Talk:Oscar Wilde
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- This article is part of WikiProject Poetry. See that page for further information.
- This article is part of WikiProject Irish literature. See that page for further information.
An event mentioned in this article is a May 24 selected anniversary.
This page has been vandalised - now is it restored to a previous version
Ask and ye shall receive! Just go to the previous good version, click "edit" then click "save". But I've done it already. I suspect it was an accident rather than actual malice. Jeremy
The entry says "He was convicted on May 25, 1895 of "sodomy and gross indecency" and sentenced to serve two years hard labor in a London prison. There he wrote the famous poem The Ballad of Reading Gaol", but http://www.cmgww.com/historic/wilde/owbio.html says "Upon his release, Oscar wrote The Ballad of Reading Gaol, a response to the agony he experienced in prison."... so, which version is correct? 216.52.229.254 02:26, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- (I.e., did he write it while in prison, or after having been released from prison?) A5 02:37, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- He did, however, write De Profundus while in Reading Gaol. Unless I remember incorrectly. Lizzie 19:46, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It seems that he wrote it after having left Redding Gaol; I changed it accordingly.
| Contents |
Subheadings
I've broken up the existing text with a series of subheadings, to create some structure. More is needed on Wilde's family, his homosexual relationships, and his literary works, considered both within the circumstances of his life, as well as in the larger context which he occupies as a major literary figure. -- The Anome 13:43, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
:I hope to add more on his early life and family and a more complete bibliography. Filiocht 15:46, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Cribbing
So did we crib without credit from [1] (http://www.interactivepoets.com/picmo_544_dir_pag13876_2613544_1.html), or did they crib without credit from us? Or did both use a common source? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:55, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
- Looking at the page history, it looks like they cribbed us early this year? Filiocht 09:43, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Links in bibliography
Filiocht, I notice you removed all the links from the bibliography. Yes, these works are referenced in the article, but it seems to me a convenience for anyone trying to find one of Wilde's works to get a set of links from the bibliography. Do you have any actual objection to this? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:29, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
Tomb
Could someone who is in Paris take a photo of Wilde's tomb? It's rather impressive. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:32, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
- There is a good picture of the tomb on the page for Pere Lachaise right here at Wikipedia. Being new to these pages I don't know what would be the best thing to do. Transfer a copy of the picture to this page or create an internal link to it other than the one that is already there for the cemetary. I will let you decide.MarnetteD | Talk 21:56, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Political Beliefs
I've heard that Wilde was an anarchist. Did he ever write anything political, or does anyone know more about his ideas in this regard? --Tothebarricades.tk 01:46, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I don't think he was exactly an anarchist. He wasn't the most political person, although his politics were definitely on the left (despite his dandyism and social climbing). You might want to look at his essay "The Soul of Man" (http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext97/slman10h.htm), also known as "The Soul of Man Under Socialism." -- Jmabel | Talk 05:42, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
It may seem wilful to lead a selection of Oscar Wilde's major critical prose with an essay on left-wing politics, but 'The Soul of Man under Socialism' is more concerned with aesthetics than ethics: Wilde found socialism 'beautiful' because it encouraged freedom and individualism, freeing man to develop his emotional and imaginative lives. Wilde's Utopian scheme, as he admits, is gloriously impractical and contrary to human nature, but that's the point - it's because reforms are based on what is considered practical, rather than what might be possible or even unthinkable, that inequality and suffering persist. His vision of a future in which men dream and absorb Art as vaguely-imagined machines do all the menial work, reads like a delightful lampoon of HG Wells. Favourite Quotations: 'the moment that an artist takes notice of what other people want and tries to supply the demand, he ceases to be an artist and becomes a dull or amusing craftsman, an honest or dishonest tradesman' "Art is the most intense mode of individualism that the world has known.").--Stratofortress 15:47, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Saint Sebastian: "The Cursed Wanderer"?
