Talk:11 March 2004 Madrid attacks/Archive1

Article name

The following comes from when the page was named The Madrid Blast

How can it be the Madrid blast when there were multiple explosions? Evercat 14:23, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I would suggest Madrid bombings of March 11, 2004 myself... Evercat 14:25, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

How can the article start with "the madrid blast was...". Is Wikipedia in the business of naming things now? Please an admin rename the article as per Evercat's suggestion. Miguel 14:29, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Well anyone can move the page. Evercat 14:32, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Done. I've followed the same format as for September 11, 2001 attacks - I suspect that this will be seen as Spain's 9/11, so it seems doubly appropriate. -- ChrisO 14:41, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes... unfortunately this is the Spanish 9/11. Sabbut 15:18, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If you are referring to using the event for political advantage and suppression of civil liberties, I'm sure it will be. Miguel 17:32, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

I named the article "the madrid blast" because I couldn't get the right translation from swedish "bombattentatet i madrid"; perhaps i should used "the bomb attentate in madrid"; compare Lockerbie bombing. Anyway, you seems to have got a title for it now. // Rogper 16:15, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

We managed it in the end. Perhaps you could rename Bombattentatet i Madrid to whatever the Swedish is for "March 11, 2004 Madrid attacks"? -- ChrisO 18:01, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Number of bombs

I'm not sure there were just 3 bombs, ie see [1] (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1126951,00.html) which says 13 bombs (and I've heard 3 successfully defused?) Evercat 14:48, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think it's 16 bombs: 13 plus the 3 that were defused... Sabbut 14:50, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No, the Spanish interior minister Angel Acibes has said there were 10 explosions plus 3 bombs defused. [2] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3502218.stm) -- ChrisO 15:05, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK... just my confusion Sabbut

I heard about an additional bomb at the head of the Atocha train with more explosives that all 13 others combined, which did not explode. I don't know if I believe that. Miguel 15:11, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Previous attempted attacks

BTW... ten days ago (March 1) the Guardia Civil stopped a van that was carrying over 500 kg of explosives for an ETA attack in Madrid. This could be relevant. Sabbut 14:59, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

A similar interception happened in 1999. Miguel 17:34, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Worth mentioning. BTW, where does the 186 figure come from? I'm still hearing 173. Evercat 15:00, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

check [3] (http://www.elpais.es) that quotes indeterminate official sources eiaccb 15:07, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

El Pais is (unfortunately) not free, check La Vanguardia (http://www.lavanguardia.es/web/20040311/51152856332.html)

Also, phone calls from relatives in Madrid relaying radio reports Miguel 15:10, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Wikifrenzy

Just a reminder to the many people working on this article today. Because lots of people are working on it, be very careful not to trip over everyone else's edits. Make sure nothing gets removed from revision to revision. :) RadicalBender 15:03, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hey, please refrain form wikifying and spell checking while people are trying to add facts. Thanks. Miguel 15:08, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

It helps to avoid edit conflicts if you edit only a section at a time. Miguel 19:33, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

It's a bona fide Wikifrenzy... -- ChrisO 15:08, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I got 9 edit conflicts in a row, and the ninth added the info I was going to add ... In the end all I did was to correct "could" into "couldn't". -- J-V Heiskanen 15:25, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Someone removed the ext. links... presumably intentional but I don't know why... Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 15:11, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Probably accidental - they should be restored with headlines given this time. -- ChrisO 15:15, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks from Spain

To (in my name but I think in many others') to all those who support the victims by writing about this terrorist attack. Information is our way to peace. Pfortuny 15:12, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Amen. (and this is coming from a non-believer) -- J-V Heiskanen 15:29, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

My sympathies to you and your compatriots. Do you live in Madrid? -- ChrisO 15:14, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No. But it is being undescribable. Pfortuny 15:16, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I do. Well, I work there, but live some 20 km north. My parents live not too far from Atocha (a 15-minute walk) an I lived there in my youth. eiaccb 15:37, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

