Talk:0 (number)

Contents

1 Older comments 2 The Zeroeth Symphony 3 Zero in Mathematics 4 0 (number) or 0 5 Distinguishing zero from O 6 Paragraph temporarily removed from History section 7 Cleanin gup, merging

Older comments

The comment that modern languages use zero-indexing is somewhat misleading, because it isn't because of technical merits, but because of the popularity of C. It's no problem for the compiler to convert the one-indexing preferred by humans (or indeed most any indexing) to the zero-indexing used in the machine code. However, since C used zero-indexing and became so popular, most programmers are used to it. That's probably the reason it's used in most later languages.

"The year zero does not exist. Instead there is a "zero point" in time between the years [1 B.C.]? and 1."

What?

Yes, I think we should remove this rather obscure interpretation until someone can provided an authoritative justification for it. - MMGB

But it is correct that in our current system of timekeeping, the year following 1 B.C. was 1 C.E., isn't it? --AxelBoldt

Yes. The reasoning about a zero point is incorrect, though. The reason there is no zero year is that, as I'm sure Axel can confirm, zero hadn't been invented yet when this calendar system was made. The way I prefer to think of it is using the same logic as call 19XX "the twentieth century". We are simply in the 2001st year.--BlackGriffen

I'm not sure whether zero had been invented yet, since I don't know when people started to use the BC/CE method of labeling years. Anybody? --AxelBoldt

BCE CE didn't come in to use until the 20th century (might have been used earlier, but it seems to be an invention of political correctness). Let's see:

" The Gregorian calendar is the one commonly used today. It was proposed by Aloysius Lilius, a physician from Naples, and adopted by Pope Gregory XIII in accordance with instructions from the Council of Trent (1545-1563) to correct for errors in the older Julian Calendar. It was decreed by Pope Gregory XIII in a papal bull in February 1582." from http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7671/gregory.htm

Not really authoratative, but it seems accurate enough. I thought that the calendar had been proposed earlier, in which case there would be no ambiguity. Had the Europeans learned of zero and the arabic number system by then?--BlackGriffen

No, thats the calendar. The system of chronology (the numbering of years) is separate from the calendar. Our current system of chronology dates back to Dionysius Exiguus (or however you spell him), c. 500 CE. Back then, awareness of the number zero was rather lacking, since people used Roman numerals, which lack a symbol for zero. By 1582 CE, by contrast, the number zero was well established (people increasingly used Hindu-Arabic numberals), but as I said, thats the calendar, not the system of chronology. -- SJK

This is not the case. There is no year 0 not because 0 hadn't been invented, but because years are ordinal numbers, not cardinal ones. The year 1 was the first year of the C.E. Year 2 was the second, 1999 was the 1,999th, etc. Year 2 BCE was the second-last year BCE, year 1 was the last, etc.

For support, we may turn to the French Revolutionary Calendar. Did they call their first year 0? Of course not; they called it 1. (Well, I.) And this was well after the invention of 0.

There's no year 0 for the same reason there's no 0th of January or 0th month. Anyway, Cecil Adams of the Straight Dope did a brilliant exposé on the whole mess more than ten years ago - it may be available at [1] (http://www.straightdope.com).- montréalais

The Zeroeth Symphony

I don't want to step on the toes of the learned Wikipedians working on WikiProject Numbers, but I want to bring to their attention a little tidbit on the number zero: while the ordinal zeroeth is rarely used, there is one instance of it in classical music. The composer Anton Bruckner regarded his early Symphony in D minor to be unworthy of including in the canon of his works, and he wrote 'gilt nicht' on the score and a circle with a crossbar, intending it to mean "invalid". But posthumously, this work came about to be known as Symphony No. 0 in D minor, even though it was actually written after Symphony No. 1 in C minor. There's an even earlier Symphony in F minor of Bruckner's that is sometimes called No. 00. Del arte 21:56, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Very interesting. I've added this to zeroth. 4pq1injbok 03:52, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Someone needs to clarify here or in null about the computer defintion of zero as not being "empty" or "void" like null is. In computer terms, if I am not mistaken 0+x=x while null+x=null. Right?

