Talk:Thomas More
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An event mentioned in this article is a May 16 selected anniversary
Disagreed upon bits: ", as the king's lineage was, in his eyes, traceable directly to Jesus Christ, and should remain so."
What does this mean about lineage traceable to Jesus - if he got divorced his lineage would not change, nor would the lineage his children trace through him change if he got divorced. If we mean he future children would be illegimate because of the divorce, they would still have the same lineage, although they might not be eligible for kingship. Besides I was not aware that anyone -ever- beleived that Jesus had children. Certainly More as a Catholic wouldn't have beleived this. -rmhermen
- No, you can find esoteric speculation on this if you care to. It basically comes down to: It would have been unusual and worthy of note if a guy in Jesus' culture wasn't married; nobody notes this; therefore he was probably married. Mary Magdalene is usually given as the best candidate for Mrs. Jesus. (And the wedding at Cana, John 2:1 may be an account of Jesus' own.)
I've heard some people talk about the divine right of kings to rule, but that is not an issue of lineage, but rather about authority.
I think that must be a misunderstanding. Wasn't the issue that Henry VIII declared himself head of the church?
another issue: was More the 'inventor' of Utopian fiction? I know he gave us the word...--MichaelTinkler
There was Plato's Republic, of course, and there was the Greek myth of the Golden and the Silver age, which both have similarities to Utopian literature, and more surely had good knowledge of the Republic (studying in Oxford under the likes of Grocyn will do that to you). But as far as the term Utopian literature goes, Utopia was the first such piece of writing and thus, logically, lent its name to the genre. -- Bringa
uhhhh - Cardinal Wolsey was archbishop of York and papal legate of the Church in England pre-Oath of Supremacy, which still isn't quite "head of the church". I'm revising now. --MichaelTinkler
Michael, you've done a fantastic job helping this article along, but I have a question for you: the article says "which required all who should be called upon to take an oath (1) acknowledging the legitimacy," etc., which I misread twice. It seems to me to be worded in such a way that "all who are called upon to take an oath" must do something, when what you mean is "all who are (summoned to the king's court?) must take an oath affirming 1) and 2)." Does that make any sense? I'd change it except I'm not sure I understand what you mean and my entire knowledge of Thomas More comes from the (fantastic, IMHO) movie A Man for All Seasons. --Koyaanis Qatsi
yes, that does make sense, except that it wasn't necessarily the king's court. I know it was at Lambeth, which is the palace of the Archbishop of Canterbury, to take the oath. Hmmm. I love A Man for All Seasons, too (though lately it's come under a little criticism for making More a little toooo mid-century by-damn-I'm-an-independent-American kinda man). I'll look at it and revise.
"[Desiderius Erasmus]? dedicated his The Praise of Folly to More - the word "folly" is moria in Greek."
moria or moira?
- Moira = fate; Moria = foolishness.
Thanks.
Shouldn't the quotes section just link to Wikiquote (http://www.wikiquote.com)? There's already an entry for More there at http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_More . It would be even better if someone would add the two quotes we have here to there. --pie4all88 03:25, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well they do seem to pop up a lot. There are quotes under George Marshall and under Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma just off the top of my head. I think they add a nice bit of flavour to an article. Call me old fashioned. I mean by all means get rid of them but I don't think a couple of quotes at the bottom of a page do any harm. Obviously if there were twenty of them that might be another matter. Tricky one. --Mr impossible 23:26, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Wasn't it in 1534 (and not 1535) that More was called to sign the Act of Succession and the Act of Supremacy? If I remember correctly, he was jailed for fifteen months in the Tower prior to his execution. Also, I'm currently preparing a presentation on More's connections to the European circle of Humanists (Erasmus, Giles, Bude, Lupset, Busleiden...), but I really don't know how in-depth people want this More article here to be. It could do with some serious brushing up though; starting a More biography in his 50th year is surely not a good idea. -- Bringa
More as Traitor?
- Um, a categorization of this article made me twitch reflexively. How is More classified as a traitor? --Penta 22:16, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Non-Christian Utopia
The page describes More's Utopia as non-Christian. It's been years since I read it, but as I recall the Utopians were converted to Christianity by the crew of a European ship that had strayed there. I'll check. Paul B 12.08 15 March 2005 (UTC)
- nope. I'm wromng. They are in the process of being converted... Paul B 12.24 15 March (UTC)
Henry VIII's divorce
The article states " Pope Julius II had issued a formal dispensation from the biblical injunction against a man marrying his brother's widow. ". That is inaccurate. The dispensation was issued because the marriage was not consumated. Queen Isabella said that her daughter was a virgin. The Pope accepted this. - and, of course thats why it would have been politically difficult to agree to Henry's divorce, it would mean calling Isabella a liar. --ClemMcGann 16:21, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)