My family lives in Madrid, I was born and raised there. A military officer was once shot in the head by ETA a few block away from my home. Miguel 17:25, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, the closest I have been to a terrorist act was in the Basque Country (where my in-laws are from) and a bomb went off in the middle of the night in the very same building we were sleeping, three stories below us, at a bank office. eiaccb 17:47, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

About one half of the actions of ETA happen in the Basque country. Miguel 18:10, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

I live about 25 km away from Madrid. Today I didn't have class because of the teachers' strike, so I stayed at home. I have to admit it, it was scary, even 25 km away. Sabbut 18:23, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Many university students use cercanias to commute to school. It it hadn't been for the strike, there would have been a substantially larger number of people on each train.

Was this just a lucky coincidence, or is this "lucky timing" ETA's substitute for a bomb warning?

— Miguel 18:30, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

The date of the attacks was chosen because of the legislative elections on March 14. I don't know much about the strike, but maybe it was chosen as a means to protest against the Madrid government. Maybe September 11, exactly two years and a half ago had something to do. In any case, it could have been even worse. Sabbut 19:56, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Calle Téllez

The BBC is reporting that four bombs exploded on the street outside Atocha (presumably this is Calle Téllez); the article says that they exploded on a train on Calle Téllez. Which is correct? -- ChrisO 15:17, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Train by Calle Téllez. which is near Atocha Station. Pfortuny 15:20, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Both are correct: it exploded in a train on Calle Téllez, which is next to Atocha. Sabbut 15:20, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

My sympathies to Pfortuny and other Spanish friends. The article is moving too fast for me to edit, but the correct format for the election reference Spanish legislative election, 2004. Adam 15:22, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Shoudln't it be Téllez street, why not translate calle? 80.224.97.143 17:24, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

We don't generally translate non-English street names. See, for instance, Rue de Rivoli or Unter den Linden. -- ChrisO 18:46, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Tactics

This is just not true. Miguel 15:23, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Should the attacks turn out to be the responsibility of the Basque separatist group it would mark a distinct change in the organisations tactics. Historically their attacks have been against smaller groups or specific individuals and often preceded by a warning.

Sorry. I just regurgiated what BBC and Sky are reporting. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 15:24, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What's wrong with the paragraph? Which part isn't true? Evercat 15:25, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Smaller groups, well, this is their largest, but they have killed in supermarkets. They did produce less casualties bc they warned. The warning is true.

They have used booby traps in the past, and car bombs without warnings when they strike security targets. Miguel 15:30, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Well, can we say it would be a marked escalation in the size of their attacks? I mean, I think we should get across that this is an unprecidented ETA attack (if an ETA attack it is). Evercat 15:29, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No, only in the scale of successful attacks. Several car-bombs with hundreds of kilos of TNT have been intercepted on their way to Madrid in the last few years. The largest one was 1,500 kg, scheduled to detonate at 8 pm on some unspecified day during the Christmas holidays. Miguel 15:32, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

But have there ever been 13 at once? Evercat 15:34, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It is their standard operating procedure to have several delayed bombs set to explode on rescue workers. Miguel 15:35, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

But Miguel, they put them usually around a place, not three or four different locations at the same time. But I may be wrong, this is only my recollection. Pfortuny 15:41, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That is true, but this is an attack on three consecutive trains on the same line of cercanias, plus the central station. It is an attack on a single target, the commuter rail system. At one train every 20 minutes, this requires less than one hour of coordination and only four people, much less than is presumed in some of the spectacular Al Qaeda atacks. Miguel 17:38, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Yes, that's OK for me. Pfortuny 15:31, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've added the following:

Although ETA has a history of mounting bomb attacks in Madrid and has also attempted to attack trains, the March 11 attacks were on a scale far exceeding anything ever previously accomplished by a European terrorist group, leading some to suggest that the terrorists' tactics were more typical of Islamic fundamentalists.

