Talk:Alphabets derived from the Latin
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Which letters are considered part of the alphabet?
The information presented here is inconsistent as to which letters are considered part of the alphabet... for example, "ä" in Swedish is a letter in the alphabet and has its own order, whereas e.g. French "é" is considered a variant of "e". So this list is a mixture of "letters in the alphabet of language X" and "letters used when writing language X [regardless of whether they are considered separate letters of not]".
Similarly with digraphs which are mentioned in the notes below the tables; for example, some languages consider "ch" a separate letter, with its own position in the alphabetical order, while others use the digraph in their writing to represent one sound but sort it as the two letters c-h. -- pne 16:12, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Also, some languages include letters as part of the alphabet which are only used in foreign words - for example, Q or K or W or Y, depending on the language. How to treat those? -- pne 16:15, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- As far as I am concerned if a language considers a letter part of its alphabet, then it is part of its alphabet. Which means that we could go by the "X alphabet" articles, but those don't exist for all alphabets. Dori | Talk 16:18, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)
Turkish dotted/undotted I
In the table header, shouldn't one show also the upper case dotless "I" and the lower case dotted "i"? True, they are identical to the plain latin letters. But the way the table is now, it looks as if those these letters do not exist in the Turkish alphabet. (Note that this situation is different from that of ess-zet, where the uppercase form is really non-existant.)
Jorge Stolfi 15:02, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
More characters needed
HELP... Portuguese uses also the letters "Ê", "Ô", "Ã", and "Õ" which are not on the table. Unfortunately adding the letters by hand is near impossible, and after spending a couple of hours trying to do it by script I concluded that it was just as hard. If you have the tools, could you please do that for me? Thanks...
Jorge Stolfi 17:19, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- French also has Ê and Ô (as well as Û), and I when I added Maltese I wanted to add C-dot, G-dot, and H-bar as well. I'll see whether I have time to do this. -- pne 06:09, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
- OK, done. French, Portuguese, and Maltese should now be complete. -- pne 12:39, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks!! And for splitting the table, too — it is much better now.
Jorge Stolfi 15:02, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks!! And for splitting the table, too — it is much better now.
(Old) Joining the tables
Couldn't these all go on one page to aid comparison? It only about 26 letters extra for each language. Rmhermen 18:29, Nov 25, 2003 (UTC)
- I agree, if anyone feels up to doing it. Bmills 09:04, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)
A table would be nice, e.g.
| Alphabet \ Letter | A | B | C | ĉ | D | .. |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| English alphabet | A | B | C | D | .. | |
| Esperanto alphabet | A | B | C | ĉ | D | .. |
| .. | ||||||
--User:Docu
- Not sure my editing skills are up to that. I'll try to learn how later today. Bmills 08:57, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Have made table. Now I never want to see the page again! Bmills 17:09, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Great work. I like it. -- User:Docu
To add alphabets, copy the English one, and add/remove letters.
We might want to include or exclude all diacritics and fine tune collation -- User:Docu
Table changed
I've changed the table: it should be easier to edit/add new alphabets now. I've removed all diacritics, ligatures and other letters which do not exist in ASCII to after the Z.
I've also removed the Esperanto X-system: the letters like Cx are just a workaround for non-Unicode systems. If we include the X-system we ought to include the German 'e-system' as well, where ä becomes ae etc.. Jor 15:32, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Alphabetised the list (it was randomly sorted which irked me) and added Scots Gaelic to the list. Whoever originally wrote the tables can put the grave accents in their proper place - they left all fields for grave accents out as if acute accents were the only ones. Every segment has to be fixed in order to put them in now. Their fault.--172.175.248.241 07:03, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- The table is a pain, if another character is to be added. Are the accented vowels really different letters in Scots Gaelic? Many languages include diacritics which are not here marked, but only a few see these as different letters. Jor 10:43, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
New table idea
What does everyone think of the table at Alphabets_derived_from_the_Latin/Temp? It uses the new table code and should be more easy to edit, also it scrolls better since I split the basic and extended alphabet. It was very easy to fix Scots Gaelic now. I would like to replace the main article table with the new one. Jor 18:08, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)ß
- I'm generally in favour. The basic table is now clean. Only have minor remarks that also affect the original table:
- On older browsers I see → and ↓, maybe --> and v could be used?
