Talk:Ashkenazi

Contents

1 Question on table 2 Koestler, Khazars, etc. 2.1 Moved from Article 3 Intelligence 4 Disputed 5 History 6 Ashke-what? 7 absolute pitch? 8 IQ 9 Cochran study

Question on table

Does "nn" stand for "not known"? I'm confused by this -- can someone who knows more about this than I do fix this?

• nn is sort of a generic numeric variable, and stands in for a place where a number is needed. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:54, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

Koestler, Khazars, etc.

If you have a problem with the contents of Koestler and Wexler's books, I'd suggest you articulate those objections in an impartial and scholarly manner inside the article. Of course, that also means you'll have to explain the ideas that are contained in those books. Putting a "disclaimer" above the books as you have done is not NPOV. If you can't keep your emotions or personal biases out of the article, maybe you shouldn't be editing it.

---

You are correct to ask for an explanation for such statements; I am happy to provide such an explanation. In regards to Arthur Koestler's 1976 book, The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and Its Heritage (Random House), I offer the following information. Most of the significant claims in his book have been throughly debunked by historians.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/8646

...Leon Wieseltier can only be commended for debunking Arthur Koestler's attempt to rehabilitate the long discredited theory of the non-Semitic origins of East European Jewry [NYR, October 28].

A glance at Koestler's intellectual meanderings and fluctuations across the past three decades can only lead one to conclude that his intentions this time around in The Thirteenth Tribe were not the advancement of knowledge but cruel mischief, unforgiveable attention seeking (considering the predictable Arab response already noted by Wieseltier). Koestler, therefore, deserves to be openly chastised for misusing his considerable intellectual talents and devoting them to such a peripheral theory bordering on fantastic speculation, a tangential issue in Jewish history even in its heyday a generation or so ago.

Professor Henry R. Huttenbach, Department of History, The City University of New York, New York City

RECOGNIZING CHRISTIAN IDENTITY and Koestler's book (http://www.theamericanvoice.com/ChristIdentity.html)

Book review followed by point by poitn refutations (http://web.archive.org/web/20030515113444/http://home.uchicago.edu/~jas/papers/khazaria.html)

Errors in the Thirteenth Tribe, by Kevin Brook (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&th=5d23a461706d523d&rnum=2)

---

[Kevin Brooks, a historian on this subject (http://www.khazaria.com/brookcv.html)] writes in a Usenet newsgroup post:

From: Kevin Brook

Subject: Re: Khazars

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Date: 2001-12-17 16:43:19 PST

Many elements of Arthur Koestler's thesis were proven false, while a few others were proven true. Some of his false claims are:

• His concept that German Jews did not migrate to eastern Europe in large numbers.
• His claim that French and German Jews mostly died out in the Middle Ages.
• His exaggerated population figures for Khazaria.
• His claim that Crimean Karaites descend from Khazars.
• His supposition, based on Gumplowitz and other Polish Jewish scholars, that certain Polish placenames were named after Khazars. Only in Hungary and Transylvania do we find placenames that actually come from Khazars.
• His claim, based on Mieses, that an Austrian legend about Jewish princes was based on the Khazar rule of Hungary.
• His claim, based on Poliak, that Ashkenazic shtetls were derived from Khazar village life.
• His claim that Ashkenazic Jews have hardly any genetic or anthropological connections to the ancient Judeans.

The following book reviews of his "The Thirteenth Tribe" provide various opinions (Rosensweig, Wieseltier, Szyszman, and Majeski are highly critical of Koestler's book but sometimes their criticisms are illegitimate; by contrast, MacLean, Steiner, Cumming, Schechner, and some other reviewers were more positive):

Abramsky, Chimen. "The Khazar Myth." Jewish Chronicle (April 9, 1976).

Adams, P. L. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Atlantic 238 (September 1976): 97.

Anonymous. "Lost Empire: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Economist 259 (April 24, 1976): 121.

Blumstock, Robert. "Going Home: Arthur Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe." Jewish Social Studies 48:2 (1986): 93-104.

Brace, Keith. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Birmingham Post (1976).

Cameron, James. "Ask the Rabbi: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." New Statesman 91 (April 9, 1976): 472.

Cumming, John. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") The Tablet (1976).

Du Boulay, F. R. H. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") London Times Educational Supplement (June 18, 1976).

Fox, Robin Lane. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") The Financial Times (1976).

Fuller, Edmund. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Wall Street Journal (1976).

Grossman, Edward. "Koestler's Jewish Problem: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Commentary 62 (December 1976): 59-64.

Kanen, R. A. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Library Journal 101 (August 1976): 1632.

Kirsch, Robert. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Los Angeles Times (1976).