I reverted the following recent anonymous change pending a citation "He went under the assumed name of 'Sebastian Melmoth', after Saint Sebastian: "The Cursed Wanderer," as well as the central character of the gothic novel Melmoth the Wanderer." The bolded portion was inserted; I reverted it. If there is any basis for it, it probably should be in the article, but it would be news to me, and on the basis of what I see this seems just as likely to be vandalism as a useful edit. Google search on "Saint Sebastian" + "The Cursed Wanderer" produces nothing. Got a citation? Great, then I'll be glad to see it restored. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:44, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
- I think that things have gotten a little mixed here. The Melmoth part of the name, as you state, comes the novel "Melmoth the Wanderer" which was written by Oscar's grand uncle, on his mother's side, the Reverend Charles Maturin. Melmoth was a mysterious, satanic hero who was cursed to roam the earth. The Sebastian comes from Saint Sebastian whose youthful body was pierced with arrows. The most famous painting of him is by Guido Reni, which Wilde saw, and commented on, during his trip to Italy when he was 21. I have never heard Sebastian referred to as the "Cursed Wanderer". He is, however, for a variety of reasons, the favorite saint of the gay community. Yukio Mishima, in his autobiographical novel "Confessions of a Mask", claims to have been greatly effected by this painting as a young man. I mention this because it is one of several things that are interesting to compare and contrast in the lives of these two extraordinary authors. MarnetteD 04:23, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Lord Alfred Douglas
afaik, Bosie wasn't just Wilde's nickname for him, but a general nickname? --little Alex 14:46, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)
Footer
- Oscar Wilde/Endicia - making footer link for template. -==SV 04:56, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Oscar Wilde/Biblio - making footer link for template. -==SV 04:56, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Why? This seems annoying, harder for people to edit without serious expertise in how things work (e.g. I would guess that half of our editors couldn't find the bibliography page to edit it), follows no standard that I am familiar with, and seems to violate the rule against subpages. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:21, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)
- I understand that it was a change, and was not entirely sure if most people would like it. It had not occured to me that people would find it hard to find the link or edit these, since I included them above. I was not aware of policy, because I have'nt written any policy lately. ;) -==SV 20:39, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Last words
The article say his last words are often given as "My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or other of us has got to go." That is a rather clumsy version of what I've heard: "Either that wallpaper goes or I do." Is there a citation for either version? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:46, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
- I've always heard your version, but never seen a source given. Note that Wikiquote has the (unsourced) version given in the article. Filiocht 14:59, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
- One of the last days that Wilde was able to leave his rooms was October 29th, 1900. Robert Ross took him to a cafe where he drank absinthe. He said to his friend Claire de Pratz "My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or the other of us has to go." The main source for this is Ellman's biography, where he cites de Pratz reminiscences to G. de Saix and Harris' biography. While it is a wonderful, Wildean, idea that these were his last words Wilde did not die until November 30th. The letters of Reggie Turner and Robert Ross describe the harrowing last few days of Oscar's life are quoted in full in Holland and Davis' massive "The Complete Letters of Oscar Wilde" MarnetteD 03:38, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"gay" or "homosexual"
I notice that "homosexual" was recently changed to "gay". That strikes me as an anachronism. Rather than simply revert, I'd like to see if we have any consensus. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:14, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
- Homosexual is an offensive term. Many dictionary usage guides warn against such language. I can provide links if you wish. Homosexual is one the same level as nigger, engine, and negro. I don't see us writing articles on Negro History so therefore I suggest we follow the dictionary usage guides on homosexual. Apollomelos 10:20, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- "Engine"? I have never heard this term applied to a human. What are you talking about?
- The analogy to "negro" is legitimate, the analogy to "nigger" is not. "Homosexual" was, like "negro", the prevailing and acceptable term within living memory.
