Talk:Sunderland
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Status
I think Sunderland's sheer size was the basis for its gaining city status.
A quesion like this must come from a Novocastrian. Is this fine Parliamentary City being denigrated by a citizen of that Royalist Tyneside hamlet. We whose fame and wealth derive from the honest toil of our worthy citizens and a love of Lord Protector Cromwell and not royal monopolies? :) garryq 12:17, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Flying Boats
I'm pretty sure that Sunderland was the last name of one of the developers of the sunderland flying boat. I can't find any source other than Wikipedia, indicating that the craft was named after the city of Sunderland. (I remember my grandfather telling me stories about meeting Sunderland in a restauraunt by chance after the war.) Could someone verify the origin of the name for the Sunderland. Is there another amphibious aircraft with the name of Sunderland? Sennheiser! 17:42, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I posted this question to rec.aviation.military and got a response: [1] (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&edition=us&threadm=n7nVb.9874%24P32.1383%40news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsunderland%2B%2B%2522named%2Bafter%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26edition%3Dus%26selm%3Dn7nVb.9874%2524P32.1383%2540news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk%26rnum%3D1) Here is an abridged version of the response i got:
> > "Edward Senft" < wrote in message > I'm pretty sure that Sunderland was the > last name of > > one of the designers of the sunderland flying boat. I > > can't find any source other than a Wikipedia article > > concerning the origin of the name. This article indicates that > > that the craft was named after the city of Sunderland. I believe this > > is incorrect, however. (I remember my grandfather telling me stories > > about > > meeting Sunderland and talking about the flying boat he designed.) > > Could someone verify the origin of the name for the Sunderland. Thank > > you for your time! > > > > Edward Senft > > Short named its aircraft after cities, i.e. > Singapore, Sunderland, Seaford,Stirling > Close. Brit Flying boats of the time were named after "Coastal towns and seaports of the British Empire". Alliterative names were preferred, and if there was indeed a Mr Sunderland on the design team, then I wouldn't be that surprised. Officially, it would be after the town. A quick google didn't bring up any mention of a Mr Sunderland at Short however, and it is the sort of thing that you would expect to get mentioned in passing.
Sunderland and County Durham
As the convention notes Tyne & Wear exists as a county I haved changed "urban area" to "metropolitan County".
The city cannot be in two counties, so I have changed "is part of the traditional county" to "was part of the traditional county".
I have tidied the attempt to describe a part of the city and its population.
I have also changed "metropolitan borough" to "metropolitan district". The UK Local Government Act 1972 created "districts". Urban areas could petition the Queen to become known as boroughs or cities, as appropriate. Thus Sunderland was known as a Borough from 1974-1992, and a City since then. Metropoolitan district thus covers areas with disparate nomenclature.
I want to put a copy of the City's coat of arms on this page. Any objections? I'm sure no permission is needed to display the arms, unless its done so as to make it appear that wikipedia is the City of Sunderland :) Nevertheless I have asked the City Solicitor for permission, as the photograph may be seperately copyright.
garryq 23:44, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC) aka Me (http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/Pages/Councillors/CInfo.asp?Cid=331)
- "Was in the traditional county" makes no sense. Sunderland was in the administrative county of Durham, but it remains in the traditional county. Places can certainly be in more than one "county" - a fact evidenced by the frequent (and necessary) distinction between 'ceremonial counties' and 'administrative counties' made in many other articles (and not by me!). Traditional, administrative, ceremonial and registration counties are all completely different entities, and naturally they are not necessarily the same for any given town or city.