Zero in Mathematics

I don't like the comment that "x/0 is also the definition for infinity". This requires thinking of infinity as a number, which generally isn't done because it makes arithmetic messy (what is 0×∞? what is ∞+∞?) Having said that, ∞ is viewed as a number in the Extended complex plane. In any case it doesn't seem to make sense that this is the "definition" for infinity. There are different definitions for infinity in Mathematics used for different purposes, and each must be defined very carefully.

0 (number) or 0

How does 0 get to re-direct here?? For all other numbers, the numeral without the (number) suffix is for the year. 66.245.87.127 01:04, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I suspect that the redirect was made by someone who thought that there was no year zero, which is true only in the modern Western calendar. Both astronomical years and Hindu years have a year zero. I propose that the current article '0 (year)' be renamed (moved) to '0' so that the unmodified number refers to the year as all other bare numbers do in accordance with the Manual of Style: "A page title that is just a number is always a year." It would still not be an entry in the Wikipedia timeline. Of course, the current redirects as well as the disambiguations at the top of both articles and zero (disambiguation) would be changed accordingly (they are either wrong or somewhat lacking at the moment). Joe Kress 19:03, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

Distinguishing zero from O

In paper writing one may not distinguish the 0 and O at all, or may add a slash across it in order to show the difference, although this sometimes causes ambiguity in regard to the symbol for the Null Set.

"Null Set" should either be Null set (no capital S for "set") or empty set. I think it should be empty set, considering the information on notation on that page, and the absence of any information on null set. Brianjd

Someone changed the article to say that letter O is more rectangular than digit 0. In the default font used by wikipedia this is not true on my screen. For me digit 0 has straights on four sides and rounded corners, while capital O is more oval shaped. How about your screens? −Woodstone 18:11, 2005 May 28 (UTC)

The only place I can recall seeing "more rectangular" letter Os is on license plates. It seems we have several ways that have been used to distinguish the characters, including "ovalness" (elliptical eccentricity?) "squareness" and slashing. I've also seen fonts where the zero has a dot in the middle. --Yath 23:30, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Paragraph temporarily removed from History section

I have removed the following from the History section (it followed the sentence on Indian mathematicians year 300):

The earliest documented independent use of zero as a numeral is attributed to them. However, though this concept of the zero is documented as a contribution of ancient Indian thought, it is recognizably ludicrous for us to suppose that ancient Egyptian mathematics could have become as advanced as it was (see also Moscow and Rhind Mathematical Papyri and golden ratio [see Corinna Rossi, Architecture and Mathematics in Ancient Egypt, Cambridge University Press, 2004, pp. 23-56]) without such an idea of "nothingness."

The reason is that I'm unsure what is meant here. "Independent use" suggests (to me) use as a number (as in "zero brothers"), but immediately following that comes as a numeral, i.e. digit (as in "101 brothers", or more likely, "101 cousins"). The sentence preceding this deleted paragraph also seems to deal with the numral zero. The lines on Egyptian mathematics and Papyrus Rhind - a recent addition - seems to deal with the number.

Another thing that is unclear to me is what the golden section's got to do with it.

It would please me if someone could clarify these issues and reinsert the paragraph.--Niels Ø 02:12, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)

First sentence in the paragraph stated: "The earliest known decimal digit zero is documented as having been introduced by Indian mathematicians about 300." "Independent use" was interpreted as referring to "use as a decimal place holder." Perhaps the paragraph was intially awkward to begin with. At any rate, referring to Timeline of mathematics and Egyptian mathematics, it is obsurd to believe that nearly 5000 years ago, ancient Egyptians were able to calculate π as 4×(8/9)² (or 3.160493...), with an error of slightly over 0.63 percent, and then suddenly hit an "intellectual wall" and totally stagnate intellectually for nearly 2 millennia afterward (before finally succumbing to the conquests of outside tribal warriors) without ever even contemplating this notion of "nothingness." Golden ratio is another such number including "0" as a decimal place holder. (But also is it certainly fascinating to note an ancient Egyptian knowledge -- many millennia ago -- of this number's existence!) Psychologically and mathematically, are we to really believe that in those 2 millennia no one single Egyptian mathematician ever thought about representing "nothingness" somehow? Speaking in the Science of Psychology now, History records only a few hundred years requisite for ancient Greek mathematicians to progress to some notion of "zero" concurrent with their ideological development of similar mathematical ideas. If it took the Greeks only a few hundred years, why would it take Egypt several millennia, facing the fact that the Greeks studied mathematics in Egypt? Please refer to the following quote:

"...there must have been much more to Egyptian mathematics. We know that Thales, Pythagoras and others visited Egypt to study. If there were only applied arithmetic methods as we have seen in the papyri, the trip would have had little value. But where are the records of achievement? Very likely, the mathematics extant was absorbed into the body of Greek mathematics -- in an age where new and better works completely displaced the old, and in this case the old works written in hieroglypics. Additionally, the Alexandrian library, one place where ancient Egyptian mathematical works may have been preserved, was destroyed by about 400 CE." [2] (http://www.math.tamu.edu/~don.allen/history/egypt/node5.html)

Some historians believe that our ancient Roman ancestors destroyed more than just ancient Egyptian civilization and society, not to mention totally obliterating their peoples from the face of the Earth (but yes, was it the Romans? or Persians? or Greeks? or the Arabs in the end? or ...? We cannot point fingers here, because we have no definite knowledge). Some historians believe that our ancient ancestors plundered specialized knowledge of ancient Egypt and conspired to publicly declare those ideas (to us, their children) as their own. Note, for example, the Great Pyramid of Giza. Please read the article on that page. Why are we so confounded in this modern day for an explanation as to how it might have been feasibly constructed? Some are saying advanced engineering while others are claiming advanced alchemy!!! Note also the Suez Canal. Why would the ancient Egyptians dig such a monumental canal over 3000 years ago if they didn't possess a need to pass thru? -- 209.150.67.45

The principle error made by 209.150.67.45 is the assumption that the ancient Egyptians used decimal fractions — they did not. They always used proper fractions like 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, 1/4, 2/5, etc. and their sums. For example, 8/9 would have been represented as 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/18. See Ancient Egyptian Numbers (http://cs.winona.edu/tgeggharrison/publications/sigcse01.pdf) (210KB). In the first example provided by 209.150.67.45, 4×(8/9)² (or 3.160493...) from Egyptian mathematics, the decimal fraction is the modern equivalent of 4×(8/9)², it was not used by the ancient Egyptians. The second example, Golden ratio, as its name implies, was a ratio or a proper fraction — the decimal fraction is only provided for our understanding.

However, I do not doubt that the ancient Egyptians understood 'nothingness', as I think all languages include such a concept. That is a principle problem with virtually all histories of numbers, and particularly the history of zero — they only discuss its symbolic representation, like 0, totally ignoring the word zero. Hence we have the totally false notion that the concept of zero was unknown in Western Europe before its symbol was introduced in the twelfth century. — Joe Kress 21:17, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)

[Please] do not break up another user's comments. It belittles their words. You may reword your response accordingly. And please sign your posts. See Wikipedia:Talk page — Joe Kress 10:45, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, the assumption is yours. You may not accurately state, for example, that the Egyptians never put dots of red ink on their noses just because we don't have any paintings showing this. There is insufficient evidence [and too few documents surviving] to back your statements.

For example, for all we know the ancient Egyptian priests may have hidden knowledge from their general population (and the rest of the world). [This is the common argument invoked today to explain ancient Egypt's monumental pyramid constructs and other achievements. No other theory works.] As a matter of fact, by the logic you seem to be using in your statements, you must conclude this to be true, because otherwise we would have documents today to expose our ignorance and eliminate all modern confusion surrounding the construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza and the Suez Canal. Nevertheless, this argument about "usage" is irrelevant, as the next several statements show.

[Referring to pi,] we know that the ancient Egyptians had knowledge of this number. Whether they used it or not, we may not accurately say. [However they certainly did use it in the design of the Great Pyramid of Giza!!] We do not know! There is insufficient documentation to accurately support your statements. However, as you can plainly see, pi is 3 + (fractional elements). Knowledge is power. If we know that they knew about these improper fractional elements, we cannot say they never used them. After all, we are talking about several millennia ago. None of us was around to verify.  :)

[Referring to the golden ratio,] same statement similar to above. And... it is absolutely amazing that they knew about it and used it in the design of their structures (as Rossi found they did in over 55 ancient structures analyzed)!!!