- I would argue that "gay" is a cultural term, and its application before a certain point in history is, well, writing history backwards, reading the present into the past. It relates to an identity that only began to emerge in the late 1960s. And I speak as someone who hung out in the West Village at that time. It's not as inappropriate in Wilde's case as in some, because he is a clear precursor to that identity. Still, in the context in which it comes up in this article—"Wilde's sexual orientation has variously been considered bisexual or gay" or "Wilde's sexual orientation has variously been considered bisexual or homosexual"—I think "homosexual" the correct word, considering the period in question, is "homosexual". It is about sexual identity (in practice, he clearly had sex with persons of both sexes), and these were the ones that would have had meaning in his time; in fact, even these were quite new constructs, superseding the horribly offensive "Sodomite" (or for an idiot like the Marquess of Queensbury, "Somdomite"). -- Jmabel | Talk 20:16, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Normally I'm against using 'gay' too far back in history, but in Wilde's case I don't really think its a problem. -Seth Mahoney 20:57, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
FYI, I believe that "homosexual" was also coined after Wilde's death, so the issue of "gay" being more anachronistic is moot. -Willmcw 20:57, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)- The term dates from the late 1860s. See Homosexual#Etymology. It had been around for an entire generation at the time of Wilde's trial. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:47, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
- I stand corrected. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:24, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
- It is my opinion that "homosexual" should be used in place of "gay". As I have always known it, homosexual is a clinical term, numerous works of queer theory, history, etc. use it in their titles and as a homosexual, I have never taken offense to it, nor have I known anyone who would. (Indeed, the Wikipedia entry on Gay discusses on the history of the word itself unlike the entry on homosexuality which discusses the sexuality.) "Gay" on the other hand is too modern to describe Wilde and the word also has modern connotations. Therefore it is anachronistic. Ganymead 07:20, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The terms "gay" and "homosexual" both have the same meanings in the dictionary. A man who has sex with another man. However the term "homosexual" is clearly marked as offensive. I mean if we were saying he was carrying around a rainbow flag I could see the problem. And it was clear he was involved in the "homosexual" sub-culture therefor the term "gay" is better because "homosexual" is usually reserved for sexual aspects. Apollomelos 01:12, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- When you cite "the dictionary", please say what dictionary.
- Again, this is a matter of connotations in the relevant chronological period. I agree that Wilde is enough of a prototype of what emerged as a "gay" identity that the word is relatively unproblematic in talking about him, but in general, when writing about the 1890s, that word is anachronistic. "Gayness" is not just a matter of sexual acts, it is a matter of identity. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:51, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
- For the record, 'homosexual' does not mean a man who has sex with another man. -Seth Mahoney 23:24, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
I would dispute the assertion made above that "gay" is a purely cultural term. Not only is it the more neutral term to describe a homosexual it is also the more common term. It's usage in this page is not anachronistic - this is a contemporary encyclopaedia. We do not, for example, write the pages on Medieval history in Middle English, for example. --Axon 09:31, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- Would you say that Socrates was gay? If so, then so was Wilde. But "gay" to me has cultural overtones that should restrict it to refer only to 20th c. and later practices. "Homosexual" seems a much more general term (it is even applied to animals) and includes a host of homosexualities, including gay culture. As for Wilde's being a precursor to gay culture, I think that most gays would demur when confronted with his preference for youths, and the importance he himself placed on an age difference. If anything, he is a successor to classical pederasty. Haiduc 10:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- Wilde was clearly more similar to the modern gay person than was Socrates, let's get that much clear. Obviously, he's not the same sort of gay that we mean when we use the word 'gay' today, but similar issues come up when describing him as homosexual - as you note, he appears to be a successor to classical pederasty more than he appears homosexual in the way most of us use the term today. I don't see a sharp line there, though. There are gay men today who prefer intergenerational relationships (though, for legal reasons, perhaps not "youths") who are, regardless of who thinks what about who they have sex with, gay. There are also similarities between Wilde and the contemporary gay man that are lost when the word 'homosexual' is used. Let me put it this way: While Socrates would likely find himself lost in modern gay culture, chances are that Wilde would not. -Seth Mahoney 19:16, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