- I conceed that 'Tyne and Wear' technically wasn't abolished, so I have linked metropolitan county. 80.255 17:08, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I disagree. The "traditional" County Durham is not an area that exists of itself. It is merely a term that describes the county before 1974. Despite the claims of the ABC, that county has ceased to exist. Thus, Sunderland was part of county Durham; it is now part of Tyne and Wear County. The fact that the feudal system relied on natural features for boundaries does not give the old counties immortality. Almost all counties came existence as administrative counties. Cornwall, a Celtic nation, is an exception, but perhaps the village pump is a better place to discuss that concept for the whole of England. Claiming that the frequent (and necessary) distinction between 'ceremonial counties' and 'administrative counties' made in many other articles confirms your contention that "traditional" County Durham exists and can be described in the present tense is either incomplete or worthless. Again, an argument I am developing to discuss elsewhere, rather than restrict it to this City's page. garryq 11:44, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Whether you like it or not, the traditional county of Durham (such that was used for administrative purposes prior to 1888) has never been abolished. Hence it exists (as all legal entities that have never been abolished do, de jure). The term "traditional county" does not refer to pre-1974 administrative boundaries - these were administrative counties - different entities in their own right (which 1888 legislation explicitly implied co-existed with historic (of "ancient") counties) that differed in many respects from the historic counties with which they shared a name. If you want to refer to 1888-1974 administrative boundaries, then write 1888-1974 administrative counties - don't write trdaitional/historic counties because the boundaries of these are not the same! 80.255 00:16, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Moving
Why exacly has this been moved from 'Sunderland' to 'City of Sunderland' no other page about a city has been moved like this. G-Man 11:33, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- There is another settlement (a tiny village) called "Sunderland" in Northumberlamd, although I hardly think it merits the main article space. However, if Sunderland is technically now called "City of Sunderland" and the article should carry this name. 80.255 00:20, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I moved it because there are several other Sunderlands - along with North Sunderland, Sunderland Bridge etc. They do not warrant individual articles, although I should get an article on them combined, then change the redirect to a first sentence reference. garryq 09:25, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well surely anyone looking up 'Sunderland' is by far most likely to mean the city in the North East rather than any other place called Sunderland. If there are other places called Sunderland then you should set up a disambiguation page and link it to the main Sunderland article. G-Man 22:08, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Old County Durham is no more
No matter what the traditionalists and apologists of the ABC et al think, the traditional County Durham does not exist. References to it in the present tense are senseless. The item I have reverted today had to stand logic, and previous claims, on their head in order to push this antediluvian view, not only made this present tense reference but inserted a mention of the administrative county.
Sunderland was not administered by County Durham. So was not part of the administrative county.
The absolute right to decide these boundaries rests with the Queen-in-Parliament. Anything else must be in the past. Are we to abandon fact for a refusal to admit changes happen? Are we now to refer to Monmouthshire in Wales, in the traditional borders of England? Is or was Danzig in Germany? Sunderland is in the United Kingdom, which still exists as a legal entity, is in Great Britain, which still exists as a legal entity, is in England, which still exists as a legal entity, it was in The Kingdom of Northumbria, which no longer exists, and it was County Durham, which no longer exists in its previous form.
- Please sign your comments. Whether Danzig is part of germany is determined by law; you rightly observe that it is not currently. Similarly the status of the counties is determined by law. The law has been very clear in never abolishing them. This is nothing to do with being "anti-change" - but simply accepting the fact that entities that have never been abolished continue to exist, de jure! Queen and parliament have many times stated that the traditional counties have never been abolished. Although it is true that such statements are not legally binding on their own, do you really believe that they were all deliberate lies?
- Further, please see my responses at talk:Gloucestershire. Best regards, 80.255 23:53, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Population/Alice in Wonderland
With the incorporation in 1992 and award of city status Sunderland's population stands at 295,000 making it the largest city in the North East.
Some mention should be made of the substantial links between Sunderland and the Dobson family that inspired the Alice in Wonderland stories.
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Garryq, I have rearranged the piece, added and amended. I hope you approve. I'll be back to tidy up after my brain has had a rest.I have included information about Lewis Carroll. I'm not sure I've come across the Dobsons in the literature about Carroll at Whitburn Emmet 19.08 10 June 2005
Later: I've done my bit. I think Sunderland football club fits in here. The rest mostly consists of minor, but interesting I hope, additions. I think it's amazing that a woman like Gertrude Bell doesn't get her due. She was anti-suffragette, perhaps that's why. She was a friend of Lawrence of Arabia and practically founded modern Iraq. The great museum in Baghdad so much in the news was founded by her. I'll have to write it myself. All good wishes.
Emmet 13.54 12 June 2005
I've just realised that Gertrude Bell is in - under that name.
Emmet 15.17 12 June 2005