Talk:Timothy McVeigh

Contents

1 Refining Details 2 militia and patriot movement 3 Conspiracy theories and attribution 4 Links 5 First execution? 6 Protected Page / Terrorism 7 From RfC 8 Conspiracy Theories 9 Protection? Status? 10 Militia movement/Turner Diaries

Refining Details

There is little pleasure to be found in refining these details, but there is more to this subject. Other principal actors, especially Terry Nichols, need a place, as does the citizens petition presented by Rep. Charles Key for a grand jury which led to Nichols' indictmentin Oklahoma state court. Back in the OKBomb page, the brig. gens'. detonation analysis was perhaps outdated by revelations that nitromethane was the primary hydrocarbon component of the bomb, rather than far less volatile deisel oil. The "Reichstag fire" theory is popular, but several other theories are worth noting, including those involving and not involving gov complicity . There is evidence the gov knew (check Carol Howe, Andrew Strasmeyer) something was afoot, there is evidence infiltrators of right wing groups might have gone rogue on thier handlers (The Midwest Bank Robbers, Secret Service gained release of robbery suspect from GA jail), and some of the geographic locations involveed (elohim city especially) deserve mention. There are reliable witness accounts reported in several sources (which I verified with the original witnesses and/or investigators) of a group of surly men at the KS lake where the gov says the bomb was assembled, and that there were was another Ryder truck and a stakeside truck involved in transfering or staging the bomb components.

None of the evidence anomylous to the gov case needs outweight the popular theory advanced by McVeigh himself before his death that he acted alone, but it needs room in the account, IMHO. More details of his life, military career and pre-bombing affiliations can all go here, too.

I rounded this out some. If the account of the main details is strong, it might be easier to balance anomolous evidence. Not sure how soon I'll work on this - I just noticed it and it needed some work. I have an eye on the Oklahoma City Bombing page, too - some of this can link out to other articles as it develops, maybe.

JRT7 08:37, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

militia and patriot movement

it would be usseful for the article to go into some details (or even mention) his relationship with these movements.

and to be fair, mention that nearly every person in the militia movement would have happily hung McVeigh themselves, if given the chance to do so.

Conspiracy theories and attribution

Before his execution, some speculated McVeigh was framed, or that others were involved.

Various analysts have suggested the government had a role in a conspiracy behind the bombing, or even planned the attack, so as to have grounds for persecuting right-wing organizations in a manner similar to Nazi prosecution of legislators after the Reichstag fire.

I think that Wikipedia should be above using such non-specific attributions as "some" or "various analysts". If Wikipedia is going to include conspiracy theories, we need to be a little more specific about the people or groups advancing them. In this case, I suspect that "various analysts" gives more credibility to the claim than would be the case if proper attribution was made.

Links

What happened to the links? Why have they all turned red? --Euniana 09:26, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

First execution?

It was the first execution of a convicted criminal by the federal government of the United States since the execution of Victor Feguer in Iowa on March 15, 1963. Uh - really? I could have sworn that there were some other executions between 1963 and 2001. Captainmax 01:02, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I believe the point is that he was executed by the Federal government, rather than by a state government, but I don't know whether even that limited claim is accurate. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 16:54, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

Dante is correct; the limited claim is accurate. Neutrality^talk 03:04, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Protected Page / Terrorism

I believe calling McVeigh a terrorist wholesale is incorrect. Terrorist is a highly POV term and that is why even the media refuse to use that word. He was, however, convincted of terrorist charges, which is correctly defined in the article as it is. Please see Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid

If we are to allowed to use such POV terms, then such POV terms can also apply to Sharon and Bush and even Mandela. We can not call Mandela a terrorist wholesale just because he was convincted of terrorist acts by the aparthied government. 66.194.152.87 11:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Words to avoid does not say to not use the term, it says that some people don't like it for certain situations. This particular situation is the clearest example of a terrorist that anyone could come up with. He was legally convicted and executed for killing hundreds of people to try get his message across. The fact that you constantly point to a page that contradicts what you claim yet claim it supports you is not too wise. Editors have consistently reverted your highly POV change to try to whitewash the fact that he was a terrorist. Consensus has been reached, accept that and move on. DreamGuy 11:42, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

