Talk:Baseball
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Basepath lengths for other leagues?
Yeah, I was just wondering, the 90 feet to first/second/third/home is what is used in MLB. But perhaps we should state that that may be different in Little League (I know it's different in LL) or high school (not sure). I know that college uses the same difference. But I think we should mention what the other variations. are.--Gamingboy 17:54, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
- I think its probably only worth mentioning the very common one here. Yes, high schools do use 90 feet, so do all professional leagues I know of besides MLB. Using smaller size fields is pretty traditional for childrens sports, including soccer, and american football, I don't know if we should confuse people by simply calling this an mlb regulation field, when basically everyone but childrens leagues use it. Perhaps a good place to add the rare exceptions would be Baseball field. —siroχo 21:31, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
recent edits
Congratulations on this being a featured site! That is fantastic. Sports shopping and sports store are valid categories I believe, and was surprised they were taken out. What do other people think? Do you know how many people buy sports gifts for others (not to mention themselves) in this country (world), and those topics contained resource value talking about shopping comparison sites etc. and several examples. Any post we do has to be valuable for the Wikipedia reader on that topic otherwise we don't do it. Thanks!
What the heck is beepball? Unless someone writes an aricle explaining such a game and therein makes a case for its popularity (I've never heard of it), I'd like to delete that from the article. --Locarno 13:28, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I object to the inclusion of God Bless America on the main page. Don't get me wrong: I love the song, I love God, I love America; I just don't think this is important enough to baseball. It is not (yet) an established tradition, nor is it so readily identified with the stretch as the article implies. (For example, in Minnesota we sing God Bless the USA after Take Me Out to the Ball Game). I think this would not have even been inserted if not for Ronan Tynan. I will delete it unless a case is made here in the next three days.. --Locarno 17:46, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- OK, that may be POV on my part as I am a Yankee fan and they've almost totally replaced "Ball Game" with "GBA." "Ball Game" is now relegated to the organist. I had no idea other stadiums had eschewed the change; I had heard most parks were playing "GBA" on Sundays. Anyway, I have no problem with editing out "GBA," but if any mention of singing during the seventh inning stretch remains, it should be noted that "Ball Game" used to be universal but it's position has been challenged post 9/11. Maybe the details can be worked out over at seventh-inning stretch? --Feitclub 22:00, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
- The article does not imply that "Ball Game" is universal, only that it is very common. That is still accurate, in my judgment. I reverted this section back to how it was--hope this is okay. --Locarno 13:57, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I think we need to resist the temptation to add interesting peripheral information, such as the recent additions to "History" about the staticity of the rules. This article is too big already! I moved that to baseball rules. --Locarno 13:11, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Howzzat?
I mentioned that I would try and frame a sentence about the two points I've raised above. How are the following?
In each inning, after three batters are put out, the team in the defense takes its turn to bat. Play continues in a similar manner. Now when the team regains its offense, the batter next in line in the batting lineup will take his place on the home-plate. All runners are cleared from the bases (removed from play); after the previous half-inning, so there will be no runners on base. Play continues with the batters following him in the line-up also making their plate appearance. After the ninth batter makes his appearance, the first batter in the lineup goes out to bat.
In baseball, all three batters can be put out in a single play. This is rare however, but a more common occurance is the double play in which two batters are out in a single play, usually through force-outs.
[[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 18:44, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
- This is all already covered in the "Team at Bat" section. Instead of thinking of new ways to word it, instead answer for me, what is not clear in that section? --Locarno 19:31, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
(One more thing: if six umpires are used, what do the extra two do?)
- The fifth and sixth umpires are stationed in the outfield near the foul lines. They make fair/foul and catch/no catch calls in the outfield, as well as watching for the ball going out of play or fan interference. Also, if a base umpire needs to leave the infield to make a call (like near the foul fence), the right field umpire may "rotate" in to cover a potential play at first base. All in all, the details of six-man umpiring mechanics are far too much detail for this article. Maybe umpire mechanics (baseball)?
