Talk:Thou
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Is "you" just a "thou" spelled with a thorn instead of a you? And "ye" a "thee" spelled with a thorn? In other words are these actually different words or just artifacts from a change in alphabet? Rmhermen 14:01 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- No; thou represents Old English þu, while ye is the nominative case that represents Old English ge or 3e. You is the old accusative case of ge, Old English eow. When Middle English scriveners inexplicably omitted the needful letter thorn for the digraph th, the letter Þ was no longer recognised. Printers substituted y for it, resulting in spellings like ye for the and so forth. This is how you get Ye Olde Internet Cafe and similar bogus spellings. But thou and ye are quite distinct. -- IHCOYC 15:44 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- Okay, but are thou and you distinct? (And are thee and ye distinct?) — Paul A 04:13 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- Yes. The second person pronouns of Old English were:
Singular: Nom. þû Gen. þîn Dat. þê Acc. þê(c)
which became thou, thine, thee, thee in early Modern English
Plural:
Nom. 3ê Gen. êower Dat. êow Acc. êow
which became ye, your, you, you in early Modern English
The two paradigms each lead to the separate forms seen in Early Modern English. Ye is only a nominative case form, and thee only an accusative case form. If this doesn't answer the question, I may not be understanding it. -- IHCOYC 04:43 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- No, I think I just didn't understand your answer. :o)
Thank you. — Paul A 04:57 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- No, I think I just didn't understand your answer. :o)
I restored the phrasing of my reference to the Mighty Thor. The purpose of that phrase was to make certain it was understood that I was talking about the comic book superhero rather than the Norse god. The comic book by Stan Lee and/or Jack Kirby is a rich lode of Thee and Thou, and shows the use of the pronoun for colour in a context somewhat remote from poetry or religion. -- IHCOYC 03:56 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I stand corrected. - Litefantastic 15:49, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
It seems I must wage a never-ending battle to retain the references to God, Achilles, the skylark, and Thor. The point of the references is to show that thou, when used by relatively recent writers, implies something exactly opposite from intimate familiarity or condescension. In case anyone doubts that the pronoun has in fact been used this way by more recent writers, I have supplied external links containing references to the Revised Standard Version, a poem by Shelley, a 1921 version of a passage from the Iliad, and what appears to be a fan fiction. Please take note of this before simply removing these references. -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:42, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
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You'ns
When I was in the Air Force, I had a roommate from Youngstown, Ohio who used you'ns for second person plural. Is this a regional slang? RickK 19:44, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, it is heard at least in South Midlands dialect of American English. Rmhermen 19:54, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)
Y'all and Yous
In this article, it's said that "Yous" is the Northern US slang for the plural case of "You" and that "Y'all" is the Southern US slang for the same.
As someone who lives in the Northern US, I would just like to point out that this is completely inaccurate. "Y'all" is the "correct" plural case of "You" in the regional dialect of the Northwestern US (Washington, Idaho, Oregon, Montana, etc.). Since "Y'all" is used as the plural case in the Northwest and the South (both east and west), it would seem that "Yous" is limited to the Northeastern US -- e.g., it's a "yankee" term. The other three quarters of the US used "Y'all".
I can see how someone who lives in the Eastern US might make this mistake, as Easterners often seem to forget that there's an entire country out there beyond just the east coast, but this inaccuracy still needs to be corrected.
I should also note that the word "slang" is being used incorrectly as well. The word "slang" refers to a word being used in a way that is different from it's actual definition. In order to be slang, something must first be an actual word. A good example of slang is using the word "cool" to denote something that one considers to be good (although this particular case may not be the best example, as I understand that modern dictionaries are beginning to include this definition of "cool" alongside the more archaic uses). "Y'all" and "Yous" can't be slang, since they don't have other legitimate definitions.
