Talk:Space opera

The latest version corresponds to definition of space opera inthe Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (and others). Barsoom series is more like a combination of Heroic Fantasy and Planetary Romance Skysmith

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Attempting to keep the Neutral point of view in the entry.

It's popular stuff. Most people think it's fun. It has a venerable history.

It bugs some sci-fi pedants. Even many of them don't mind putting the mind on hold and having some fun with it once in a while.

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It's not easy to distinguish from soft science fiction, since it ostensibly deals with some human consequence of (vaguely defined) technologies. The only difference seems to be that space opera is lightweight, in literary terms.

Soft sci-fi is different in its attitude to science, though. Soft sci-fi either concentrates on areas of science other than physics, or simply plays it down. Space opera ignores it completely to fit in with the special effects budget, IMHO. --Robert Merkel

To be considered space opera as distinguished from soft SF, a work ought to have an identifiably operatic element about it, either in style or structure. Not just character-oriented drama, over-the-top character-oriented drama. 18.24.0.120

Those who consider Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky and similar works to be "new space opera" would disagree with all the above points. This work, and similar works often labeled "space opera" are not "lightweight" by intention, nor by the views of many readers and critics. Nor are this and similar works entirely "soft" SF. Certinlay such works do not simply ignore scientific realities.

Personally i would not call such works "space opera". I would reserve that label for works with shallow characterization, and no serious attention to the scientific reality behind their gimmics. I would disqualify anything with a literary level higher than E.E. Smith's classic lensman series from the 'space opera" level. This position is a minority one, however. DES 16:06, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

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Does this article include written space opera, like "The Reality Dysfunction" by Peter F. Hamilton? --Magnus Manske

Yes, the Lensman series is print space opera... of course there is Aniara to consider, which is actually a space opera, I believe,

Yes the term was first used for written works, and is still frequently used in that connection. The main other use is in connection with movies, such as Star Wars which is a space opera by almost anyone's defination. Note that the term comes through "Horse Opera" (which was used for radio and written westerns) and "Soap opera", and the connection with the musical sense of "opera" is thus more remote. A good recent example might be the Honor Harrignton series by David Webber. DES 16:06, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

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Hi, I found what I think is a really good space opera "grading scale" (from Ultra-Hard to Very-Soft) at this site: [1] (http://www.orionsarm.com/books/grading.html) Do you think it should be incorporated? - At18 09:38 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps it should go to the general science fiction article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:22, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Changed The Heroic Legend of Arslan to Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Same author but Arslan is historical, not SF.

James White

I think that his Sector General series is a space opera. Although it concerns only one place (space hospital) and has few battles, I think it passes the overall definition test. Do you agree? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:02, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

New Space Opera

The talk about "new space opera" is very vague. What is "new space opera"? This wikipedia article doesn't tell me (4-15-05) and it's probably bogus anyway. Are there any references? Anywhere on the Internet that someone has proposed this term?

(The above was posted by User:Lousyd)

This term is frequently used in online discussion of science fiction (for example in the usenet group rec.arts.sf.written). It is generally used to refer to works that have the wide or cosmic scope and feel of such classic works of space opera as the Lensman series, but attempt greater and deeper character development, and have more literary asperations in general. The classic examples are A fire Upon the Deep and A Deepness in the Sky by Vernor Vinge. but there are many other works of this sort. Such works are generally plot-driven, as classic space opera is, and try to evoke some of the same "sense of wonder" but attempt higher quality of writing skill and greater literary pretensions. Some would put the work of Lois M. Bujold in the same category. Others would cite C. J. Cherryh.

Personally I find the term almost an oxymoron. I feel that works of high literary quality are, by definition, not space opera. Many people disagree with this view. DES 16:06, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

As one of the many people who disagree, I'll say this... Character-driven plots would seem to differentiate 'new' space-opera from the older space-opera. I think quite a lot of high-quality literature is based on character-driven plots, or uses deep characterization. Absence of hard science might differentiate new space-opera from hard sci-fi, but I don't really see why this would mean it couldn't be literature. Many people consider Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, whose setting is fantastic, to be literature. Stories like Kafka's Metamorphosis are totally unrealistic, and yet are widely accepted as high-quality literature. I'm not saying that there have been any high-quality literature 'new' space-operas yet, but I don't see any reason why it would "by definition" be impossible. WhiteC 00:54, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

To be clear, I like much of the stuff that some people label "new space opera", I just dislike the term. In fact I think that Vinge et. al. is considerably better written than Smith, and I prefer it. I don't argue that such works are not literature. (However, IMO, most works labeled as "new space opera" are still plot-driven, not character driven. Bujold may be an exception, but thsoe of her works most often so labeld are precisely those least character-driven, particularly The Vor Game.

I want to keep the term "space opera" as a term of abuse, or at least a term descriptive of fluff like Star Wars, so I would cap its use at about the literary level of the lensman books, using a different term for the stuff some call "new space opera". That said, there are some similaities between "new space opera" and classic space opera, which the related terms highllight. If people would always use "new space opera" as a new, related term, and not consider it a subset of "space opera" I would have far less problem with it. I think that the wider usage is broadening the term "space opera" until it is not of much use, that is all.

In short I am not arguing that wide-scope or "cosmic" works of SF can not have high literary standards, I am arguing that any work that has such standards is not "space opera" because part of the defination of "space opera" is (or IMO should be) precisely the absence of such standards. DES 01:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)