In Wilde's case the term "gay" is both anachronistic and misleading; "gay" not only implies some sort of politics and specific identity, it only came into common use fairly recently. On the other hand, "homosexual" is both potentially offensive and probably not strictly correct in Wilde's case. Both "gay" and "homosexual" suggest and imply exclusivity of attraction; Wilde was married to a woman with whom he had several children. By all accounts he was in love with her and was much distressed to lose her. If anything, a good case could be made (indeed, such a case has been made) for Wilde being bisexual, but that term wouldn't be strictly satisfactory either. Let's focus on what the man did rather than what we think he was. Exploding Boy 22:42, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Points taken, though "'gay ... implies some sort of politics"? That one I doubt. Anyhow, what is your proposal regarding what Wilde did sexually, since there is obviously interest at least in who he did it with? -Seth Mahoney 00:28, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
Without going into detail about "politics," if we can provide specific information about Wilde's sexual partners, so much the better for the article. But we don't need to state categorically that he was "this" or "that." Exploding Boy 02:29, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think "politics" is quite the right word, but how about "cultural identity"? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:20, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
- What exactly does "gay" imply as a cultural identity? I'm as mystified by that as I am by the idea that it implies a certain specific political outlook. Bearcat 14:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
- This is not an easily answered question, but widespread use of the term "gay" dates from the period in which "gay liberation" was replacing the "homophile movement", and a call for acceptance by society at large and pride from within the gay community superseded a call for mere toleration by society at large and self-acceptance within the community. I could go on, but it's about midnight where I am right now, and I'm about to call it a night; if someone else wants to expand on this (hey, maybe someone who is gay?), great. If not, I hope to get back to this, but (sorry, sincerely) I have not been fully able to keep up with my watchlist lately, and my crunch will get worse long before it getss better. - Jmabel | Talk 06:59, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
- What exactly does "gay" imply as a cultural identity? I'm as mystified by that as I am by the idea that it implies a certain specific political outlook. Bearcat 14:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Wilde's picture
The first picture of Wilde, the one directly opposite the table of contents, looks horribly distorted. Is this purposeful, i.e. to conform to screen limits, or accidental? It had previously been in a more proportional form. Wally 02:40, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The image seems really messed up, related to someone's vandalism involving a picture of a fish. I tried fixing it, but I think there is some sort of caching issue. I hope it will right itself, given time. If not, someone who knows more than I do about this type of thing will need to fix it. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:02, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
- Seems fine now. Filiocht 09:19, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Plays About Wilde
I have reverted the text about the 2004 play because it seems much more credible the way that it was. Often something like that increases ticket sales, and wouldn't Wiki need better sources to explain that kind of censorship in the U.K. MarnetteD | Talk 19:18, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Diversions and Delights was written by John Gay who was born in 1924. I have used the roman numerals in parentheses to delineate him from the English poet and playwright of the 1700's. I did not find any discussion of how to do this in the help pages, but if I have done this in a way that Wikipedia does not endorse I hope that the editors for the Oscar Wilde page will feel free to change it. MarnetteD | Talk 19:18, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I changed this to [[John Gay (born 1924)|John Gay]] which displays as John Gay. You also might want to create a page John Gay (disambiguation). -- Jmabel | Talk 05:22, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Bold text
Oscar Wilde and Anarchism
Doing some research on oscar wilde, i just found this interesting article, http://www.struggle.ws/ws98/ws53_wilde.html
It also provides a link to Wilde's essay on socialism (http://www.struggle.ws/hist_texts/wilde_soul.html)
Oscar Wilde's socialism
Yet all is well; he has but passed
To Life's appointed bourne:
And alien tears will fill for him
Pity's long broken urn
For his mourners be outcast men,
And outcasts always mourn.
