Talk:Wales

Intro Text

Is it just me or is the intro text

"The nation has had no real independence since 1282, when it was taken by the English King. It has no significant national government (see the National Assembly for Wales), does not issue its own currency and is not in control of any armed forces. These are the powers of the national government of the UK, based at Westminster."

a tad anti-Welsh? Seems almost unecessary information at best, Welsh-bashing at worst. Edward I is covered below, and what other nation governed externally has such a putdown for an intro? I'd rather see geographic location (western peninsula of GB), statement on no taxing powers, mention of the Acts of Union etc. mynameismonkey

Removed list of places

I've removed the list of places which would otherwise be orphaned, as they are all now linked to, with the exception of Abersychan, leaving no good reason for them being listed. Warofdreams 17:15, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Not the Royal Coat of Arms

I am a republican, so what do I care? But that is not the Royal Coat of Arms for Wales. maybe it is something to do with the Prince of Wales? But he is not the sovreign so his coat of arms are not those of Wales.

I think you're right. What references do we have for this coat of arms, and what is it supposed to be the coat of arms of? I can see how the royal coats of arms for Scotland and England-and-Wales are different, because they have separate heraldic systems. But that doesn't explain how Wales could have one. Perhaps it's historical, and it's the arms of Glyndŵr or someone, but then it should be in the history section. Can anyone explain why we should keep this? Marnanel 00:47, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

After a little googling, it turns out that quarterly or and argent four lions passant gardant counterchanged appears to be associated with Llywelyn ap Gruffydd: [1] (http://www.baronage.co.uk/classic1/herart07.html). Some more searching shows that Burke's Peerage appears to believe that these are "the arms of the Principality of Wales"[2] (http://www.burkes-peerage.net/Sites/Peerage/SitePages/page62-6d.asp), which is probably authoritative enough. Marnanel 00:59, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

I'm about as nationalist a Welshman as you'll ever find, but there is no "royal coat of arms" other than that of the UK. The arms depicted on the page are Llywelyn's. mynameismonkey

I'm a Welshman, not a nationalist (although come on Wales, let's beat England this afternoon!) but a communist, but there are seperate coats of arms for Scotland and England (although they're almost identical). Charles as Prince of Wales has his own standard as can be seen at http://www.fotw.net/flags/gb-royal.html#pow Dafyddyoung 16:38, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Principality

Despite often being called one, I don't believe Wales is a principality. Dictionaries define one as "a territory ruled by a prince". Wales, however, isn't. "The Prince of Wales" is merely a title. He has nothing to do with the rule of Wales - Wales is ruled by the Queen, by Parliament, or by the Welsh Assembly, depending on how you look at it, but certainly has nothing to do with the Prince of Wales. -- Varitek

Well, Kingdom is defined as "A political or territorial unit ruled by a sovereign.", and I don't really see Brenda doing much ruling as such. So does that make the UK not a Kingdom? Morwen 14:25, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Ah, but she does rule the country. She chooses the Prime Minister to wield power in her name, she has to give Royal Assent to bills, she alone has the power to dissolve Parliament, etc. I know that no royal since Anne has refused assent, and that the monarch always chooses the ruler of the party with a workable majority, and always takes the PM's advice on dissolution - but nonetheless, the powers are hers. The Prince of Wales has no power whatsoever in the rule of Wales (or any other powers unconnected with the Duchy of Cornwall, as far as I know.) Varitek

De-annexation

When was Wales de-annexed from England? It got annexed in 1536 or whenever, was considered part of England when the Kingdom of Great Britain was formed, but at some point the term 'England and Wales' began being used in legislation. Does anyone know when this was? Morwen 14:27, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Aha, found it. Morwen 15:54, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Cambria

>>The Romans gave Wales the name of Cambria<<

Oh, no, they didn't. This part of the historical introduction needs rewriting.

Wales, together with what is today the "West Country" of England, was a part of Britannia Prima (a 4th-century subdivision of the earlier Britannia Superior). Cambria is a Latinization of Cymru first used centuries after the Romans had quit Britain.