- Again on older browsers I see lots of ? in the extended table, but it's ok in Mozilla Firefox,Opera 7.11 and IE5.50. -Wikibob 09:39, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)
- The latter problem is unavoidable, as those older browsers couldn't render the characters anyway. The same applies to modern browsers on systems without Unicode fonts (I can't see two of the chars myself on a secondary system because that system doesn't include a font for the Latin Extended-B range). Jor 13:15, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Have you tried using in the empty boxes, as is traditional in HTML tables? Oh, and actually finishing each line? The Swedish alphabet line stops because that's where you stopped entering stuff! --Phil | Talk 16:20, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)
![[1]](http://members.chello.nl/b.kroonspecker/opera-alphabet-table.jpg){kind=link}
- Strike-throughs are my displayal for visited links, ignore ;-) I do not really understand what the problem with the new table is: the existing table looks even worse in my copy of Mozilla 1.7a. It seems the worst MSIE/Gecko bugs can be fixed by adding empty cells at the end of each line. Jor 16:40, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Well I get the nasty dashes in Mozilla if I scroll down with the mouse. And I don't have enough control over the fonts in IE6 (well not so immediate anyway) so the row-height is horrid. But I contend that most of the problem is that the ends of most of the rows have not been filled in. --Phil | Talk 16:31, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)
![[2]](http://members.chello.nl/b.kroonspecker/gecko-alphabet-table.jpg){kind=link}
Much better now. Do we need to repeat the word alphabet for every single link? I think we might as well hide them, which will make the row height smaller. Also, instead of copying and pasting, we might have to delete the current page, move it, delete the redirect, and then merge in the old history. Dori | Talk 20:44, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)
- Good ideas. I'll go edit the "alphabet" words. As for the move etc., I'll leave that to someone with admin powers. Jor 20:49, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- OK, I did the move and history merge. The old version is available in the history in case someone thinks it should be reverted. I just noticed something while doing the move. The title of this article doesn't sound right. Should it be "Alphabets derived from the Latin one" or "Alphabets derived from Latin"? The current title doesn't make much sense to me. Dori | Talk 21:15, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)
- I think it should be "Latin-based alphabets" (or perhaps "Latin-derived alphabets"). Titles should be succinct. The preposition from is redundant, it doesn't help explaining what the article is about.
- —Herbee 21:35, 2004 Mar 18 (UTC)
Alphabet order
Why are the Ø and Œ columns in front of all the A's in the "Extended Latin Alphabet" table? I would expect them with the O's. The ß is with the S's, after all. Does anyone mind if I change this?
—Herbee 21:51, 2004 Mar 18 (UTC)
- They Ø is only there because when I changed the table I didn't move it, and the Œ was inserted later. It probably makes more sense to put them with the O's. — Jor (Darkelf) 22:09, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Latin ligatures
AFAIK the Latin alphabet used Æ and Œ too. Shouldn't there be a "Latin" row at the top of the "Extended latin" table?
Trouble ahead
It seems wrong to include just a random subset of languages in the table and leave the rest as links. On the other hand, if one were to include a couple more languages, the table would not fit in the screen anymore. Vietnamese alone. Also the table does not show the collating order. So I propose a different organization:
- (1) a table with one row for each language, that lists the alphabet in collating order, without vertical alignment:
- Latin: A Æ, B, C, ...
- Pinyin:A Á À &Abrevis; &Acaron; ...
- (2) a separate table for each base Latin letter, showing all modifications of that letter used in various languages. These tables would be formatted like the present ones, with one row per language and one column per modified form.
What do you think?
Jorge Stolfi 17:28, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
So, any opinions on this proposal?
Jorge Stolfi 19:20, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
- I'd be inclined to say that collating order can go in the "XYZ alphabet" article which is linked from the bottom. -- pne 06:08, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
Ñ in Welsh?!
I've never seen the use of an N-tilde, rather than the digraph Ng (and it's a different phoneme, it's an eng like in thing, not an enye like in canyon. I'm removing it for now, but feel free to prove me wrong, if you have a reference to back you up ;o) — OwenBlacker 20:40, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)
- I agree with you -- it doesn't exist in Welsh. -- Arwel 21:39, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- While we're on the subject of Welsh, Ŵ and Ŷ are not actually separate letters so shouldn't be in the bottom table. Also, the note is wrong -- acute, grave, circumflex and diaeresis accents are used in Welsh on all 7 vowels. See this handy guide (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=welsh+diacritics&hl=cy&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=35d8b6b4.955440%40news.portal.ca&rnum=1). Gareth 15:44, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Ü in French
I have added Ü to the list of French variants. It is extremely rare, being used primarily in names such as Esaü or Saül, but it does exist. Kelisi 18:31, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)