This attack is different: not just the lack of warning but the massive coordinated nature of it. It reminds me very much of the Istanbul bombings earlier this year. -- ChrisO 15:34, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is not "massive coordination". It's not like they hijacked frour trains: it is two guy coming on and off four trains within 10 minutes at a single station, according to La Vanguardia. One could say that ETA did the planing and cercanias did the coordination. Miguel 18:12, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Exploding bombs actually isn't very easy; there is a lot that can go wrong and it requires a lot of technical skill. Exploding ten bombs in four separate locations within just four minutes is technically a very difficult feat, and very few terrorist organisations are capable of that level of expertise. I don't think ETA has ever shown that sort of expertise before, though the IRA has (and there are known to have been contacts between the two). But this kind of attack is much more the hallmark of al-Qaida. -- ChrisO 20:38, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I actually first thought of them rather than ETA. It is much above their style. But now they are desperate. Anyway, the Spanish Gov't is saying it is ETA. Pfortuny 15:36, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's not outside the realm of possibility that they were "inspired" by Al Qaeda tactics in planning this thing. Miguel 15:39, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

There is a common perception of the ETA as the group which specifically targeted Spanish politicians and generals which is apparently not true in recent years. Someone should update the tactics section of the ETA article. Rmhermen 15:38, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)

First it was Franco's regime, then it was the police and military, then ordinary people because the security forces improved their security. Since 1990 they have attacked targets of opportunity. They have bombed supermarkets, they have placed booby-trapped wallets on tourist beaches. Then they decided to go after city council people in the basque country, and in 1995 they car-bombed our current president. This is the first of a long series of flashy attempts that has succeeded, but they could have killed thousands in Christmas of 1999 (I think), it is suspected that they wanted to bomb the underground parking lot of the largest departemet store in Madrid. Oh, and half the people they have killed were in the basque country. Miguel 15:47, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

There is something funny about the terrorists leaving a van parked in one of the stations with seven detonators, koranic verses and tapes in arabic. It almost seems like planted evidence.

Compare this to ETA's standard operating procedure, which includes two stolen vehicles, one used in the actual action and another one used to run away. The vehicle used in the action is driven to a meeting point with the other vehicle, loaded with explosives and left behind to explode at a later time. Sometimes a warning is given ant it is the police that explodes the vehicle under controlled conditions. ETA would never leave a vehicle behind with evidence like this.

— Miguel 02:37, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

Timeline

FWIW see this timeline (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2004/03/11/espana/1079010638.html) if it is of interest. Pfortuny 15:33, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Main page

Why is this event not on the main page already, BTW? Miguel 15:33, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC) +

It is. Evercat 15:34, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Terrorists POV?

So, how exactly is describing the people who committed these murders as terrorists POV in an unreasonable sense? I really would like to know how else to describe ETA or Al Qaida, the two groups in the frame for this at the moment. They murder civilians, they do not go after military targets. They are terrorists, they are not freedom fighters, and to merely describe ETA as separatists is to disparage those separatists who go about things within the law. David Newton 15:56, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Call them organized crime if you think that's more neutral. Miguel 17:41, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

People who are able to negotiate where they are going not to kill look very much like terrorists. This is what they did two months ago with a Catalonian politician. Pfortuny 15:58, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This was discussed at length in Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks. I recommend that you read that discussion. -- ChrisO 16:06, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I did then. No problem, the above was just a rant. Pfortuny 16:08, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Al-Qaida connection?

Others, including ETA supporters, have suggested that al-Qaida was involved, possibly in response to Spain's support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq, although the kind of explosives used is consistent with ETA involvement.