Monmouthshire

I'm not too clear on the details but for a long time Monmouthshire's status as being in England or Wales was somewhat ambiguous - a lot of legislation applying to Wales only would refer to "Wales and Monmouthshire". Does anyone know much about this and want to put in a note? -- Timrollpickering 11:00, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

See http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/wales/status.shtml GWO 12:38, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

General question on Welsh History. The second Welsh wars were started after Dafydd ap Gruffydd attacked Hawerden Castle in North Wales. From Where did he launch this attack? Anyone know? Denbigh or Caergwrle - have read differing histories.

Motto

This page gives "Y ddraig Goch ddyry cychwyn" (aside: why the capital G?); the Welsh (w:cy) article has "Cymru am byth". Which is it? –Hajor

Cymru am Byth is the national motto, Y ddraig goch... is the royal motto; for about 6 years in the 1950s the national flag included a badge with the draig goch motto, but it was dropped reputedly because there's an alternative translation which is rather more, um, earthy! Arwel 16:29, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Changing the one here to Cymru am byth then. "Wales For Ever", right? –Hajor 00:31, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes. Arwel 00:47, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hi "Y ddraig Goch.." is incorrect spelling of the motto. Its correct spelling is "Y ddraig coch ddyry cychwyn". Which means The Red Dragon Advances.

Y ddraig goch is correct: draig is feminine and so triggers the soft mutation of the initial consonant of the following adjective. --Angr/_comhrá 13:07, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Caerdydd

Removing a piece of useful information ('Caerdydd') from the page just because it's not English was pretty damned childish. Varitek 20:48, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nation or not?

The page has been edited with the comment 'Wales is not a nation'. But the OED definition of the word 'nation' includes A group of people having a single ethnic, tribal, or religious affiliation, but without a separate or politically independent territory.. Therefore Wales is a nation. Besides, I'd rather talk about 'Six Nations Rugby' than 'Two nations, a combined nation and province, two countries and a principality Rugby'.

Wales is a nation, a country, and a principality. Th terms are not mutually exclusive. Wales is *not* a state. It is also part of a Kingdom. mynameismonkey

"Stranger or slave"

Can anyone point me to an authoritative source that shows that the Germanic root from which the name of Wales derives can mean "slave"? Marnanel 15:39, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Wealas, from Saxon wealh - servant, slave: http://www.websters-dictionary-online.org/definition/english/we/wealas.html Mynameismonkey

My understanding is that the Germanic term may ultimately come from the name of a Celtic tribe living under Roman rule, possibly the "Volcae" in what is now southern Germany or Bohemia. This led to the use of the tribe's name to mean "Romanised Celts" in general, and it is this sense which is supposed to be behind the use of the term elsewhere e.g. the "Welsh" were Romanised Celts to the Germanic Anglo-Saxon invaders, the French-speaking population of Belgium known as "Walloons" would also ultimately be descended from Romanised Celts, as would the Wallachians of modern Romania. I think Germanic tribes tended to use different terms to describe other non-Celtic "strangers". The Anglo-Saxon reference above might actually be a secondary meaning resulting from Anglo-Saxon dominance over their "Welsh" neighbours.

Any academic references to back this up would of course be helpful.

"Cymru fo am byth"

...means "Wales for ever", doesn't it? Some anon has just changed the translation to "Wales never yields". Can someone with more Welsh than I have comment? Marnanel 16:38, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The form "Cymru fo am byth" is only used as part of the lyrics of Men of Harlech as far as I can tell (Google search). (http://www.google.com/search?num=20&hl=cy&ie=UTF-8&safe=active&q=%22cymru+fo+am+byth%22&btnG=Chwiliwch) The more popular version is "Cymru am byth", but this is still far from being a national motto. It is, however, probably the closest thing we have to one. And it means "Wales for ever", yes. Gareth 21:34, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Cities

An anon has added Bangor and St David's to the list of subdivisions of Wales under "cities". While it's true that they are cities, they're administered by county councils and aren't unitary authorities in the same way that Cardiff or Swansea are. I'm not sure how properly to resolve the ambiguity here; perhaps the whole section needs rewriting. Marnanel 18:55, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Home

My great-grandfather immigrated to America around the turn of the century; so Cymru is still home to me, but I've never seen my homeland. I've tried to find research sites, but all I've gotten is sites for the damned tourists. Can anyone give me a hint as to good places to look for family in Cymru and information on it as a whole? I'd be much obliged.

incorrect

The nation has had no real independence since 1282, when it was taken by the English King.

