Talk:Varangian

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Contents

1 old talk 2 Harald Harfagri 3 The evolution of this article 4 Source for term viking 5 Greek fire 6 Origin of the name Varangian

old talk

The following phrase removed

<-- said by whom? not in the mentioned chronicles --(these Slavic and Finnish tribes are said to have rebelled against a previous Scandinavian rule) -->

Varangians ARE the first mentioned rulers of Slavs, of hypothetically Scandinavian origin. It looks like the above statemnt resulted from a series of editorial "improvements". Mikkalai

Mikkalai, have you ever read the primary chronicle???? It explicitly says what YOU pretend it does NOT.--Wiglaf 12:39, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes I did read it. It does NOT say what I say it does not. Read for yourself.

Въ л4то 6367. Имаху дань Варязи из заморья на Чюди и на Слов4енехъ. Мери и на Вс4хъ и на Кривич4хъ.

Въ л4то 6370. Изъгнаша Варягы за море и не даша им дани. И почаша сами в собъ володати. И не б4 въ нихъ правды, и въста род на род, и быша в нихъ усобиц4, и воевати почаша сами на ся. И р4ша сами въ себъ:"поищемъ соб4 князя, иже бы влад4лъ нами и судилъ по праву." И идоша за море къ Варягомъ, к Руси, Сице бо ся зваху ти Варязи Русь, яко се друзии зовуться Свее, друзия же Урмане, Англяне, инии Г4те.

The text says only that initially Varangians collected contribution from slavic-fennic tribes, but neither they ruled nor lived there. (text says: varangians from over the sea). Of course, one can speculate differently, but it will be only speculation. Not to say that the chronicle itself is a third-hand source of these times.

So let's not translate it into our understanding, and say what it says: varangians robbed slavs, then were driven away, then were invited specifically to rule, and say it with the proper attribution, too.

If you have any other original source on this issue, you are velcome to quote. Mikkalai 17:59, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As for Rus == Swedes, the Chronicle specifically says: "These varangians were called Rus, just as the other ones were called Swedes, still others were Germans, Angles or Goths. So that was their name." Mikkalai 18:21, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but "Swede" was not a simple concept in Viking age Scandinavia. There was the Swedish king, but he was the king of peope who usually only called themselves, Geats, närkingar (Nerike), västermän (Westmannia), södermän (Sudermannia), Gutar (Gotland, the Goths of the chronicle), and Ros-byggjar (Roslagen). If you want to have a look at the controversy of "Swede", look at Ancient Uppsala.--Wiglaf 18:45, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Exactly why do you consider this piece irrelevant? : "The Slavic inhabitants called these Swedes Rus'." Inform me, please.--Wiglaf 19:01, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sorry for being imprecise. This detail better be confined to the Rus' article. Also, there are no Slavic sources from the 8th century to confirm your claim. Also, it is very likely that at these times the Ladoga area was inhabited by Fennic peoples, rather than Slavs. Mikkalai 20:06, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Of course, the Ladoga area was in most likelihood settled by Fenno-Ugric tribes before the Slavs. My question concerns why you removed a piece that was inserted 19:40, 10 Jun 2003, by Adam Bishop. I find it relevant and will put it back.--Wiglaf 20:29, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The phrase in question cannot be as a matter of fact with respect to this time frame. For these times for which documentation is scarse one must be very careful. Thre is too much misinformation and loosely grounded conjectures and extrapolations on this issue floating around already. Either you prove it, or it is out. Mikkalai 22:07, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK, so after over a year, you demand conclusive proof for the veracity of a sentence. Since the text consequently needs some revision, I have moved a discussion on early Russian scholarship to the page where it belongs.--Wiglaf 05:27, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

We don't have conclusive info about some things related to certain times. How would you like a phrase: "Varangians lived in Kiev in 7th century and were known as Rus"? Where is the burden of proof? there are well-known things, at least easily verifiable, and there are not so easily verifiable ones. I've never heard of someone conclusively claiming that slavs called someone Rus in 8th century or earlier. faldan?rustah?saint bertran?constantine? Which other early references are missing? If there are such, then most definitly they would be extremely important to be referred here as an important argument. Mikkalai 01:58, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