Klausner, Carla L. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Kansas City Times and Star (September 12, 1976).

Maccoby, Hyam. "The Khazars and the Jews: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." The Listener 95 (April 8, 1976): 450.

MacLean, Fitzroy. "Shalom Yisrah: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." New York Times Book Review (August 29, 1976): 4.

Majeski, Jane. "Chutzpah: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." National Review 27 (November 12, 1976): 1248-1249.

Mason, Philip. "The Birth of the Jews? The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Spectator 236 (April 10, 1976): 19.

Meyer, Karl E. "Conversion in Khazaria: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Saturday Review 3 (August 21, 1976): 40.

Raphael, Chaim. "Chosen Peoples: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Times Literary Supplement (June 11, 1976): 696.

Rosensweig, Bernard. "The Thirteenth Tribe, the Khazars and the Origins of East European Jewry." Tradition 16:5 (Fall 1977):139-162.

Salamone, V. A. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Best Sellers 36 (November 1976): 262.

Schechner, Mark. "All the Difference in the World: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." Nation 223:17 (November 20, 1976): 535-536.

Sheppard, R. Z. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Time 108 (August 23, 1976): 60.

Sokolov, Raymond. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") Newsweek. 1976.

Steiner, George. (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") The Sunday Times (April 6, 1976).

Szyszman, Simon. "La question des Khazars essai de mise au point." Jewish Quarterly Review 73:2 (October 1982): 189-202.

Toynbee, Philip. "Who Are the Jews? The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." London: Observer (April 4, 1976): 27.

Wieseltier, Leon. "You Don't Have to Be Khazarian: The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler." New York Review of Books (October 28, 1976): 33-36.

(Author?) (review of Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe.") New Yorker 52 (September 20, 1976): 145.

Moved from Article

Intelligence

I moved this from the article after hearing that it was it at least rewritten carefully citing an actual study, metrics and particulars of any study -- if not simply removed.

Ashkenazic Jews are the group with the best results in intelligence testing.

Their contribution to many areas of cultural achievements (for example: philosophy, physics, mathematics, chemistry, music, psychology, biology, medicine) far exceeds their proportion in the general population.

See:[1] (http://www.jinfo.org)

Please refer to race and intelligence for a theory of the coincidence of higher IQ and neurological disease in Ashkenazi Jews.

Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 04:00, Apr 18, 2004 (UTC)

Hi Bcorr, you are correct that this description is very sketchy. It's an echo of the material on race and intelligence, which seems to have come mainly from Greg Cochran's (http://jerrypournelle.com/reports/cochran/overclocking.html) article on Jerry Pournelle's Chaos Manor page. Greg Cochran is an evolutionary biologist with an interest in neurology, as evidenced from PubMed. This article, "How the Ashkenazi Got Their Smarts", circulates in various blogs and other resources, and never does he quote a peer-reviewed article. Perhaps most can be gained by contacting him, (he works at Amherst College, MA, dept of biology). I've been unable to figure out his email address - perhaps you have ways. At any rate, this is not the first time I've heard an evolutionary biologist make rather off-the-hand remarks that turn out to be wild speculation. JFW | T@lk 16:01, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Disputed

Has anyone else actually read the massive material recently added to the article? It is a lengthy tract claiming that the Ashkenazi are not descended from the Biblical Jews. As far as I know, this is very much a minority opinion, as inappropriate as an earlier article that claimed that the Pashtoon are descended from the Biblical Jews. I suggest reversion to User:Esparkhu's version of 10:39, Nov 26, 2004. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:20, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

It's mostly Khazaria nonsense; the cites given (for example Brooks) don't come to the conclusions the author of this article has. While the information about Khazar Jews may be accurate to a degree (if outdated), the claim that Ashkenazi Jews and Khazars are the same is simply not true. Genetic and linguistic evidence indicates that Ashkenazi Jews descended from Jews living in the Roman empire, and particularly the Italian regions, who migrated northwards from there to Germany, where Yiddish began to develop, and from there eastwards to Poland, Hungary, Ukraine etc. It is possible that Khazar Jews make up some of the ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews, but it is a minority at most, and that connection is itself still unproven. As Brooks himself concludes "Are all Jews around the world descended from the Khazars? Certainly not. East European Jewish ancestry originates substantially from ancient Judea, and the same is true of most other modern Jewish populations (with the exception of groups like Libyan Jews and Ethiopian Jews). But, it is rational to conclude that some Jews also have some Khazar ancestors." Jayjg 02:30, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also, in Polish history it is noted that at the moment Poles came into contact with the Khazars, there were already Jews in Poland - and these groups were considered completely distinct, both by the outside world and by themselves. [[User:Halibutt|[[User:Halibutt|]]]] 02:44, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

