Talk:Oder-Neisse line
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Old talk
(German:Danzig)
I copied the staff from Pomerania page, that is more relevant to Oder_Neisse page. However, I have no idea how to fit it into the latter. " The allied powers (United States, United Kingdom, Soviet Union) at the Yalta and Potsdam peace conferences in 1945 have decided to move Polish borders to the West, and have allowed the governments of Poland and Czechoslovakia to resettle the German citizens, that remained on their territories.
Polish version of what happened: As a result of the Allies (including Poland) winning the war with Nazi Germany, Poland managed to take back the territories lost in September 1939 and previous wars. (Please take into account, that local names in Pomerania, were actually Germanised Polish names. The same is related to most of names in Mecklenburg. i.e. names ending in German version -itz, Rakowitz, is Polish name of Rakowiec and means "Place full of gambas") ")
German version of what happened: Most of Pomerania, including its largest city, Stettin, was put under "temporary" Polish administration pending ratification of a peace treaty with Germany, which never occurred. (Borders were acknowledged by neighbouring German state, East Germany in the treaty of 1950. West Germany acknowledged the borders in 1970 treaty with Poland, while unified Germany closed finally border issue in the unification treaty in 1990). Those German inhabitants who had not fled were expropriated and expelled. (German citizens, that convinced Verification Commitiees, that they are of Polish origins, were granted Polish citizenship.) Eventually the area was repopulated by Polish settlers, many of them from the eastern parts of prewar Poland annexed by the Soviet Union. The name of Stettin was changed to the Polish Szczecin and all other German place names were similarly Polonized.
A.M.
Removed....
A 1957 meeting in the House of Representatives recorded details of the Expulsions and Ethnic Cleansing of Germans by the Communist Soviet Union and Poland and denounced the occupation by Soviet Union and Poland of German territory east of the Oder and Neisse as illegal.
It would be worth mentioning if the U.S. House of Representatives denounced the occupation as illegal. It didn't. One member wrote one speech which denounced it, and this is below the threshold of things worth mentioning.
First of all, there needs to be some statement as to what the Bierut decree is. Second, illegal in whose viewpoint.
The denial to renounce the illegal Bierut decree is a nother complication.
Removed line about illegal occupation. First of all, Soviet power is no longer relevant. Second, virtually everyone (including both the German and Polish governments) do not consider the territory illegally occupied or part of Germany at all. Some people might, but they are in very small minority.
Why are the Poles so paranoid about Germans owning land? its not as if the Germans are "evil" or anything...
Maybe the Poles are "evil"...? SC
That's not a question: it's an advocacy statement about one side of an ongoing dispute. Hence, I've moved it here:
"Right or Wrong, Legal and Moral Question
It must be pointed out that it is by international law illegal to expel original inhabitants of military occupied land and then to 'replace' them with ones own people. Those people, which support and justify the implementation of these (by international law illegal) acts, started before and agreed on after the war at the Potsdam Conference, do not wish to have attention raised to the question of legal or moral justification of these acts. They seek to discredict with demeaning slogans and name-calling anyone pointing to the legal and moral Right or Wrong question of the Potsdam decisions. "
Vicki Rosenzweig
Right versus Wrong
The Oder-Neisse line and the Curzon line have both been created by murderous decisions and actions.
It must be pointed out that International Law states. that it is illegal to expel original inhabitants of military occupied land and then to 'replace' them with ones own people.
Supporters, who justify the implementation of these (supposed by international law illegal) acts, started before and agreed on after the war at the Potsdam Conference, do not wish to have attention raised to the alleged illegality and immorality of these acts, resulting in millions of death. There are those who declare the outcome of the Potsdam Conference right and seek to discredict with demeaning slogans and name-calling anyone pointing to the illegal and immoral wrongs of the outcome of the Potsdam decisions.
Ex post facto. This particular crime was, I believe, outlawed in the 4th Geneva Convention in 1949, therefore several years after the Potsdam Conference.
The other thing to point out is that international law is determined by the comity of nations, and there is no reason under international law to give the Geneva Conventions a higher status than the Potsdam Declaration even if the Geneva Conventions were violated (and there are about five or six ways to argue that they weren't). Something else to consider is that there is a lot of bad stuff that is permissible under international law.
Mentioning the status of the Oder-Neisse line under international law from a NPOV standpoint would be useful. But the above passages don't make it.
What does it mean
- The exile Polish government in London was dimissed, as Stalin said, for being 'too friendly to Germany'."
Who dismissed the government ?
To User:Kpjas
The Polish Exile government in London firmly refused to abandon the principle of territorial integrity.
In April 1943 the Soviet Union broke relations with the Polish government in exile, after the discovery of the murders of the Polish officers at Katyn. In July 1944 the Soviet Red Army entered Poland and established a communist controlled "Polish Committee of National Liberation' at Lublin. Following the Yalta Conference in Feb 1945, Polish Provisional Government of National Unity" was formed in June 1945, the US recognized it the next month. Although the Yalta Conference called for free elections, those held in Jan 1947 were controlled by the communist party. The communists estasblished a regime entirely under their domination.