- No I do not wish it be up here, I was just curious about the umpires, as it wasn't covered in the umpire article. I edited some of the text which I found to be a little unclear. It may require some copyediting though. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:25, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
- Sure, I understand...any other questions, feel free to ask. --Locarno 02:48, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- No I do not wish it be up here, I was just curious about the umpires, as it wasn't covered in the umpire article. I edited some of the text which I found to be a little unclear. It may require some copyediting though. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:25, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
- I reverted your edits regarding this, Nick. Please focus on asking questions on what is unclear to you, because I think everything you addressed is crystal clear. Here's the existing text, with relevant sections bolded:
- The ultimate goal of the team at bat is to score runs. The team at bat sends its nine players up to home plate as batters in an order called a lineup. Each team sets its batting lineup at the beginning of the game and may not change the order, except by sending in substitute players. A substitute player fills the same spot in the order as the player he replaced; however, he is not required to play the same position in the field. After the ninth player has batted, the order returns to the beginning with the first player in the lineup. Batting out of turn is not allowed. Once a runner reaches home plate, they score a run, and then are "removed" from the bases (they go sit down) and the next player in the lineup bats.
- Each player's turn at the plate is a plate appearance. When the batter hits a fair ball, he must run to first base, and may continue or stop at any base unless he is put out. A successful hit where the batter reaches only first base is a single; if he reaches second base, a double; or third base, a triple. A hit that allows the batter to touch all bases in order on the same play is a home run, whether or not the ball is hit over the fence. Once a runner is held to a base, he may attempt to advance at any time, but is not required to do so unless the batter or another runner displaces him.
- Depending on the way the ball comes off the bat, the play is called something different. A batted ball is called a fly ball if it was hit in a way causing the fielder to catch it on its descent, or a line drive if it is hit in the air, but on a line. A batted ball which is not hit into the air, and which touches the ground within the infield before it can be caught, is called a ground ball.
- Once the batter and any existing runners have all stopped at a base or been put out, the ball is returned to the pitcher, and the next batter comes to the plate. This continues until three outs have been recorded, at which point all runners are removed from the bases and the teams exchange sides for the next half-inning. After the opposing team bats in its own order and three more outs are recorded, the first team's batting order will continue again from where it left off.
Locarno, the reason why I edited the text was that the current text did not convey the exact information I was looking for (Alas, I know I am getting on yor nerves). It did not strike me that the runners are seated. To clarify what happens, I expanded the sentence. (I hope that my edit was not misleading). As I have never watched a baseball game, I thought that my edit would be more clear to people like me (especially people from South Asia). Anyways, that was all that I needed to know in the page, so let me know when you are fully done, I'll give another reading to the article. If the page size is <32 kb, I'll vote in affirmative, the next time it comes. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 18:46, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)
- I think your question is still answered by the (they go sit down) part in the article. Does this answer all your objections? I'm going to try to fix all the other objections that others stated, but I could use some help from Siroxo or anyone else. This article is almost ready. Also, I've worked on a lot of the linked articles; I invite you to come criticize them as well, if you feel like it--particularly Interference (baseball), obstruction (baseball), or anything in the Baseball rules category. Thanks again for your perspective! --Locarno 20:38, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Regarding this "They go sit down" section, I've reworded that sentence a bit, to convey that the next batter does not necessarily come up (passe d balls/wild pitches, or even stealing home). Also I changed the notion of "sit down" to "leave play". Also, sorry for my absence, I was away from computers for a few days. —siroχo
Progress on To Do items
I think we're done with "Move rules and details from the play of the game section to individual articles...". Agree? --Locarno 16:35, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Agreed. We should keep in mind that people have a tendency to add these things here every once in a while, so it'll be an ongoing task to do minor filtering for this article, but it can be striken from to do. Anybody on the baseball field diagram yet? —siroχo
I also refined the history/international baseball section, I'll strike that one from the to do, but please proofread it also. --Locarno 21:21, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Unaddressed objections?