It does say that if you use the term you should qualify it with stating who thinks he is a terrorist. Over 1 billion people believe Sharon is a terrorist for the acts he did in the early 1980s and there are UN resolutions stating so. Does that mean we can then call Sharon a terrorist wholesale? Sharon has killed a heck of a lot more people than McVeigh did. And McVeigh did it as revenge against the FBI for what happened in Waco. It is fine the way it is right now without your constant reverts. Nobody else has been reverted since it was reworded to say he was simply convincted of terrorist activities rather than simply saying he was a terrorist. 66.194.152.87 11:47, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I've protected the page, I'm not sure how you're going to settle this, does being convicted as a terrorist, I would lean on the side of yes.--nixie 11:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I do not understand what you mean. Do you mean the article should simply state he was convincted of terrorism in the US court or do you mean that he should be called a terrorist wholesale because he was convicted of terrorism in the US court? 66.194.152.87 11:58, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Basically we need a vote, I think, to demonstrate that terrorist is an accurate description in the consensus view, as edit comments by numerous editors have already shown but anon user refuses to accept. If he's clearly shown that his side has no support then he will n ot be able to say anything about it. DreamGuy 12:04, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Strange how even Osama_bin_Laden is not directly called a terrorist straight out either. Have a look at the discussion page where they debate if he is a freedom fighter or a terrorist. 66.194.152.87 12:18, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I have yet to process the rest of the disputes on this page, but to the anon's point above about "the media" not using the word terrorist — as a member of the national print media, I can tell you that we do use the word terrorist. As far as I know, Reuters is the only organization that has stopped using the word. It's accurate to say that Reuters has stopped using the word terrorist, but "the media" has not. · Katefan0^(scribble) 02:46, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

I have yet to decide on the issue of using the word 'terrorist' to describe McVeigh, but I would like to hear 66.194.152.87's opinion on why the 9-11 hijackers should not be called terrorists. The [9-11 Attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks)] page describes these attacks as 'terrorist'. Should the article instead read, "The September 11, 2001 attacks were a series of coordinated terrorist airplane attacks..."? Monkeyman 15:59, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

After further reading, might I direct everyone to read the top of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:September_11%2C_2001_attacks] and the referenced page [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Use_of_the_word_terrorism_%28policy_development%29]? It looks like this ground has been well covered before. Monkeyman 16:16, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

From RfC

Well, after thinking a bit, I do agree that the word "terrorist" can be a loaded phrase (that's why Reuters banned it -- stupid if you ask me, though the discussion isn't). One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. That isn't to say, though, that it shouldn't be used -- but I think it should be used judiciously. It seems to me that most people would consider McVeigh a terrorist. The FBI certainly did: On August 14, McVeigh was sentenced to death for carrying out the most deadly act of terrorism in U.S. history. ([1] (http://www.fbi.gov/publications/terror/terr97.pdf)) I think that's good enough for me. · Katefan0^(scribble) 03:03, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

I thought wikipedia is supposed to describe what people say, write and think, not make value judgements of its own. McVeigh is a hero to many people for blowing up the FBI secret police of an oppressive government that killed children in Waco, Texas. --Spaz 03:06, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

It's a valid point -- we're here to summarize pertinent and valid information into an NPOV article. But that doesn't mean that we have to give equal time to views that are not the mainstream (as an example, pseudoscience). They deserve an airing, but sometimes that's it. To the point, though, I don't necessarily think it's POV to say that he was considered a terrorist, particularly since the FBI did, and I think that's probably the majority view. If someone else wants to craft a paragraph saying he's considered a "freedom fighter" and can point to something verifiable, I suppose that could be considered for inclusion too. · Katefan0^(scribble) 03:12, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

There was a reaction from the militia-type groups on the acts McVeigh did. Some did consider him a hero and some distanced themselves from him. Many of these type groups disbanded, since a huge stain was put on militia groups. So something related to militia groups should be included in here, but in a NPOV way. Zscout370 (talk) 11:28, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

How about, "Like any mass murderer, Timothy McVeigh has supporters." --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:02, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

My idea: "Dispite the wide-spread condemnation of his actions, McVeigh had a small group of supporters." We could talk about the type of groups that supported him. Zscout370 (talk) 17:13, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

• I think the fact that the FBI considered him a domestic terrorist needs to be mentioned somewhere. Particularly if we're going to be giving time to his fans. · Katefan0^(scribble) 16:17, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

Conspiracy Theories

This needs to get added to the web page: http://www.jaynadavis.com/story090502-wsj1.html

There is a theory that John Doe #2 was an arab with connections to Iraq and Al Qaeda. This is definitely a conspiracy theory, but it has gotten widespread media coverage and ought to be mentioned.

thats likly propagandist hogwash, drummed up by government people on order to cash in on the fear . i know i sound odd for saying that in that way, but thats a distinct possiblllity, and if it is true then al queda shouldnt be mentioned here.

btw, sign your posts. Gabrielsimon 07:30, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Protection? Status?