The above statement is incorrect in the sense that Wales has just as much independence as any other nation in great britain.All power is central at westminster,with representatives from both England,Scotland,Northern Ireland and Wales.

Which doesn't really sound like real independence to me.

"Character of the Welshman"?

This section seems horribly unscientific and rather insulting. Possible vandalism?

Age breakdown

Why are the age ranges listed so skewed? Its no surprise, and not really informative, that the age ranges spanning 15 years have more people in that range than the ranges that span only 2 years. I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to show. Whatever it is intended for, I'm sure it could be done better by having a more balanced distribution of ranges, perhaps targetting a 10 year span for each group. Tritium6 20:40, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Those are the age ranges used by the 2001 Census site. -- Arwel 21:05, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One rabbit for you to cahse at the battle of Boworth field Henry tudor a welshman had abanner for hos army it was the red dragon ( cadwaladr banner) which is now that of wales. why is this not in your history . This factb is recorded in many history books

Images of Wales

I've changed the image gallery to make use of Wikipedia's 'gallery' template, which seems to be less intrusive for the overall feel of the page. I've also added some photos of important Welsh institutions. If you don't like the changes, feel free to revert back to the old style, I'm not entirely convinced of the change myself! Twrist 23:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Province??

I can rest assure everyone here that Wales is not a province. Wales is a country, the first country to unite with England as a matter of fact to form the United Kingdom. Maybe before 1955 Wales was a province of England, but not anymore. The words "Provincial Capital" have been removed.

Draig goch20 13:01, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, that's not true. Wales is not a country (the only countries in the British Isles are the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland), and hasn't been a country for over 700 years, for that matter. It's a nation, and legally a principality, but it isn't a country.

I think we should revert your removal.

James F. (talk) 13:43, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You're right, but 'capital' by itself is sufficiently NPoV. After all we can have 'capitals' of counties, &c. Of course this doesn't get into the debate as to whether we need regional capitals or not, and why it should be Cardiff, but that's another debate! :) Owain 15:23, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thats like saying that Scotland isn't a country? or England for that matter? and those countries do consider themselves "Countries". What makes it different for Wales, does it make it easier for others to walk all over us? Draig goch20 18:38, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Well they aren't are they? The UK is the country, which consists of multiple parts. Why do people get all worked up about it anyway? Like you said it makes no real difference, it's all about perception. I'm sure some people in Catalonia or the Basque region consider those places to be separate de facto countries, but they are not de jure. Owain 18:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The situation is different, though, because, so far as I am aware, there is no particular official term to refer to the constituent parts of the UK. Catalonia is an autonomous community (and used to be, I think, a region). But there is no proper term for what England is, or what Scotland is. I'd certainly like to see some evidence that "nation" is used in any more official sense than "country." Certainly the adjective "national" is used to refer to things pertaining to the whole UK, so the UK, in addition to being a state, would appear to be a nation and a country, as well. The basic fact is, there is no good term for describing any of these places. john k 18:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I went into google and it actually states something different. "the territory occupied by a nation; "he returned to the land of his birth"; "he visited several European countries" type in "define: Country". I am not arguing, I am clearing things up, we have alway's considered ourselves a "Country" and so do Welsh politicians. The UK is a Union of Countries, one a former province (Wales) and two other countries, Scotland and England. Draig goch20 18:53, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Ah yes, the old Google = truth test. You may well 'consider' Wales to be a country, and that is your prerogative, but the UK is not a union of countries, it is one country. Wales has never really existed as a single unified entity, even up to the Laws in Wales Act 1543, there was 'the principality' and the Marches. Prior to the Norman invasion of Britain it was a number of separate kingdoms, as was England. The concept of Wales existing as a separate entity that joined a 'Union of countries' a la the EU is pure fiction. Owain 19:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Principality of Wales?

Is it at all accurate to say that Wales is the "Principality of Wales" (and to have Principality of Wales redirect here)? My understanding was that the Principality of Wales only existed between 1282 and 1543, and consisted of the original 8 counties created by Edward I in the former year (while the rest of Wales continued under the control of the Marcher Lords). After 1543, Wales was simply part of England, and not a separate "principality" in any real sense... john k 17:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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