"Y'all" is also a conjunction of two words, meaning "You all", which isn't truly gramatically incorrect. A conjunction is just a shortening of two words into one, and they can only be "incorrect" if their meaning isn't obvious. Just because it's not listed in a dictionary like the word "isn't" doesn't mean it isn't correct -- especially in the 21st century when almost every English-speaking person in the world knows what the conjunction "Y'all" means. "Yous" on the other hand, is just an attempt to pluralize the already plural "You" by people who have a poor grasp of the English language. It's a gramatical error (and a very sad one, at that), not a conjunction used in place of a grammatically correct term such as "You all".
- I thought 'yous' is being used in Scotland, and is mostly a scottish-english form, this should be confirmed and integrated into the article.
- Concur on "y'all" in Washington State. (Though I used it only sporadically until I became fluent in a T-V language (Ukrainian), whereupon I found it indispensable. Shades of Sapir and Whorf!) Interesting to ask: What is the plural in each area? I've never liked "y'all's" and settled on "your all's" after reading it in All the Pretty Horses. It's also attested for speakers from the Intermountain West (and can be heard in the movie Napoleon Dynamite).
- As to the cocksure proclamations just above on "yous" being a "gramatical error" rather than a "conjunction" -- both your nebulous appeals to grammatical correctness and your point about dictionaries being secondary to usage would be better taken if you expressed them clearly, used technical terms in their precise senses, and spelled them correctly. I agree with what you have to say about real usage and the way it trumps the proclamations (self-important, and rarely accurate more than seven times in eight) of schoolmarms. But I don't see why "youse" is a less logical or less intelligible plural than "you all." (Is "we" a less logical plural than "me all"?) I don't see why actual, understood usage wouldn't make "youse" just as meaningful, useful, and "correct" as it makes "y'all." And I don't see why the talk page of an encyclopedia is a good place to make arbitrary pronouncements on the sad erroneousness of people who weren't raised where you were. (Dang those French! They've got a different word for everything! Must be a poor grasp of language. How sad.)
- OK, got that off my chest. Might be wise to delete it before I post. Naah. eritain 01:20, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
--- Yinz ---
"Yinz" is a form used in the Pittsburgh area. It is a Scotch/Irish term derived from "you ones". Pittsburghers refer to themselves as "yinzers" and there is even a local magazine _The New Yinzer_.
Where hast "thou" gone? Why did we stop using this logically essential term? It's lack leads to uneccesary and profound confusion. For example, a phone conversation with a store employee;
A: "Why did my account not get credited?"
E: "The money was never received"
A: "But I sent it to you"
E: "I did not receive it"
The obvious intent was second person plural, not singular. When Orwell speaks of changing language to change thought, this is what he meant. How did the individuals relation to society and other individuals change when "thou" went out of usage? Was it Descarte's fault?
---Regions---
"Thou is primarily unused in modern English apart from in some of the regional dialects of England"
can anyone add, which regions?
Thou and the Deity
Question: was "thou" used to address God because of the singular/plural distinction in Hebrew (as the article says in one place) or because God is supposed to be one's intimate (as it says in another place)? Or is there even linguistic consensus on this? I can easily see it being considered religiously incorrect to refer to the "one God" with a plural pronoun, while addressing God as an "intimate" seems a bit contrived to me. But, I am not a linguist. Gwimpey 09:21, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
- In languages that observe the T-V distinction, God is usually tu or du; at least He is in French. These languages do not have the number issues posed by the modern English invariant use of "you"; both forms are lively, and the intimate form is used for God.
- In actual English usage, thou is not felt as intimate and informal, but rather as a part of an archaizing, highfalutin' grand style. In the history of Bible translation, thou was used originally to convey the singular/plural difference; in a later version, thou was used exclusively to address God. Smerdis of Tlön 16:33, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Was used to reflect the singular/plural distinction (as literally translated from Hebrew and Greek); became a marker of the intimate/formal distinction (in religious as in secular usage); is used (sometimes misused) in frozen religious registers, poetry, and tacky archaism. Which IIRC is what the article says. eritain 00:55, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
equivalent to german formal address "sie"?
Q: Is there any equivalent to the german formal address "sie"? A: Yes, there is. It's "you" and its various forms. AlexR 14:07, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)