While I'm the farthest thing from an expert on the subject, I do find the "Ashkenazi = Khazars" claim to be rather contrary, if not completely antic. Also, couldn't we do better than quoting large, repetitious chunks of fourteen(!) other encyclopedias? They may just qualify as fair use (no more than 10%, etc), but I don't like the way they comprise the bulk of the history section. The hodgepodge reminds me of a lazy college student's essay. It'd be best to excise the quotes and (if possible or necessary) rewrite the data, or simply summarize. In my opinion, of course. -- Hadal 04:06, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• User:Jmabel's judgment is correct, too much speculative and hypothetical nonsense was added to the article, and so I have joined Jmabel's advice to revert and have done so. Thank you. IZAK 05:00, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

History

I'd love to see a history section. I could make a try, if nobody disagrees.--Wiglaf 16:17, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A history of what, Ashkenazi Jews? Jayjg | (Talk)</sup> 19:19, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, a short one about their immigration to the Rhineland and later migrations to Eastern Europe as well as a summary of Jews in East European history. But, that is just me, and I won't insist on such a section.--Wiglaf 23:07, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It seems reasonable to me, though there are other articles dealing with Jewish history. Ashkenazi specific stuff would make sense here. Jayjg | (Talk)</sup> 01:19, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jay, do you know if general paths of Jewish migration are already covered somewhere? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:23, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

I don't recall an article on it, I'll try to look for one tomorrow. Jayjg | (Talk)</sup> 06:32, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've been doing some reading on this lately. If we don't already have something, I'll try to help. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:04, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

The closest I can find is History of the Jews in Germany. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, Wikipedia is huge. Jayjg | (Talk)</sup> 01:06, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've found a source that is very informative on the various migrations since about 1650 (and especially since the 19th century), how the Jews fit the various societies, how some countries might be best understood as containing multiple Jewries, of the splits between Orthodox and modernizing tendencies, etc. Unfortunately, I have been able to borrow it only briefly. Someone is strongly encouraged to track down a copy and mine it heavily; with any luck I might be able to borrow it some other time myself. It is:

• Riff, Michael, The Face of Survival: Jewish Life in Eastern Europe Past and Present with personal memoirs by Hugo Gryn, Stephen Roth, Ben Helfgott and Hermy Jankel; epilogue by Rabbi Moses Rosen. Valentine Mitchell, London, 1992, ISBN 0853032203.

I read it this weekend & took a lot of notes. Not as detailed as I hoped, but very suggestive. I've found material to add to a lot of articles. I'll add to various places over the next few weeks. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:09, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

The Riff book has a lot of good detail, especially post-1850, but that isn't where the story should start. Some points that should make it into the article:

1. During and after the Chmielnicki Uprising (1648–1654) tens of thousands of Jews were killed. Prior to that, there were some 200,000 Jews in Poland. This triggered the first of many waves of migration out of that area. Probably half of the Jews either were killed or left.
2. Another major migration in 2nd half of 18th century triggered by Poland's political decline.
3. Because of this and other migrations over the next 250 years, many areas of East Central Europe had growing populations of Jews, often with Galician roots. In areas where the economy was largely rural and undeveloped -- Northeastern Slovakia, Sub-Carpathian Ruthenia, parts of Transylvania -- they often became intermediaries (peddlers, even lessors or managers of noble estates). Also, many Jew migrated to the cities, where a lot became involved in commerce and industry. Transylvania & Sub-Carpatathia developed density of Jews comparable to Galicia. Moldova (where they were about 20%) similarly.
4. Urbanization: Jews from Prussian Poland mostly went to Berlin and Breslau. "By the turn of the century over a third of the Jews in Bohemia (92,746) lived in Prague and its immediate environs, while nearly a quarter of those in Moravia lived in Brno." [Riff, p. 31]
5. By the time of the rise of nationalism in the 19th century, Jews constituted a very large proportion of the middle class in East Central Europe. During late A-H Empire, middle mgt & bureaucracy., + banking, retail, and "the free professions". As a result, as national elites grew and were competing for middle-class role, it was Jews they were competing with.
6. Assimilation and acculturation took many different directions. In Hungarian-ruled areas, even most Orthodox learned Hungarians and saw themselves as "Magyars of the Hebrew persuasion". Similarly, in Austrian-ruled Bohemia and Moravia, Jews were acculturated as Germans, but after independence learned Czech. Similar in lesser degree elsewhere, even at times Poland.
7. The Kresy (part of Russian Empire: Polish Lithuania-Belarus & Volynia): ethnically diverse, politically backward. Relative lack of anti-semitism. Shtetls intact, Jews were about half (or even more) of the larger towns. Acculturation was toward Russians, and not much of it at that, because the towns were more Jewish than Russian.
8. Important social splits: Orthodox, Hasids, (post 1890s) Zionists of various persuasions, Folkists (nationalist, like the Zionists, but wanting to remain geographically where they were), various religious reform movements, esp. the Neolog in Hungarian areas, Bundists and other socialists, I'm sure things are missing from this list.
9. Important geographical issues: Can't be neatly divided by country, and besides, borders moved. Speaking of Poland c. 1900, Riff (p.30) writes that it had "Not one Jewry, but several" in different parts of the country.