Paris has had its fair share of famous people die in it. Most of them have ended up in the Pere La Chaise cemetery and Oscar Wilde is one of them. Of all the people buried there, that was the one grave I had to see when I entered that cemetery on a brisk March morning. I admire him because he was the master of that Irish pastime of extracting the Michael.
He was at first lauded by a society which would later reject him; as much for what he believed as for what he did. He believed his mourners would be outcasts because he never felt part of a society that holds homophobia as an attribute rather than what it really is, a disease.
"I think I am rather more than a Socialist. I am something of an Anarchist, I believe..."
Oscar Wilde was also inspired by politics. He was not blind to the obvious early failings of modern day society. The poverty he wrote about over a century ago, in 'The soul of man under Socialism', exists on the streets of Dublin today. Throughout this winter I've walked to work past bodies huddled under blankets in St. Stephen's Green, wheezing with bronchitis in the frosty air.
Wilde wrote about the poor in relation to charity "the best amongst them are never grateful. They are ungrateful, discontented, disobedient and rebellious....Man should not be ready to show that he can live like a badly fed animal. He should decline to live like that, and should either steal or go on the rates which is considered a form of stealing".
Wilde was living in a time when an estimated 2 million people were living in poverty in London. The solution would come under socialism, where property would be converted from private into public wealth and society would be restored to "its proper condition of a thoroughly healthy organism, and insure the well-being of each member of the community." In the meantime for the poor "why should they be grateful with the crumbs that fall from the rich man's table?"
"If the socialism is authoritarian; if there are governments armed with economic power as they are now with political power; if in a word, we are to have industrial tyrannies, then the last state of man will be worse than the first."
Wilde was certain of what kind of future he wanted for humanity. As the quote above indicates he did not wish to see an industrial tyranny rise in the name of Socialism. "All modes of Government are failures", he maintained, while social democracy is "the bludgeoning of people by the people for the people". His main obsession was with what he termed "individualism". I think it's fair to interpret this as a will for freedom. "Socialism itself will be of value because it will lead to individualism."
He opposed the locking up of people because they had committed crimes against property, arguing "a community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment rather than the occasional occurrence of crime".
He aslo took up the case of possibly the most famous political prisoners of his era. Along with George Bernard Shaw, he signed a petition for the release of the Haymarket martyrs (anarchist trade unionists executed for their role in the 8- hour day movement). He saw through the lies and the rail-roading they were receiving in that court in Chicago.
"A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not even worth glancing at."
Wilde lived his life never once renouncing his beliefs or his choices. His politics have been hidden over the years since he died in 1900. He wrote his essay on 'The Soul of Man under Socialism' over one hundred years ago, yet the ideas expressed are still vitally relevant. He expressed the idea that we all exist and only some of us really live. Some of us live because we're pushing for a different world to the one that surrounds us. Read him and remember "Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man's original virtue."
by Dermot Sreenan
Can some of this content/topic be added?
--Black Dagger 05:41, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Caption
Right now, one of the captions says, "Affectionally (though informally) known as 'the Queer on his Rear' or 'the Fag on the Crag'". I assume this is true; I'm not sure whether it belongs in the article. Opinions sought. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:16, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
Photo
I have a photo I took in 2002 of Wilde's tomb somewhere but I can't find it at the moment. Here is one I did find:
Wildehouse.JPG
Adam 02:09, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Is Oscar Wile Anglo-Irish?
As a very distant relative of Oscar's on his mother's side, I would state that his family is the epitome of the old term Anglo-Irish. The Anglo-Irish were the upper and middle class professionals of Ireland during the 18th and 19th centuries. They were usually of Irish origin, but adopted the manners of the English and the religion of the established church and thereby acquiring that professional education (e.g. law or medicine) generally forbidden to Catholics. To describe someone as Anglo-Irish does not make them English or any less Irish but it does pin them down in their social milieu. Wilde was able to move easily into English society because of his background. Dabbler 14:45, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)