I just stopped by, and have no intention of getting involved in an edit war. My comments as an outsider: It seems this page is protected but there's no discussion going on. It's not even immediately clear what the dispute is. (I haven't waded through the history.) Perhaps protection should be lifted. JamesMLane 02:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

• It was protected essentially over an edit war about whether McVeigh should be called a domestic terrorist or not. · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:35, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

• I'm afraid the solitary anonymous user is back now forcing his idea that McVeigh was not a terrorist onto this encyclopedia despite the clear agreement that has been reached. For crying out loud, McVeigh's own autobiography calls himself a terrorist, this is not an issue. It's just one solitary editor (who has been caught posting with sockpuppet accounts and banned for it in the past) trying to slip in language to hide an accurate use of the term on someone whose activities he apparently supports, as he's tried to go through and change refereces to these terrorists to "martyrs" and now has backed off that slightly for this article yet still tries to lie about what the actual policy here is to try to trick people into getting rid of an accurate description. This page should not be held hostage by a single anon user with an obvious (and disgusting) agenda. DreamGuy 21:40, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Since the concensus is to have DreamGuys version, I suggest that changes by the anon to the domestic terrorist statement be reverted. --nixie 00:49, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe a consensus has ever been reached. Can I first request DreamGuy and Anon User read [this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Use_of_the_word_terrorism_%28policy_development%29)] link regarding the use of the word Terrorism? If they cannot come to an agreement among themselves then we should adhere to the rules listed in the preceding link. Monkeyman 14:39, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

• I changed the first paragraph to say basically that the FBI considered him a domestic terrorist, which they did. It's proper and sourceable. I think that may be the best way out of the conflict. · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:25, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

• There is no conflict, except for the complaining and maneuvering of one anonymous user who supports domestic terrorism and wants it to have a good name. What, do we have to go into every article here and get rid of harsh words calling other people murderers when they were convicted of murder, thieves when they were convicted of theft, and so forth just because a criminal element (ore wannabe/cheerleader faction) finds the truth inconvenient? Timothy McVeigh called HIMSELF a terrorist. We don't need weasel words or attribution for something so incredibly clear. The fact that you are confused into thinking there is a REAL conflict when it's just a POV vandal who is trying to twist policies and confuse people (like his every edit claims I was blocked but fails to note he was blocked himself and that I was only blocked because of his incessant whining about "fairness" -- when he just jumped ionto a new IP address the moment he wsa blocked and doesn't care about being fair at all -- and confusing an admin into what really happened)}. If we let a perfectly truthful and completely agreed upon (even by the subject himself) term become fought over like this there's nothing stopping the POV warriors of fringe and criminal elements from overrunning the entire encyclopedia. It's about time some of you got some balls and stood up against the people trying to ruin this website. They don't play by the rules, they don;t care, so why are you bending backwards to be "fair" to someone who wishes that McVeigh had bombed whatever city you were in because he was a "martyr" and a good guy? DreamGuy 23:39, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

i do not agree with what mcveigh did, and i absolutely protest calling him a terrorist in the article, regardless of what he called himself (as if what he called himself is relevant to what an NPOV encyclopedia calls him). so please consider the count of the opposition to your view to have doubled in the last minute. i also find the argument in the preceding paragraph to be more fallacious than not. SaltyPig 04:53, 2005 May 28 (UTC)

dont wnat to call hoim a terrorist because hes an american huh? well the FBI called him one, so change it back.

Gabrielsimon 06:33, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

• Look, here's the problem with just calling the guy a "terrorist." Some people could argue that that is loaded lanugage, and indeed that word is on wikipedia's words to avoid. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter -- personally I find the whole objection detestable and a little silly, but that's just my opinion and others are also entitled to theirs. Back to the problem: by, ourselves, using the word "terrorist" as an adjective to describe McVeigh we are weighing in with a point of view on the side of those who considered him a terrorist (as opposed to a freedom fighter). But if we quote the FBI, saying they considered him a terrorist, that is a proper way to introduce the concept into the article in an NPOV way without having Wikipedia appearing to take a side either way. · Katefan0^(scribble) 06:43, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

• • while i don't agree that the objection is detestable or silly, i do agree that there's no problem quoting the FBI on the subject as long as it's attributed explicitly, correctly, and proportionally. wikipedia should remain neutral -- even more so in cases such as this. no reason for the argument on this page to extend anywhere beyond that. fighting to call mcveigh a terrorist is blatant POV and agenda pushing. let the FBI call him a terrorist, then call it a day. SaltyPig 10:15, 2005 May 28 (UTC)
    • Completely agree. · Katefan0^(scribble) 15:01, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

I also agree. This is in accordance with [Wikipedia policy development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Use_of_the_word_terrorism_%28policy_development%29)]. Monkeyman 13:15, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Militia movement/Turner Diaries

As noted previously on this page, this article seems to be missing basic information. McVeigh was associated in the press and by the FBI with the militia movement and was reading the Turner Diaries. These seem like significant and well-known issues. Is there a reason these are not included? -Willmcw 17:55, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

I only came here because of the RfC on using the word terrorist, which seems to have been resolved -- so I'm not sure about the earlier debate. But it seems eminently reasonable that an article on McVeigh should treat those items in some fashion. · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:59, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)