Talk:Pretender

A pretender is someone who has never been on the throne and is claiming it. A deposed monarch is not classed as a pretender, but when they die, their heir is classed as one. STÓD/ÉÍRE 02:53 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

That's really broken table markup. -- Anon.

Maria Pia Saxe Coburg Bragança (and not Hilda Toledano that was only a pseudonym in salazar fascist period)was daugther of The King Charles of Portugal and so after the death of her half-brother Manuel she became the Duchess of BragançA to the will of her Father.About the name of Maria Pia of Bragança you can see the family tree of Royal House of Bragança in one of the most important historical portuguese encyclopedia named “Història de Portugal” Vol. III of A.H. de Oliveira Marques (page 112-113) and you can see the name Maria Pia (born 1907) ,daughter of the King Carlos, in sketched line because She was still alive when this volume was published and indicated as pretender to portuguese throne. The web page with pages of this encyclopedia are: and This is one of the most portuguese historical source. The name Hilda Toledano was only a pseudonym in a fascist period. This is the Truth.

Manuel de Sousa

Should there be something on this page about the Jacobites (James Stuart - The Old Pretender, and Bonnie Prince Charlie - the Young Pretender)? maybe with links, as these both have entries? -- Anon.

Why is Otto von Habsburg listed here? He has renounced all claims to the thrones of Austria and Hungary. 193.64.7.9 17:38, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Should we maybe change the name of the page or create a new one so that we can include people like von Habsburg? - Nat Krause 07:24, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It seems that I've mess the table up, when last adding two new sections. Can anyone fix the table up and put it up to the top of the page. Charles Said-Vassallo 7.51pm 5-11-04. (EST)

What a mess this page is - it describes heirs to thrones in which there have been thrones overthrown (legally or illegally) as pretenders, which is not the case and there is much international law which can argue on such issues much more closely.

A proper legal definition of a "pretender" will be appended soon in this area.

Writers as well should bear in mind libel and slander issues in this area as defining a rightful heir to a throne as a fictitious claimant is an invitation to a civil suit in some jurisdictions.

Please note Wikipedia official policy: Wikipedia:No legal threats

Writers should bear in mind that pretensions to thrones in some jurisdictions can result in criminal liabilities. 66.60.159.190 18:38, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Pretender of doubtful authenticity" ?? Who assert this? Mr Jtdirl or Mr Jess Cully(probably miguelist supporter)?? At the contrary, many Tribunal of Sovereign States had sentenced in favour of HRH Dom Rosario and of his rights. See: http://www.theroyalhouseofportugal.org/html/lodo.htm Manuel

Manuel, don't start all this stuff again. I've reverted and changed the headline to Pretender of debated authenticity which is more NPOV. The person you are claiming is the heir to the Portuguese throne is not universally accepted. His status is subject to debate, hence the category. Don't start pushing his claims again here. People have already made it clear Wikipedia is not going to rule him as the legitimate heir, merely state that he makes a claim and it is debated. FearÉIREANN\^(talk) 22:28, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Only a sentence of a tribunal of a Sovereign State can decide if a right of pretension exist or not. In this case already three Tribunals of Sovereign State(San Marino,Italy and Rumania) have decided about the legitimacy of the Dom Rosario rights concerning his pretense as Head of the Royal House of Portugal(constitutional line , at the contrary of the miguelist line excluded perpetually of the succession from the last Monarchic Constitution of 1838). These Courts have decided regarding the official documentation both Vatican State and Italy State about the legitimacy of Dona Maria Pia and so of her successor Dom Rosario. So when you discuss if a preteder have or not the right to be defined pretender (and a right can be demonstrated only by a competent tribunal ) you should consider at least all the official documentation of this pretender and not only the other talk or your personal considerations. Manuel