Talk:Polycarp
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However, few scholars today maintain that the Fourth Gospel was written by one of the Twelve.
- It is very non-obvious to me how this sentence relates to the subject of this article. Could you please expand? --Brion
Before my correction, the article stated as a fact that John, one of the Twelve, wrote the so-called Gospel of John. This cannot be maintained. See e.g. Raymond E. Brown's two-volume commentary on that gospel (1970ff) in the prestigious Anchor Bible series.
S.
- No it didn't. It stated:
- Polycarp was a Christian bishop of Smyrna in the first and second centuries. He is generally recognized as a saint in both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. He was a disciple of John the Evangelist, who was one of the first twelve Apostles. One of his disciples was Ignatius of Antioch.
- I don't see anything there about who wrote what gospels, by name or by number. --Brion
Please look at John the Evangelist.
It is true that in e.g. Roman Catholic liturgy the two "Johns" are regarded as one and the same person. But that has little to do with scientific (Church) history.
S.
- Shouldn't that note go in John the Evangelist, then? I still haven't the foggiest idea what it's doing in this article. --Brion
Sorry, I didn't put the note there: it was there, stating the matter as a fact. My contribution was just to point out that it is tradition, not historical fact.
If we are to continue this debate, it would help if you would make your personal opinion clear to me.
S.
- I have no opinion at all on the matter; virtually everything I know about the early history of Christianity comes from having seen Jesus Christ Superstar. Since the purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform the uninformed, consider me the ideal test audience. :) I find this part of the article to be a complete non-sequitur. Allow me to break it down bit by bit, using the current version:
Polycarp was a Christian bishop of Smyrna in the first and second centuries.
- Polycarp was a bishop in a place called Smyrna, in the relatively early days of Christianity (first century or so after Christ)
He is generally recognized as a saint in both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.
- Polycarp is considered a saint by several major denominations.
According to tradition, he was a disciple of John the Evangelist, who was one of the first twelve Apostles.
- Tradition says that Polycarp was a disciple of John the Evangelist.
- further detail: John the Evangelist was one of the first twelve apostles.
However, few scholars today maintain that the Fourth Gospel was written by one of the Twelve.
- Fourth Gospel? What the heck are you talking about? What does this have to do with Polycarp, or Polycarp's being a disciple of John the Evangelist, or John the Evangelist's being one of the twelve?
One of Polycarp's disciples was Ignatius of Antioch.
- Polycarp had a disciple, named Ignatius of Antiooch.
- Born: 69
- Died: 155
Surviving writings include The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians. Also surviving is an account of The Martyrdom of Polycarp.
- Polycarp wrote these two documents which are still extant.
As you can see, I'm quite thrown by a sudden mention that some numbered gospel's authorship is disputed, and thought not to have been written by one of the twelve. Why should I, reader of an article on Polycarp, care about whether the fourth gospel was written by one of the first twelve apostles, possibly John? How does whether John the Evangelist (or someone else) wrote the 4th gospel relate to the sentence "According to tradition, [Polycarp] was a disciple of John the Evangelist, who was one of the first twelve Apostles." --Brion
Sorry Brion, - It seems to me that you lack the most elementary knowledge about the New Testament. I have not the time or energy to explain these matters here. Please do what you like with the Polycarp article.
Sinverely yours S.
- Well then, I'm removing the sentence in question until somebody who is interested in making comprehensible encyclopedia articles can explain why it belongs there. --Brion
Quote:
S: However, few scholars today maintain that the Fourth Gospel was written by one of the Twelve.
Brion: *Fourth Gospel? What the heck are you talking about? What does this have to do with Polycarp, or Polycarp's being a disciple of John the Evangelist, or John the Evangelist's being one of the twelve?
End Quote
My understanding (and guessing) of the sentence probably is that the Fourth Gospel here is the Gospel of John, the author of which can be either of the following three:
- John the Evangelist, traditional view.
- one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus Christ, an alternative of the traditional view, probably what S. meant by saying "few scholars today maintain that...."
- a disciple of John the Evangelist, most likely Polycarp.