Has anyone other than Batasuna suggested it might be someone other than ETA? Pete/Pcb21 (talk)

No, the Minister of Interior Affairs has said that is a "smoke curtain" on their side. Pfortuny 16:10, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Our article is badly phrased, then? Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 16:16, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The Spanish govt. has said that it's not ruling out any possibilities. See Reuter's at http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L1135150.htm . -- ChrisO 16:17, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 16:20, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the idea is we have to convince the people right now that it is ETA bc ETA is one of the main problems in Spain. Although we cannot rule out any other possibility, obviously. Pfortuny 16:22, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I find it funny that anyone in Spain would first think of Al Qaeda. I understand that of anglo-saxon media, but not of anyone in Spain who does not have a vested interest in protecting ETA. Miguel 17:42, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

But there is at least a very plausible motive for possible Al Qaeda involvement -- and if so then it is worrying for us in the UK, which was (for some stupid reason) even more enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq invasion. But whoever did it, I hope justice catches up with them, and does so quickly. This vicious attack was wholly unacceptable. Madrileños - nosotros ingleses no les olvidaramos a ustedes. --Trainspotter 20:53, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC) (P.S. sorry, my login ID really isn't meant to cause offence in this context; it was created long before this all happened)

All I was arguing is that the knee-jerk reaction of any Spaniard would be to blame ETA. Once evidence starts coming in pointing to the contrary, that's a different story. Now I think only the government holds on to the ETA hypothesis. Miguel 22:12, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

Why do we have to convince people of anything? We're just reporting what has been said, after all. -- ChrisO 16:27, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"We" is the Spanish Gov't, not us. Sorry for my English.Pfortuny 16:29, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC) (I was speaking of their thought, not what has to be said). Pfortuny 16:30, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I did a re-wording. I hope I am accurately reflecting the situation as reported by your news. I am sure I will be reverted quickly if not! Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 16:31, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

(indentation backwards). It is OK for me (it is very new news and info is scant on the subject). Thx. Pfortuny 16:34, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

World reaction

Is it worth adding the worldwide condemnation of this attack? A list of people who have spoken can be found at http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-03-11-spain-world-reax_x.htm. Perhaps not that important? Side-note: Jack Straw used the phrase "shoulder to shoulder", Blair said the same to Bush on 9/11, some press picking up on this, and sure is not a co-incidence Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 16:20, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think so. We should start giving this article sections. Responsibility, or some such verbage should be in its own section (as it will grow larger over time as an investigation proceeds) and World Reaction should be given its own section as well. RadicalBender 16:32, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Done. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 16:58, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

More on Calle Téllez explosion

I've removed this from the article:

It was also loaded with two larger bombs, at the head and center of the train, which, according to experts, were designed to bring down the entire station.

There's a Reuters image of the train destroyed at Calle Téllez here [4] (http://images.thisislondon.co.uk/v2/galleries/news/madridblast/trainmadridR_350x250.jpg). The damage shown to the train is severe, but it is localised: it would certainly not have brought down the station. If you look carefully you can see that the electric pylons are still largely intact, as are the end carriages of the train on the right of the image. It would have needed a much bigger explosion to have destroyed the entire station, and such a large explosion would certainly have destroyed the entire train. The station could have been destroyed if attacked directly (e.g. by destroying the ceiling supports) but this clearly didn't happen. -- ChrisO 17:45, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is the original source: (La Vanguardia) (http://www.lavanguardia.es/web/20040311/51152856332.html)

It talks about two *unexploded* bombs, and mentions the fact that the train did not explode in the station because it was delayed by a few minutes. Miguel 17:49, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Los terroristas pretendían hacer coincidir la explosión de los artefactos colocados en dos de los trenes a su llegada a la estación de Atocha, lo que hubiera provocado la voladura de este recinto. En el tren que explosionó en la calle Téllez, a un kilómetro de la estación, había al menos otras dos bombas, situadas en el centro y en la cola del convoy. Este tren habría coincidido en su llegada a la estación con el anterior de no haber sido por los dos minutos de retraso que llevaba. Las fuentes consultadas señalaron que, de haber hecho explosión ambos trenes en el mismo lugar, el efecto multiplicador de los explosivos y las características arquitectónicas de la estación habrían causado su derrumbe, provocando aún más víctimas mortales.

