10:00, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
No, I won't do that..too much fuss..waste of time if they happen to be the extreme-right version of nationalist. Pkmink 10:06, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The name of this article would seem to encompass POW camps as well, so they ought to be included as an additional category. --Zero 12:04, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I don't believe the Germans would have fed and housed 400,000 Polish POWs for five years while enslaving the rest of the country. From what I have seen so far, after 1941 they stopped treating Poles as POWs, except possibly officers, and packed them off to labour camps. They stopped giving lists of Polish POWs to the ICRC in 1940. I don't think there were distinctly POW camps after 1941. Adam 12:21, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The title is "Camps in Poland" not "Camps for Poles", so it includes camps used for Russian POWs and others. Strictly speaking, the title also includes Russian camps used to keep Germans and Poles as well, so long as they were in Poland at some stage of WW2. --Zero 13:31, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'm not aware that there were POW camps for anyone in Poland, although I suppose some of the camps for Allied POWs may have been in areas which the Germans annexed in 1939. There were presumably temporary Soviet camps for German POWs in Poland in 1944-45, but they shipped them off to Siberia fairly quickly. If you have info on these topics feel free to add it - but not just lists of Polish placenamed please. Adam 13:49, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Later: OK, there was a major POW camp (for western Allies POWs) at Thorn (Torun) and another at Lodz, plus a couple of smaller ones at Wolstein north of Lodz and at Schilberg west of Bydgoszcz. I will add some text to that effect. Adam 14:00, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Very large numbers of Russian POWs were held by the Germans in Polish territory and many died there. Maybe they were the largest group except Jews so they deserve a mention. However I don't have names and numbers at my fingertips and don't have time for the research at the moment. --Zero 15:04, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Congrats Adam, you've made a very good encyclopedia entry! That was the whole point of my reversals: one is not supposed to delete information without giving something in exchange. And it was my only POV in this respect, since I am not an expert in the topic, nether of Poland nor of camps. Mikkalai 18:37, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Poles (defined both as citizens of Poland regardless nationality and Polish nationals of other citizenship)"
What does this mean? How can one be a Polish national of other citizenship? In English a "Polish national" is the same thing as a "Polish citizen." Does "Polish national" in this sentence mean "a person of Polish race / ethnicity / language"? or what? Adam 08:04, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- You are right. I am confusing these terms even in my native language. Mikkalai 16:55, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Adam, nice work. Once comment though: Auschwitz certainly, and to a lesser degree Majdanek and Treblinka, were also concentration camps, as we well as extermination camps, whereas Chelmno, Belzec, and Sobibor existed solely for the purposes of extermination. Danny 21:57, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks Danny. I think I said something to that effect re Auschwitz. I will add something about the other two. Adam 22:02, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Proposed title change
Current title "Camps in Poland during World War II" is historically incorrect and too ambiguous. Poland, as a country, didn't exist during the WWII - it was: conquered, partitioned, and occupied by Nazi German and Soviet Union. Northern, Western, and South Western pre-WWII territories were incorporated into the Reich, the central part was turned into German-run slave state called General Government, while Eastern parts were, until June 1941, occupied by Soviet Union. Extermination camps: Auschwitz, Chelmno, and Stutthof, etc., were located in territories incorporated into the Reich. Most of the remaining listed camps were located in General Government. Article's title ought to reflect its content and, similarly to List of German WWII POW camps, should be renamed as: "Nazi Camps in Occupied Poland during WWII", or, "Nazi Camps in German-Occupied WWII Poland". --Ttyre 20:21, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree, the title should be changed. Also it links from the “List of Camps for Poles” in that case also camps not situated in Poland should be added as e.g. Ravensbruck. Therefore the title should specify better, what the article refers to. (Good article BTW) --SylwiaS 16:55, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with the title change. However, saying that Poland didn't exist is incorrect: unlike legitimate government of France, for example, Polish government never surrendered and Polish government in exile commanded hunderds of thousands of soldiers. And in the very occupied Poland itself there was a Polish Secret State. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:08, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There are many individuals and institutions — some of them Polish — that, from ignorance, malice or opportunism, are happy to blacken Poland's reputation. One of the biggest problems is with part of the world press persisting in referring to World War II "Polish death camps." The shortest, clearest, most informative expression should be found to disambiguate this topic once and for all. logologist 14:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think the best title is [[Nazi Camps in Occupied Poland during WWII]] and it should be acceptable. Vuvar1 14:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- IMO the word "Nazi" makes the word "occupied" and/or "during WWII" unnecessary, so I'm for a shorter title: Nazi camps in Poland (or Nazi camps in occupied Poland, if someone is afraid that someone else may conclude that there were Polish Nazis). mikka (t) 22:35, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I gave the article this name in an attempt to create a politically neutral title. We should not recognise the Nazi-Soviet dismemberment of Poland. The title should be read as referring to "camps within the pre-1939 boundaries of Poland." This would include Auschwitz etc but exclude Ravensbruck, which was in pre-1939 Germany and was not a "camp for Poles," even if Poles were sent there. There was in any case no such thing as a camp exclusively for Poles. I think the name should stay. Adam 23:30, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I know very well that there were no camps exclusively for Poles. That’s why I clicked the link to the List of Concentration Camps for Poles with great interest and then I found this article. I understand that you wanted to create an article for geographical clarification, but still I wouldn’t consider the title politically neutral. While I’d prefer not to recognize the Nazi-Soviet dismemberment of Poland, I can hardly forget it and these camps are one of best memory refreshments. I know that you may think us oversensitive about this, but even Polish government officially asked not to use descriptions like that. Not everyone is an excellent historian and there is more and more people, who don’t read articles carefully and with situations like that one in the USA, where on every three mentions of camps in media one says the camps were in Poland or even Polish, some people start thinking that Nazis were of Polish origin. I know that you don’t think so, but please, consider the title change. --SylwiaS 02:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have never heard any suggestion of anyone thinking that the camps were run by Poles. But if you think this is an issue I suppose it could be Camps in Occupied Poland during World War II. Adam 02:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for understanding. Unfortunately it is an issue. Please, read this (an example of a request for correctness) http://www.jewishmuseum.org.pl/index.php?page=1011000001 --SylwiaS 03:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) Sorry, it doesn’t link to the exact place. Please, click “news” and then “The American Jewish Committee appeals for the historical truth.” --SylwiaS 03:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- IMHO this article is not needed at all. IMO it should simply be merged with German concentration camps and concentration camp or some other article. Halibutt 11:48, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
The article was felt necessary to counter the mass of false and grossly POV material it replaced at various Polish-martyrdom articles such List of Concentration Camps for Poles. I think it contains useful information, such as the important distinction between extermination camps, concentration camps, labour camps and POW camps, which your titles ignore. Adam 12:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with Halibutt to eventually incorporate it into existing other articles. But for now renaming would be the easiest and fastest way to deal with this article. How about "Nazi Camps in Occupied Poland"? --Ttyre 22:09, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)