We do have one source, the authors of the Primary Chronicle. Every time I read it, I am struck with the pride the author shows of being Slavic. Still, when he describes the "Rus'" he clearly states that they were Varangians (who he defines as Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon), and that they came from across the sea. He clearly states that the Rus' were Varangians and that the Varangians who settled in Eastern Europe were called "Rus'".--Wiglaf 15:41, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Now I seem to uderstand what our problem is. I am not arguing against that slavs called them Rus. I am arguing against the date. It is 860 in the chronicle, which is 9th century, not 8th (people got confused over centuries in this way all the time). Of course, one may reasonably extapolate that 60 years ago they were most probably called Rus as well. But we are talking about solid evidence here. Mikkalai 16:19, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am sorry but what is solid evidence? There is rarely anything you can call solid evidence in academia. If everything written in Wikipedia was based on solid evidence, I don't believe that there would be many pages. What we can say is whether most scholars agree on this or that.--Wiglaf 20:44, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, you better be sorry :-). The problem is not with evidence, but with interpretations thereof. In our case there is nothing, zilch, nada to interpret in the first place. Mikkalai 23:54, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There is a source called the Primary Chronicle written for Slavs and by Slavs. In this text a Slav or Slavs call those Varangians "Rus". I call it a source, you call it "nothing, zilch, nada". We can agree to disagree.--Wiglaf 19:51, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sigh... You are not listening. (or you have a short attention span and comment only very last sentence in the discussion, out of context. Shall I recount the whole discussion each time I make a new comment?) I don't question the fact itself. Yes, YES, YES!!!, I do agree slavs called them Rus. I am questioning the date, the timestamp, the year when it was reportedly happening. We don't know about the 8th century. We know only it is reported for the 9th century. If you know any report related to 8th century that mentions the word Rus as used by slavs, please, don't withhold this information. Mikkalai 21:39, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Calm down. I agree with you. I thought you meant "ever".--Wiglaf 15:30, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yeesh, if I knew three years ago, when I heard about Varangians for the first time, that they were so contentious a topic, I would never have bothered studying them :) Adam Bishop 05:32, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, in the West it is not a contentious subject. The main reason why I am interested in it is because my wife is Russian and has a phD in history. My mother-in-law is a professor of history at the Academy of Science in Moscow. Let's say that Rurik and Poltava are part of my life.

My wife says that the problem with the role of the Varangians in the creation of Kievan Rus' is that some people in the former Soviet Union feel that it is a "national defeat".--Wiglaf 17:08, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Why don't you call it pluralism instead? I smell double standard here: when two americans speak differently, it is democracy, when two Russians disagree, it is stupid brawl, and when a Russian disagrees with an American, it is WWIII. Mikkalai 23:54, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

For the record: I don't doubt in validity of Normanist theory. History knows quite a few cases when a bunch of tough guys seize a power in a foreign land only to dissolve in the local population, possibly leaving some of nobility to remember their roots. And I see no particular glory in varangians but their skills to keep power in their hands. Mikkalai 00:08, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I quoted a RUSSIAN.--Wiglaf 19:51, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is there, by any chance, a written source supporting Varangians was vikings? One source, a single place it is written that they were vikings? Dan Koehl 19:47, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, off the top of my head, there is the account of Liutprand that dicusses some Varangians returning home to Sweden from Constantinople, through Germany, and the German emperor imprisons them because he thinks they may be spies for the Danes (who were what we consider Vikings). Adam Bishop 06:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Harald Harfagri

Recently an anon tried to replace Harald Hardraada by Harald Harfagri. The latter article (or a redirect?) seems missing. Can anyone fix the miss? Mikkalai 18:53, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK. I did it myself. Mikkalai 18:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The evolution of this article

I have had this article unwatched for a few months and I discovered that the Normanist version is given in the past tense and limited to 18th century Germans, whereas the anti-normanist version is given in the present tense. Moreover, non-existent Norse sagas are referred to. Mikkalai et al, can we start a serious discussion on why this is considered NPOV?--Wiglaf 22:33, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I guess that I will have to read every article about this matter now, to check what has happened.--Wiglaf 22:46, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I guess so. Why didn't you have it on your watchlist? Being a non-expert, I detected this substitution of Haralds by simply being naturally suspicious to anons. Much other stuff could have passed thru my eyes unnoticed. Mikkalai 00:02, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I unwatched because I was very tired of this controversy. I will have a look at the pages in due time.--Wiglaf 06:54, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Source for term viking

No source has stated that vargian was vikings, see my question above. I remove the term viking. Dan Koehl 14:03, 16 May 2005 (UTC) if any queries Contact: Abishek email: abishek07@gmail.com

Greek fire

Why was Greek fire removed?--Wiglaf 20:13, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Origin of the name Varangian

There is a geographical region in Northern Norway called Varanger. In Norwegian the people living around the White Sea have always been known as Varangians. These fact have been used by Norwegian national-romantics to claim the Varangians as Norwegians. Though this is obvioulsy not accurate, it seems plausible that the term Varangian stem from this area, rather than the glacial period mentioned in the article. --Tokle 13:18, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

That sounds interesting. Do you have any sources on this etymology?--Wiglaf 17:43, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think Thor Heyerdahl mentions it in his book about the origins of norse mythology "Jakten på Odin" (The hunt for Odin). But I might be wrong. --Tokle 10:22, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)