The three unexploded bombs are reported to have been located in cars, not trains (presumably parked outside the station, with the intention of catching the emergency services) - see http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1496713,00.html . -- ChrisO 17:54, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You are referring to the booby-traps for rescue workers. The article refers to additional bombs on the Tellez train to replicate the structure of the Atocha train explosion (head, center and rear). Miguel 18:17, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

Times

How do we specify the times so that users around the world understand? What I mean is, obviously, we use local time, but since Spain is in the same time zone as UTC, do we make a note of that? Like "7:56 a.m. local time (UTC)"?

I'm probably overthinking this. Is it even important to indicate which time zone Spain is in? (Probably not so much for Europeans, but us Americans never remember which countries are in which time zones.) RadicalBender 18:57, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Spain is not UTC; it's UTC+1 if I remember correctly (same as France), except the Canary Islands which are UTC. Montrealais

Well, I checked the time zone article and they say Spain is UTC (although, they do honor DST). RadicalBender 19:23, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Continental Spain (like France) is CET, that amounts to UTC+1 during the winter and UTC+2 when daylight saving kick in. eiaccb 19:24, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Montrealais is correct. The map at Time zone (check the larger image) puts Portugal in UTC, but Spain (mainland) in UTC+1. -- Toby Bartels 19:25, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Interesting, you learn something new every day. Regardless, can we add UTC+1 to the times (or at least the first one) somewhere then? RadicalBender 19:51, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Done. -- ChrisO 20:28, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, UTC is Greenwich Mean Time (well, without the confusing forward-one-hour in the summer aspect of it), which is an hour behind continental Europe. Moncrief, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

To be precise, you signed at 19:51 UTC and my clock says 20:51, and I am in mainland Spain. :) Pfortuny 19:55, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Possible source

Include information from http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/8162057.htm? --Daniel C. Boyer 20:27, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

worst terrorist attacks ever?

Around September 15th, 1999, bombings of tenements in Moscow and other cities took a death toll of about 300. One might rate these as the worst terrorist attacks in Europe. It doesn't have to be the worst to be bad, so maybe one should take back this phrase without losing anything.

It was Spain's worst ever terrorist attack, far surpassing the second-worst (a bombing carried out by the Basque terrorist group ETA on a supermarket belonging to the Hipercor chain in Barcelona in 1987, which killed 21 and wounded 40).

I do have a problem with this sentence.

the word terrorist reflects one point of view towards the ETA (or whoever who did this). Actually, I consider both ETA and al-qaeda as terrorist groups but this does not make this word acceptable. It's okay to say that spanish media, spanish politicians call this as the worst ever terrorist attac. However,
what about the Guernica bombing by German legion condor? This can be seen as a terrorist attac (no matter that they were backed by a (terrorist) state. Over 1500 people died during this Guernica bombing so I can't see why today's tragedy is the worst terrorist attac in Spain ever.

Guernica happened in the context of a war (it was an action carried out by military forces, and arguably constituted a war crime), whereas the Madrid attacks were carried armed civilians in peacetime. The two events are not comparable. -- ChrisO 17:45, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm not a native speaker, so is there anyone who might propose a more NPOV like sentence? -- Presroi 17:26, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Call them an "armed group" instead of "terrorist group" if you need to.

This is the worst *attack* of any nature during peacetime.

This is probably all that needs to be said. For most people, any attack during peacetime will be considered terrorism, so they get the idea; but apologists that don't want to call this terrorism can't dispute this statement either. (The essence of NPOV ^_^!) -- Toby Bartels 19:18, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Was Lockerbie a terrorist attack?

Does Tarzan shit in the jungle?