(Locarno 21:37, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)) We should decide if these objections should be "fixed" or not, or if we've already addressed them sufficiently. Please use strikethrough as before to denote done:
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Object. Although the writing is good, the article mostly touches upon the rules of play, and how a game is played, save one section on Pro baseball. Maybe this page could better be organized like the country pages, with the main article briefly explaining all the aspects (including history, culture, etc.) and with separate articles dedicated to the subtopics. A minor objection is that all measures are only given in imperial units; metric units should also be given.Jeronimo 10:14, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC) -
Excellently written article. Not a word about college baseball, but given how long the article is already, I'm not sure that that's a bad thing.Isomorphic 05:52, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC) -
Could we standardise the punctuation? We use for em dashes both "--" and " - " We also have a usage of the second person that could be eliminated.-- Emsworth 23:59, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)- Fixed dashes and second person. --Locarno 17:35, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Cuba's dominance in the World Cup is mentioned, but the historical dominance in the Major Leagues of New York is not.(removed Cuba)- "In the United States, baseball has often been called the "national pastime", and the total attendance for Major League games is more than that of all other American professional sports combined." Surely, this is because each team plays 162 games each season? The article should make mention of the same.
- I don't think this matters as much. Clearly there is a demand for these games. I often wonder what baseball attendance would be if each team only played 8 home games per year...probably would also get 60,000 or more just like football--or if the NFL played 6 games per week, attendance would probably fall below the average for baseball--there's no way to say for sure, but that's my hypothetical situation. Anyway, the statement is factually correct, and I believe the article does a good job at saying that Baseball is very popular in the U.S. while also stating that the NFL is more popular by some measurements. Nichalp, as an East Asian, would not likely think that football or baseball are necessarily more popular from this article alone---right? --Locarno 18:29, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- As the article stands at this moment, it is not presenting the fact that the NFL can be more popular; it's simply stating that MLB is the most popular bar none no questions asked. The most recent edit to this statement mentions that it was discussed in here, but I do not see any discussion regarding the phrasing of this. I'd like to point out that the phrase "by any measurement" sounds a lot like something a baseball fan would say. Nothing wrong with baseball fans, but it's not entirely a neutral statement in my mind. [[User:Mo0|Mo0[talk]]] 17:15, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I don't think this matters as much. Clearly there is a demand for these games. I often wonder what baseball attendance would be if each team only played 8 home games per year...probably would also get 60,000 or more just like football--or if the NFL played 6 games per week, attendance would probably fall below the average for baseball--there's no way to say for sure, but that's my hypothetical situation. Anyway, the statement is factually correct, and I believe the article does a good job at saying that Baseball is very popular in the U.S. while also stating that the NFL is more popular by some measurements. Nichalp, as an East Asian, would not likely think that football or baseball are necessarily more popular from this article alone---right? --Locarno 18:29, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- The article refers in all cases only to individuals of the masculine gender (as in "his"); as females find themselves capable of playing the sport, "his or her," and the like, would be preferable.
- Does anyone know where the Wiki policy is on gender-inclusive language? This article would be much worse if we had to write "his or her" all the time. --Locarno 17:38, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- The layout of images in the section "The play of the game" seems messy. -- Emsworth 01:12, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Gameplay Overview" section removed
I removed the General Overview section, (incorporating some of it into the intro part of the Gameplay section, now a subsection called "General structure"). After reading through the removed section several times, and attempting to make it less cryptic, I realized that baseball simply cannot be explained with so few sentences. We would have to expand that section, eventually duplicating much info presented in the article. What is now called the "General structure" section adresses how a game is played without going into details. We will have to continue refining the presentation of information to attempt to accomplish the goal of General Overview in this section, without being so nondescript. —siroχo
pix
The new pic of the pitcher's motion looks to be backwards to me. I prefer the old one. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 19:29, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
Ready for renomination on FAC?