[Referring to Joe's final paragraph in the above arguments...] Agreement! Documentation shows that the symbol was introduced in the twelfth century. We cannot say that the ancient Egyptians did not have a similar or identical symbol just because we don't know about it from the few documents surviving. Please see Alphabet. There you will learn that History is being rewritten as we speak. If you open a 2004 Merriam-Webster Dictionary [3] (http://www.m-w.com/), for example, you will find a history of the Latin Alphabet very much different from what is posted in Wikipedia, because their history written in 2004 is limited to what is recorded in surviving documents, and it is now obviously blatantly incorrect!

In other words, in the above statements you are limiting yourself to what you see. You are not imagining possibilities. When one society conquers another, like criminals taking over a victim's home, what do you think might happen? We must use our imaginations to get a better picture.

But from the few remnants we have, they seem to have been far more advanced than has been commonly speculated. Unfortunately, they are no longer here to tell us. [--209.150.67.45]

/* Joe is correct about "belittling." I have revised the above statements for clarity. Some interesting arguments here! Thank you Joe and 209.150.67.45!! --Roylee

Perhaps you fella's might be interested in this fascinating reference, written by The Rev. Paul Barton, Ph.D. (http://www.latinoreligion.com/index/mn15821/pg27149) (Additional Reading: [4] (http://www.latinoreligion.com/index/pg30882).):

"The earliest people in the Americas were people of the Negritic African race, who entered the Americas ... [for the 2nd time] about thirty thousand years ago in a worldwide maritime undertaking that included journeys from the then wet and lake filled Sahara towards the Indian Ocean and the Pacific, and from West Africa across the Atlantic Ocean.... Some of the ships used during the ancient times, perhaps earlier than 7000 B.C. (which is the date given for cave paintings of the drawings and paintings of boats in the now dried up Sahara desert) are similar to ships used in parts of Africa today. These ships were either made of papyrus or planks lashed with rope, or hollowed out tree trunks. These ancient vessels .. not only ... criss-cross[ed] the Atlantic but they traded out in the Pacific and settled there as well all the way to California.... It has been proven through linguistic studies, religious similarities, racial similarities between the Afro-Olmecs and West Africans, as well as the use of the same language and writing script, that the Afro-Olmecs came from the Mende-Speaking region of West Africa, which once included the Sahara. Sailing and shipbuilding in the Sahara is over twenty thousand years old. In fact, cave and wall paintings of ancient ships were displayed in National Geographic Magazine some years ago. Such ships which carried sails and masts, were among the vessels that swept across the water filled Sahara in prehistoric times.

.  .  .  .

In fact, there is evidence from ancient East Indian chronicles ... of the geat scientific advancement of the Black prehistoric inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization (6000 b.c. to 1700 b.c), who built flying machines, who had flushing toilets, cities on a gridlike pattern, and many of what we may call "modern" conviniences [sic]. About 20,000 years ago, the present-day dried up and desertified Sahara had an aquatic civilization where the Africans who lived on the edges of the giant inland sea, built large ocean-going ships. [5] (http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/ancientamerica.htm) -- Happy reading!! Roylee

To top all this off ... fella's ... ancient Egyptians had knowledge of decimal systems as early as 3100 BC!! See [6] (http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/Ancient-Africa/mad_ancient_egyptpapyrus.html#berlin). Do we really need two or three thousand years to pass by before fractional elements may enter into such a system??? Do you suppose ancient Egyptians knew about it ... but we have no record??? -- Roylee

Please remember, Wikipedia is not the place for idle speculation. References to a Reverend so-and-so's highly unusual theories is not valid substantiation for anything. At most, it may be presented somewhere in the Wikipedia as an intersting theory. But let's focus on established historical facts - and let's focus on the subject matter here - ZERO (the digit and the number) - please--Niels Ø 08:22, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)!

Cleanin gup, merging

0 (number), 0 (disambiguation), and Zero (disambiguation) need to be cleaned up. I'm moving everything to the number, and not the spelled-out english title; and moving dab content to its own page away from the number/numeral article. +sj + 20:25, 12 May 2005 (UTC)