Talk:Bolshevik

Although the word "cult" does actually have a neutral meaning, I think its meaning is somewhat weighted in todays usage. For the purpose of objectivity i think that this line " . . and in addition the cult of Lenin as a heroic leader." should be made to have a less slanted, how do you say, flavor. perhapse " .. .and in addition the adoption of Lenin as great leader."

I think the intention of the original writer was to allude to the cult of personality phenomenon. I don't know whether this truthfully applies to the Bolshevik era that is the subject of the article, though. Hephaestos 19:16 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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Anti-semitic vandalism

Moved following to talk Cautious 12:07, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC) SO I SEE YOU ALLOW NO EDITS TO YOUR "FREE" ENCYCLOPEDIA WHICH IMPUGNS THE "GLORIOUS HISTORY" OF THE GODDAM BOLSHEVIKS WHO MURDERED OVER FIFTY MILLION PEOPLE?!

Cautious, please be aware that 66.124.101.229 (contributions) is systematically going through Communist and Bolshevik-related pages adding anti-semitic rants about the supposed "Jewish-Communist World Empire". It's already listed on the Vandalism in progress page. -- ChrisO 12:22, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I hope that you don't find communism and Jews sunject as taboo. Simply let'S make it NPOV Cautious 13:26, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

No, but I do find incoherent, badly spelled and anti-semitic additions objectionable. Leaving aside the politics, it's very badly written and doesn't conform with the Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. I've copied it below so that anyone who really feels like bothering can work out a better form of words. -- ChrisO 15:08, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

From 66.124.101.229:

Since the Jews in Russia were discriminated, many of them were atracted by the non-nationalist vision of Russia after socialist revolution. Both fractions of the party had big shared of Jewish memebers. This lead to oficially anti-Semitism as the way of fight of Tsars police Okhrana against those underground organisations.

This led to the characterization of the Communist Revolution as a vengeful Jewish conquest of Russia in view of the murder of the royal family and the annihilation of tens of millions of ethnic Russians and Ukranians in the 1920's and 1930's.

The view of the communism as the Communist-Jewish ambitions were also popular in other countries especially after the communist revolution, as achieved in Hungary, under the Jew Bela Kuhn.

This dualistic view ( fashism or communism ) contributed to the rise of National Socialists (Nazis) in Germany, and lead to defeat European democracy.

Can anyone suggest a NPOV version of the above? -- ChrisO 14:53, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the above could have NPOV version at all :-). I don't think it's worth mentioning here, because it was on little significance for the October Revolution. Drbug 15:12, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

What is POV here? OK, I will try. Pro 16:20, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Let's resume things that are worth adding to main article:

1. When Bolsheviks became Communist party (1936)
2. Why extreme ideas were attractive to minorities, particulary to Jews?
3. National composition of avarage members of Bolshevik fraction (over time)
4. National composition of the prominent members of Bolshevik fraction (over time)
5. In what way anti-Semitism was used by enemies of Bolsheviks: Okhrana, Nazis
6. The historical process, that led to devils alternative of 1930-ties: communism or Nazism.

Anybody oppose? Cautious 16:38, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

What's the point of asking if anyone's opposed if you're just going to revert without any discussion (within 15 minutes of you posting this)? Pro has already said s/he will try to come up with another version and I'll see what I can do as well. I suggest that we work here on a new version that we can all agree with. In the meantime, please don't try to revert the article again. The page will end up being locked if this continues. -- ChrisO 17:12, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

OK, looks like Pro and I have been able to come up with an alternative. See what you think... -- ChrisO 18:27, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It's a bit incorrect way to put material into the article. Sorry, but your position is biased. The level of antisemitism in Tsarist Russia is exaggerated. It was not major problem and it was not pumping the revolution. Despite your points are possible correct, and it might be a good theory for the in-depth analysis, they are not of that significance. Maybe they could belong to the "Antisemitism Influence Theory" section, but not to the main body of the article. It's just a theory, nothing more. Drbug 19:40, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I have to agree. I think it would be better placed in the article on History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union, which already has a section about the Bolshevik Revolution that alludes to Jewish participation. -- ChrisO 21:08, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the Jewish-Communist link, I've noted that the Soviet government itself tacitly or explicitly participated in a number of pogroms over the years; not exactly something they would do if they were controlled by Zionists. Also, there was the Jewish Autonomous Republic, billed as a homeland for Jews within the Soviet framework.