I think this is ready for renomination, I think everything within reason has been fixed, but I'll wait to see if anyone points anything out for a bit before doing so. —siroχo 05:22, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
- Hear, hear! --Locarno 15:08, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I've renominated it, everyone go support it if you think it deserves it. --Locarno 14:46, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for nominating it, it slipped my mind —siroχo
- I'm surprised it wasn't already an FA. Krupo 05:29, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
attendance figures
From Kenn (http://www.kenn.com):
- 2003 total attendance, American professional sports (final digits rounded)
- BASEBALL: 2400 games, 67 million attendance, 28,000 average/game
- BASKETBALL: 1200 games, 20 million attendance, 17,000 average/game
- FOOTBALL: 250 games, 17 million attendance, 67,000 average/game
- HOCKEY: 1200 games, 20 million attendance, 16,000 average/game
- SOCCER: 150 games, 2 million attendance, 15,000 average/game
- NON-BASEBALL COMBINED: 2800 games, 60 million attendance, 22,000 average/game
In other words, when all other pro sports are COMBINED, baseball has FEWER games, but MORE attendance. Does this settle it once and for all?? Revolver 18:54, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Well ... no. Because in terms of games played, the NBA and NHL swamp all the other (non-baseball) sports. There aren't enough NFL games to register (and college football, which is often fantastically well attended, and probably as good quality as AAA baseball, is conveniently omitted by virtue of its amateur status. College baseball is neither as popular or as good. (Almost no one jumps from college to the majors, John Olerud not withstanding) . So you *might* argue that baseball was more popular than hockey or basketball. Except, those two games are usually played in tiny arenas, so total the attendance, it might be argued (I've no idea either way) does not actually reflect the popularity. It's a meaningless claim, with no useable metric to decide it one way or the other, so lets leave it out. GWO
The above figures do not count the very small leagues (arena football, lacrosse, etc.) If you count these, then technically the others combined just slightly surpass baseball, by a couple million at most. The average attendance edge would not be changed, though. And I think the "major 5" (MLB, NFL, NBA, MLS, and NHL) are what most people have in mind.
Pitching
I know next to nothing about Baseball, but I was curious about this when I read the article:
Is there a limit on how many times a pitcher can pitch the ball? The article mentions that there is no limit on the number of pitchers that can be used. Is there a limit on how many times a pitcher can pitch? For example, in one-day cricket, a bowler (the cricket analogue of a pitcher) can only pitch 60 balls in a game (that is an over-simplified statement, but that is the general idea).
Also, can the pitcher keep pitching continuously until the pitcher is changed? Again, in cricket, you can only pitch 6 times in a row, and then another pitcher takes your place. He will pitch 6 times and then you can come back and pitch another 6 times, and so on. Is there anything like that in Baseball, or can you keep pitching?
Also, who makes the decision on when to change the pitcher, etc? The coach?
--ashwatha 08:38, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- No, there's no limit on how many pitches a pitcher can throw, except that his arm will eventually fatigue. These days, most starting pitchers will throw around 90-110 pitches per start, but could throw as many as 150. There's some evidence that these workloads can cause serious arm damage though. A pitcher will usually pitch continuously, until he is replaced ("relieved") because of tiredness or ineffectiveness. Once he leaves the game, he can't come back and pitch again. He could, in theory, stay in the game playing another position, and then return and pitch again later. This never happens. -- GWO
- As this article is about more than professional baseball, the same applies to amateurs, except that most amateur leagues have a reentry rule which allows any starter, even the pitcher, to reenter the game after being removed. Pitchers in amateur leagues will more often stay in the game after they are done pitching. The manager (baseball's name for the head coach) makes the decision at all levels. --Locarno 16:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks a lot! --ashwatha 19:12, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Fielding positions
Just had a question about the naming of fielding positions in Baseball - the article says that the second baseman and the shortstop stand on either side of the second base (one to the right and one to the left). Is that right and left from the catcher's perspective? For instance, in cricket, fielding positions are named from the batter's perspective, so the naming of fielding positions depends on whether the batter is right-handed or left-handed. Is that true in Baseball too? If they are being named from the catcher's perspective, the batter being right-handed or left-handed obviously doesn't matter. --ashwatha 16:42, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- That is from the catcher's perspective, though the article also describes their positioning in more absolute terms:
- The second baseman and the shortstop position themselves in the gaps on either side of second base, toward first and third base, respectively.