The point being, if you can't call the medrid bombings a terrorist attakc, why can you call Lockerbie a terrorist attack. And, of course, Tarzan does not shit, he fertilizes. Miguel 04:04, 2004 Mar 13 (UTC)

The bombing of Gernika is a war crime, not terrorism. It does not even qualify as state terrorism because it happened in war time.

What, there's some law of nature that it's impossible to instill people with fear (to terrorise them) in the middle of a war? -- Toby Bartels 19:18, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There is a phenomenon called "terrorism" which can happen at any time, and there's the crime of "terrorism" which has a very specific legal meaning. If an act of terrorism takes place in wartime, it's treated as a crime against humanity or a violation of the laws of war. (This is what happened with the Yugoslav atrocities.) If it happens in peacetime, it's treated as a "ordinary" crimanal offence. However, it's generally not very useful to label war crimes as "terrorism" as this confuses the issue with peacetime terrorism, which isn't generally considered a war crime. -- ChrisO 20:34, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Miguel 17:46, 2004 Mar 11 (UTC)

I've put in the following weasel words:

Observers typically classify the attacks as an act of terrorism.

If this "typically" language is disputed, then we would have to be more specific. But I doubt that it is disputed; maybe if ETA claims responsibility, then they'll also claim that it's not terrorism, but for now probably nearly every commentator agrees. -- Toby Bartels 19:30, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that it is better to be silent than to use weasel words. I'd rather take them away than have that sentence in any article. Pfortuny 19:49, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hear, hear. Unless the word "terrorism" has been totally banned from Wikipedia (which wouldn't surprise me), it belongs in this article, without weaseling. Adam 01:15, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

ETA is not (yet) classified as a terrorist group in the world, besides in the US. Please keep that in mind, how strange it may sound. There is a swedish, german and french word "attentat" (from latin attentatum) which has no real similarity in english; its translated to "unlawful action" or "(attempted) assassination" or "attack" into english. This act, whetever it is an terrorist act or not, is certainly a "Bomb-attentatum". // Rogper 03:46, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually, just to be clear, the EU classified the ETA as a terrorist organization as well. (Not making a judgment either way, though.) RadicalBender 03:51, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It would also be a terrorist act even if it turns out the Red Cross is behind it. - Nunh-huh 03:54, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Could we please conduct debates here, at the foot of the page, so others can find them? Adam 04:09, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Don't misunderstand me as trying to say ETA is legatimated, please. However, there is a different with "separatist" and "terrorist". Anyway, RadicalBender claimed EU has graded ETA to terrorist organisation, so that makes period. Attentatium or "attentate" would be an alternative word for terror act. To be honesty, I don't think (al-Qaida) terror acts in Europe will results in "terror"; instead, it will only justify political leaders to take out revenge to kill people in the middle east or wherever. Just my cents. // Rogper 05:28, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Which just goes to show that no matter how disgusting any particular act of terrorism, there will always be someone willing to make excuses for it. Adam 05:32, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Just another rant from Spain... what is a peace-time attack? If it is not terrorist then you might as well assume that ETA and/or Al-Qaida think are in war against Spain (which ETA claims and Al-Qaida does also), so ... are we in peace? I fear we are losing the sense of proportion regarding the terror word. It has become a real taboo. I thought we had overcome them, but maybe we have simply changed ones for others. Pfortuny 08:21, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't know if Spain has been declared as being in war, but note that a country in war doesn't normally obey normally laws and that some insurance might not be payed back. // Rogper 20:15, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Political implications

From the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51736-2004Mar11.html):

The Aznar government's support for the Iraq war was deeply unpopular among citizens, with polls indicating that 90 percent of the population was against it. Spain's involvement in Iraq had become a campaign issue, with the opposition Socialist Party promising to reverse the policy and bring troops home.