In a larger sense, I think that the scope of this article is in danger of spiralling out of control. It's supposed to be about the Bolshevik faction of the RSDLP, not about the History of the Soviet Union or the History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union. Kwertii 09:24, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

• In the agreement with the previous remark (but without even seeing it:-), the piece below was cut out of the article as irrelevant to the topic and more than adequately replaced by the link to History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union.

<-- and the Soviet Union adopted policies of assimilation, Russification and (by the 1950s) anti-Zionism, often colored by traditional Russian anti-Semitism (most visibly during the last years of Stalin's rule). Indeed, the Soviet government participated in a number of pogroms over the years, where police and troops either tacitly allowed or actively participated in the destruction of Jewish communities. -->

Mikkalai 18:52, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

• ...not to say that the last sentense is a total bullshit:
  • Before Stalin there was mostly Russian Civil War, during which there were pogroms indeed, but by White Army, which perceived the Russian Revolution as "Jewish-Bolshevik plot" (Hitler was way far from being original in this respect).
  • Stalin, on the other hand, was demonstratively pro-semitic for quite a long time. His assassination of Jewish "Old Bolsheviks" was only accidental to the word "Jewish" and completely determined by the word "Old". Stalin performed horrible purges of a number of other small nations, but it seems that Jews were down his list. It is argued that he planned something for them: his last days are notable by the preparation of the trial of Doctors' plot, so Stalin's death may be rightfully added to the list of Jewish national holidays as a narrow escape.

Mikkalai

I'm thinking we should cut out all of the history section on actions taken by the Bolsheviks, limit the article to the stuff on the formation of the Bolshevik faction, and put a See also: History of the Soviet Union. There is no point in having a bunch of redundant information in here that's already better dealt with over there. Opinions? Kwertii 09:41, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think that we should give some historical background to underline why most of people looked at the bolsheviks as monsters. Actually, they were bad guys for public opinion until replaced by Nazis. WolfgangPeters 10:16, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I removed the following piece, since it is related to a later period, massive resettlement of Kulaks by Stalin.

<-- and resettlement of the 19th century which had been established to deal with political dissidents and common criminals without executing them.-->

(After a second thought I simply moved it down, with more comment.) Mikkalai 18:41, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

politic / religion

why the hell is it important if there were jews ? there were christians too, as well as atheists. it simply makes no point to mention the religion of its members, while describing a political non-religious party, as the bolsheviks.

if, on the other hand, it regards to jews as a tribe or a race, then the entry in itself is rascist....Sedan 17:43, 16 Mar 2004

I thought over this issue many times on different occasions and when editing different articles. In case you didn't notice, quite a few major countries has subsections or full articles specifically devote to jews, see e.g., List of Jewish history topics . It could seem annoying at first. But if you think that Jews lived two millenia in diaspora, without a country on which they could "concentrate" the articles of their long history, you'll understand that to cover the history of Jews, you must make branches of many and many articles. This has nothing to do neither with zionism nor with anti-Semitism. Mikkalai 16:58, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The Jewish Bolshevik stuff is really a side issue and belongs in the article on the history of Jews in the Soviet Union. It does not merit this much space. I can think of no encyclopedia article on Bolsehvism I've seen that gives so much space to the question except maybe the Jewish Encyclopedia AndyL 01:35, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Have moved the section on Jews to History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union AndyL 01:39, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article discuss 1917 just a wee bit???AndyL

One would think. john 06:33, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Post 1918 info moved to Communist Party of the Soviet Union since the Bolsheviks were known as Communists after 1918.

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AndyL you have done a lot of good work here. Do you think we should have more discussion of what was at stake, tactically and ideologically, in the division between Menshiviks and Bolsheviks? I also wonder if we need to say something about the relationship (and competition) between the Party and the Soviets during the revolution -- that is, if we want to identify Bolshevism with "Marxism-Leninism." What do you and others think? Slrubenstein

I don't really have time right now. Perhaps someone else could?AndyL 16:57, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Last moves

There was no such thing "Bolshevik Party". There were a factions of bolsheviks and mensheviks. Mikkalai 15:52, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

True enough. I think Bolsheviks would make more sense thoughAndyL 16:56, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yep. But it is easier to create links from singular (you can bracket both [bolshevik] and [bolshevik]s). Also, Wikipedia:naming conventions advises usage of sungular, unless it is really unusable. Mikkalai 17:00, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)