Ashke-what?

Should there be an explanation of how to pronounce the term? Yes, I know, Wikipedia is not a dictionary, but at least The World Book Encyclopedia puts pronunciations at the top of many of its articles, and I'm guessing a lot of readers would see the "nazi" in the name, try to pronounce it "not-see" to sound like the name of one of the major ideologies opposing Judaism, and imagine allegations of Nazi-Ashkenazi collaboration (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/israel.htm). --Damian Yerrick 00:45, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Go for it. We sometimes do that, especially on foreign words (see SAMPA and ISA for modes of phonetic spelling; probably give both), and I have heard this one innocently mispronounced. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:17, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

absolute pitch?

The following was added anonymously and without citation to the "medicine" section: "However, an interesting note is that there is a relatively high occurence of absolute pitch in Ashkenazim." I've brought that over here pending citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:39, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

IQ

"Many studies report Ashkenazim to have the highest average IQ of any ethnic group, with the most pronounced gains in tests of verbal ability."

This is errenous. The Japanese are the world smartest people with an IQ of 111. The Ashkenazim in the United States have an IQ of 115 but elsewhere they do not. The Ashkenazim in Israel for example score on average 100. (User:Egud 7 May 2005)

Cochran study

I'm not sure that citing Cochrane is "original research", isn't it rather reporting the (controversial) research of these authors? Furthermore, the reversion by Jdwolff reverted all of the objective information about IQ testing (citations of other studies) which have nothing to do with Cochran at all. Also he removed the Nobel prize information, again an objective fact, not related to Cochran per se. Kaisershatner 17:27, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the study of Cochrane and the rest of the University of Utah team is being published in the Journal of Biosocial Science. The study is not any more controversial than any other intelligence research on ethnicity and is being[expected to be] followed up with further studies.--Nectarflowed ^T 00:40, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

At the moment, the paragraph gives immense credit to Cochran, who is just a clever loudmouth and has pushed for his research to be published in The Economist before it had even reached the professional literature and been exposed to peer review, expert commentary and the inevitable letters to the editor.

The paragraph should take the following form:

• Reliable statistical source that Ashkenazim are in the world's top percentiles of IQ.
• Examples (e.g. ACM prizewinners)
• Theories
  • Conventional theories
  • Radical theories, e.g. Cochran and his lot.

Of course this paragraph is very easily misunderstood, and if not written properly will lend credence to anti-Semites (look, the Jews are just so @#^(*# clever, you can never win while they move to dominate the world, better kill 'em off etc etc). JFW | T@lk 10:39, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just for fun, look at this. The blog exposure to Cochran's speculative theories has been quite stunning. Long live PageRank. JFW | T@lk 10:46, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have now rewritten the paragraph in a way that does not make Cochran and his lot look like they've invented the concept. I have also offered an alternative theory, which I have been unable to source but should definitely be mentioned. I must say that employment in "finance and trade" as insisted by Greg is rather stereotypical. Most Jews in 17th-20th century Poland and Russia were farmers and craftspeople; they were also very poor. JFW | T@lk 10:58, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cochran himself mentions other theories, some of which he suggests are possible, and one is somewhat related to your theory. I'm uncomfortable with providing theories without citation, it smacks of original research. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:19, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nectarflowed, I don't think we should use footnotes to link to other Wikipedia articles. This is really a novelty. Otherwise, you have done very well in rewriting my dabbling. JFW | T@lk 06:32, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but I do think in this case footnotes may be a good choice. Simply referencing the same sources that race and intelligence references, such as _{Snyderman, M., & Rothman, S. (1987). Survey of expert opinion on intelligence and aptitude testing. American Psychologist, 42, 137–144)}, but not dealing with the statements and their surrounding issues and objections in depth, as 'race and intelligence' does, would not give readers the same level of verifiability.--Nectarflowed ^T 21:15, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm just saying it has no precendent, and more conventional approaches would be better. JFW | T@lk 18:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A Haredi reaction to Greg (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Are_Jews_Smarter$.asp). I will condense this later. JFW | T@lk 06:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)