While Spain's close ties to the Bush administration over Iraq have received little approval, its stance against ETA has been highly popular. The candidate of the governing Popular Party, Mariano Rajoy, has promised to continue the policy pursued by Aznar, who is stepping down after eight years in power. Rajoy's campaign had tacitly accused his Socialist challenger, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, of being softer on terrorism.

I don't know whether )or where) this belongs in the article, but I personally agree with this analysis. Interestingly, I haven't found such a clear statement of this in the Spanish commentary, let alone news coverage. Miguel 04:54, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

I have expanded the articles on Rajoy and R Zapatero and have mentioned this aspect in both articles. I don't think politics belong in this article. They can be discussed at Spanish legislative election, 2004. Adam 05:04, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

911 days after 9/11

Both this article and March 9, 2004 attack on restaurant frequented by freemasons claim to be 911 days after 9/11. One of them must be incorrect. ANyone good at counting. Rmhermen 13:52, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

See Talk:Current events (at least I think it was there where all the different ways of counting days (i.e. including or excluding each of the end dates) can be used to wedge 911 into either story. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 14:21, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Both are incorrect 03.11.2004-9.11.2001 = 912 days. RobertMichel 23:18, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

911 days between 911 and 11M. [anonymous]

So what? I think numerologie is Demagogue! Yesterday it was only an Internet Hoax but today I'm shocked that the news agency Agence France-Presse published this hoax without calculating themself. Today many mass medias reports it was exaclty 911 days after Nine Eleven - this is worng and a Hoax. See news.google (911 days) (http://news.google.de/news?hl=en&edition=en&scoring=d&q=911+days&btnG=Search+News|) with1280 hits! What do you think to place a text like I did in the German version into the article:RobertMichel 20:07, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hoax: 911 days after September 9th 2001

In the internet but also the news agencie Agence_France-Presse is spreading a hoax that the mach 11th 2004 would have been 911 days after the September_11,_2001_attacks. This is worng. 2004 is a Leap_year so the March 11th 2004 has been 912 days after the WTC attacks.

What do you think? RobertMichel 20:07, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I feared that Hoax will be edited into error, error into claim and latly claim into proof. Why does I put the wrong number game of AFP into this artikel? I want to stress that all mysterious number games are demagogue and more hoax than proofs. It would be totaly different when it is proof that both attacks are from the same group and it claims it used 911 days inbetween this dates to have a more mystic media report. Everythink else is like reading in coffee-grounds. I don`t what to read in coffe-grounds, I want to stress that this is not poof, nor a claim. So please leave it as hoax or remove it. AFAIK is Wikipedia not for speculations. RobertMichel 23:30, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

We reckoned on that talk page that this attack was 912 days after, and the freemason attack 910... Evercat 17:25, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

On the other hand, 3/11/04 is two and a half years after 9/11/01. Maybe just coincidence...I certainly wouldn't suggest that terrorist attacks will only occur on the 11th of the month. }:-( Lee M 20:09, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hoax: something intended to deceive; deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage -- THIS IS NOT A HOAX, JUST AN ERROR --Cantus 00:14, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

TNT?

What is the source for the TNT information? AFAIK is it unknown which expolsive was used.rob

It is not titadine see here (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2004/03/12/espana/1079109745.html). (Spanish) Pfortuny 17:56, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Picture and GNU-FDL

What is the source and licenze of these pictures? Sorry, but this photo are only a Copy&Paste one and not one to use with GNU/FDL. Please try to find a free photo, for example of demonstrations against terrorism/barbarismus of today. rob

Is it possible to resize this picture for insertion in the demonstrations section? Miguel 18:45, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

Just use the Extended Image Syntax. RadicalBender 20:19, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I uploaded the following smaller version

Pfortuny 20:10, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It seems that 11-M will became populare like 9-11. Who made this sticker? The goverment (PP) called for the demonstration, 2 days bevor the election, so I fear that it could be a political election campain - to remove my doubts please write more about this sticker. My intention was to have pictures of protesting people, I can only serve a picture from a 90 people (mostly spanisch ersamus-stutends) demonstation in here in Aachen. BTW i guess this 90 people are to view to mention in the article. -- rob

I don't know who made this sticker, but it has been circulated on the internet (I got it by email) for people to print and bring along to demonstrations.

