Talk:Self-determination

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duplicate with Self determination

This isn't true.....

The UN Charter has been invoked to help resolve a myriad of conflicts from Kosovo to East Timor and in cases of ethnic strife or genocide, the oppressed are usually granted a reprieve from the oppressors and the right for self-determination out weighs the right to national integrity.

No.....

Despite the intervention, Kosovo is still nominally part of Yugoslavia and this legal situation exists precisely because because self-determination does *not* overrule the right to territorial integrity. The fact that Yugoslavia *still* is considered the sovereign power over Kosovo despite having absolutely no administrative control over it illustrates how seriously people take territorial integrity.

In the case of East Timor, the UN was involved only after Indonesia consented to a plebiscite on East Timorese independence, and again it illustrates how the right to territorial integrity outweighs self-determination.

You can also list a whole bunch of other cases, Somaliland, Northern Cyprus, the Kurdish areas of Iraq, North Ossetia, etc. etc. etc.

oops..my bad...but I'd say territorial integrity oughtweighs self determination when the government claiming integrity is the acting authority of the region in question.

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Quebec hasn't been denied a request to have a plebiscite, there have been three referenda on some form of independence already and they've all failed. There are some interested issues regarding self-determination which the Canadian Supreme Court has ruled on.

An interesting example of an ethnic and cultural minority denied the right to self-determination is the French Canadians of Quebec. Quebec has repeatedly requested a plebiscite on independence, but has been denied. The law is in Canada's favor as Quebec currently, and has historically been subordinate to the government of Canada.

Independence?

The article currently says, "In most cases there is an ethnic or religious minority seeking independence from a majority to escape prejudice or persecution." I do not think this is accurate. Ethnic and religious minorities seek varying degrees of autonomy, and they often seek some kind of recognized status, but they do not necessarily seek independence. For example, the Roma seek (and in many cases have received) recognition in most Eastern European countries, but I am unaware of any movement to form an independent Roma state; many, perhaps most, Catalans prefer cutural autonomy within Spain to Catalan independence; Native American nations living within the U.S. are all concerned with sovereignty and recognition, but very few seek complete independence from the U.S. federal government. I'm sure I could pile on the examples, if needed, but my point is simply that self-determination is not necessarily about independence, it's about democratic choice and recognized status as a people. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:10, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

A bit of a hash

This article seems to me to be a bit of a hash: more like notes for an article than an actual article. I get the sense of two (or more) subtly warring points of view and not much actual research. This would be a good one for someone with serious scholarly skills and some time on their hands to revisit. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:14, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

POV Disputation

The passive voice of so many critical phrases is the first clue that this article has serious POV problems. Another clue is that "the principle" of self determination is distinct from the phrase "self determination" or its articulaton as such but all those are conflated. The history of the principle of self determination is objectively as old as human social organization itself. Finally, Woodrow Wilson's "southern heritage" being addressed at such length -- amounts to little more than an ad hominem attack on the concept and principle of self determination. The fact that all of these violations of clarity and accuracy point to a devaluation of self determination makes a strong case that the article needs a complete rewite.

Jim Bowery 18:47, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)