- Does that answer your question? - jredmond 17:27, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I missed the descriptions in absolute terms. Thanks for the clarification. --ashwatha 19:47, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Should we mention somewhere in here about "shifts" where the fielders move around to try to stop particular hitters? Right now, Barry Bonds often faces this shift. --Woohookitty 20:16, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- There's already something like that:
- The locations of the fielders are not specified by the rules. Players often shift their positioning in response to specific batters or game situations, and they may exchange positions with one another at any time.
- I'd prefer this version to anything specifically mentioning Barry Bonds, since teams often shift their fielders from batter to batter (and sometimes pitch to pitch, especially if there are baserunners). - jredmond 20:55, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I added the sentence The right fielder generally has the strongest arm of all the outfielders due to the need to make throws on runners attempting to take third base. This is similar to the description of the center fielder and is a big part of playing right field.
Request for more info
I don't feel expert enough to edit the article, but it seems to me it lacks explanations on force situations and force outs.
Should the history section include something about Abner Doubleday and Cooperstown?
What about famous rivalries like Red Sox/Yankees and Cubs/Cards?
The Basic Definition
The basic definition "Baseball is a team sport, in which a fist-sized ball is thrown by a player called a pitcher and hit with a bat" seems like it's lacking something. There needs to be mention of who hits it and what happens then: perhaps "hit with a bat by a player from the opposing team" or "attempted to be hit with a bat by a player from the opposing team".
Em Dashes in the Statistics Section
There are too many em dashes in a few sentences in the statistics section; they should be limited to 2 per sentence. —Wayward 08:28, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
ADMINS-PLEASE SAVE THIS PAGE!
Ok-Someone has been vandalizing this page-see history. Admins-please take action against this person as they are destroying some of Wikipedia's best work.
- The vandalism you saw was actually fixed nearly two hours ago. I suspect you're seeing an outdated cached version. I've gone ahead and purged this article's cached copy, so if you hit reload on your browser the article should look fine now. -- Hadal 03:28, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Talk about how every stadium is unique
In the "Baseball's Unique Style" section, i think it would be good to have a description of how different the stadiums are from each other. For example, while playing one basketball arena is pretty much the same, at least in terms of gameplay, as any other arena, in baseball there are all sorts of variations from park to park.
Who hasn't heard an announcer say, "That flyout would have been a home run if this were a home game" (or vice versa)? And dimensions are just the beginning:
Dealing with the Green Monster at Fenway Park, catching a popup in the vast foul territory off third base in Oakland, hitting one off a catwalk at the Metrodome .. the hill in Houston.. From 1932 to 1973, there were stone monuments in fair territory in Yankee Stadium's center field. What sport can compare to that?
Actually, I started a section on it, but I really think it should be its own article, so I will have a short summary in the baseball article and then I'll point it to the full article on baseball parks. I think it's big enough. --Woohookitty 08:10, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What does "K" mean in baseball?
What are the "K"s a refference to in baseball? e.g. sometimes you see fans hang up a series of "K"s in the stadium or Arena. What do they mean? or symbolize?
- When you score a game, K symbolized a strikeout. Usually, a regular K is a swinging strikeout while a backwards K signifies a strikeout looking, which means that the ball went through the strike zone but the batter did not swing. --Woohookitty 17:13, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)