It has become customary for people to demonstrate immediately after a terrorist attack (as happened on March 11). Politicians have jumped on the bandwagon and now at every demonstration the government takes part in it, along with all political party leaders, unions, NGOs, what have you. This is strictly non-partisan (although sometimes there is partisan bickering on the mottos and separate demonstrations are held) and it should not be considered suspicious that the government took part in the organization of the demonstrations. If you look at this picture (http://estaticos.elmundo.es/fotografia/2004/03/atentados/imagenes/manifestaciones05.jpg) you'll see from left to right the interior minister, opposition leader, out-going president, prince, and two prncesses. The opposition leader and president could not be using this for political purposes and showing up side by side. Miguel 23:26, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

Look out for ETA

For Miguel especially. here (http:www.elmundo.es) they say ETA denies authorship. Pfortuny 17:53, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have been culling stuff from La Vanguardia, maybe it's time to start digging from El Mundo. — Miguel 18:21, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

Please view my little article about the basque neswpaper de:Gara - Arne List 19:35, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I translated it to English: en:Gara. Miguel 22:31, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

Gracias :-) -- Arne List 23:09, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Alcala de Henares

Alcala de Henares is East of Madrid, and the commuter rail line that was bombed starts there and describes an arc entering Madrid from the southeast. Miguel 18:40, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

Gracias. The edit that I made is good then. Or, if you want, you can replace the north I took out with "east," but I don't think it's necessary, since the location of A.d.H. is mentioned previously. Moncrief, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Football

The UEFA refused to allow Spanish football teams to suspend their matches scheduled for 11 and 12 March, and the teams are complying with this decision.

Is this correct? It was reported before the matches here (in the UK) that the games were continuing as scheduled at the insistence of the Spanish Government, who did not wish to allow the terrorists to be seen to have succeeded in disrupting normal events. -- Arwel 19:06, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Football Club Barcelona asked for their match on March 11 to be delayed but it was not allowed (source here for example (http://www.lavanguardia.es/web/20040312/51152879743.html). However, the Spanish Gv't has insisted on normality. Pfortuny 20:03, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As far as I understand it from my poor Spanish and the machine translation, the decision was jointly made by UEFA, the Spanish Government, and the (Spanish?) Football Federation, so as it is at the moment the article reads as rather too critical of UEFA. -- Arwel 21:17, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I wrote it in a rush. Would you mind fixing it? Thanks. Pfortuny 21:19, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Done. Arwel 21:48, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

How many bombs?

There seems to be a problem with the tally of bombs.

By my count, this article mentions:

3 bombs that exploded on the Atocha train
4 bombs that exploded on the Tellez train
2 bombs that did not explode on the Tellez train
2 bombs that exploded on the El Pozo train
1 bomb that exploded on the Sta Eugenia train
2 bombs that did not explode in cars outside Atocha
1 bomb that did not explode in a car outside El Pozo

For a total of 15 bombs, of which 3 did not explode. Of those, 11 bombs targeted Atocha station (the Atocha train, the Tellez train, and the car bombs). 9 of these were on trains, of which 7 exploded.

However, the article says there were 13 bombs, and that 6 targeted Atocha station. What am I missing? Montrealais

Maybe you can check the timeline at El Mundo (see external links) and fix this. I have been noticing the inconsistencies, too. Miguel 20:05, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

Only 3 explosions at Tellez. I'll try to fix it. From El mundo. Pfortuny 20:13, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

(My public apologies for the mess-up with this page, especially to RadicalBender... Pfortuny 20:29, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's not a problem. Just trying to direct traffic on this page is all. :-) RadicalBender 20:31, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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