Excerpt from Henry Bogdan: From Warsaw to Sofia http://www.hungary.com/corvinus/lib/bogdan/bogdan25.htm and: AIESEC world discovery plus a lot more on google.com
The article currently reads "It must be pointed out that the brutal expulsions by the Soviets and the condoning of this genocide has directly lead to many more ethnic cleansings in the last 50 years.
"Must be pointed out" is hardly NPOV. The statement itself needs support--one might equally well claim that the Trail of Tears was the direct cause of those ethnic cleansings. That two actions are seen as similar doesn't mean that one caused the other: or shall we edit this article to say that "it must be pointed out" that German policies between 1933 and 1945 were the direct cause of the expulsions being discussed here? Vicki Rosenzweig
Could someone who actually knows about this replace "ethnically cleansed" with something more accurate -- are we talking pure genocide? Choice of expulsion or death? If genocide, are we talking about people rounded up and murdered, or dead as a result of other policies? Ethnic cleansing is just so inaccurate and can also be misleading, as it means many things to many people. JHK
Ukranians are expelled and also come in to take over German property? Which is it? Rmhermen 15:35 Aug 22, 2002 (PDT)
Rmherman, Ukrainians had come under Polish rule after 1921/22 war Poland/Soviet Union. Stalin took this land in 1939 and kept it in 1945 (Curzon Line or land East of the Bug River). Warsaw Polish government moved people from East of the Bug river (for example Lwow to Breslau/Wroclaw) into German land east of the Oder-Neisse, from where they expelled Germans. user:H.J.
- Then they were relocated not expelled. But if they were trying to build a Polish only state, why didn't they expell them? Rmhermen 15:47 Aug 22, 2002 (PDT)
I propose redirecting the Odra-Nysa line and Oder-Neisse line articles to German-Polish border or border between Germany and Poland.
I'd like the article to begin with a brief, dispassionate paragraph mentioning the two main English variants of the name of this border (in alphabetical order):
- Oder-Neisse line
- Odra-Nyas line
The paragraph could mention that the derivations of each variant from the German and Polish languages. --Uncle Ed 16:22 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)
We may do that, but I think, a placement under Oder-Neisse line is fine as well. Everyone but Taw has agreed to this. Do what you think best. -- Cordyph 16:37 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)
I just moved the page back to Oder-Neisse line. To anyone, who might have the idea of moving it back to Odra-Nysa line: Please have a look at this talk page and see, why this page goes under this title. -- Cordyph 11:08 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)
Can someone fix this - alot of pro-Polish stuff has been added by a newbie and some stuff deleted that shouldnt have been - the article has become very incoherent as a result
PMelvilleAustin 14:25, Oct 16, 2003 (UTC)
- It is a complete mess now. What do you think about reverting to the version before the first edit of October 14. The article had been okay then, and almost every edit by 212.144.140.68 and 145.254.x.x appears to be redundant. There are several facts, that do not belong here, but to the articles History of Poland and History of Germany. If I do not hear an objection, I will revert to that earlier version and afterwards try to improve the article. That is much easier than cleaning the mess. -- Cordyph 07:05, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Do it mate PMelvilleAustin 08:02, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)
- Okay, done. I reverted to the version before October 14 and then re-inserted some of the stuff added by 145.254.x.x. The stuff added by 212.144.140.68 did not belong here, since it described events in Poland during World War II, which had nothing to do with the Oder Neisse line. In addition I changed some sentences myself. I hope you agree with these changes. --
Cordyph 12:29, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- What happneed during WWII has a lot of to do with the Oder Neisse line.
I am trying to merge both versions. GH
How many Poles from Polish minority ( os called autochtones ) in Germany was allowed to tsya in Poland after WWII?? szopen
2 200 000 were expelled out of 3500 000 (population of the former German territories. There were also 3 500 000 Volksdeutsche from pre 1939 Poland. I don't know how many of them were expelled.GH
There is some inconsistency here with numbers. I've read following numbers: 2,2 million expelled, 2,5 million, 3,5 million, 5,5 million, 6, 5million or even 10 million. The number of dead is from 415.000 to 3,2 million (which is higher than what officially is number of expelled Germans!) Maybe we should add the note tht 2,2 millions expelled is official estimation, and a lot of Germans also escaped earlier, and total number... etc etc? szopen
@Taw, Morwen, Hephaestos and SecretLondon. Especially for Taw. Could you possibly explain what are trying to achieve by constantly moving this page? Since this is an english wikipedia the correct name is Oder Neisse Line (see Britannica Online [[1] (http://www.britannica.com/search?miid=1210436&query=oder&x=8&y=8)]). Changing to Odra-Nysa is completely foolish and childish. Now imagine if some Englishman kept changing pl:Londyn to London, or pl:Nowy Jork to New York? Again, what are you trying to achieve? It looks like pointless de-germanisation of english names. Greetings from Szczecin near the Oder river.Przepla 20:56, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The other river is Nysa Luzycka, not just a Nysa -- cc, 04:59, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Most of the articles are so Por-Poland that there's always about German aggression during WWII and how the Nazis ill-treated the Polish. Most do not want to report on how Poland backstab Czechoslovakia when she annexed Teschin right after the Nazi Wehrmacht move into Sudentenland. I think the greatest evil are the Russians as Stalin is more lebensraum minded than the Germans. Yes, he gets East Poland from Poland, but now it belongs to Belarus and Ukraine. And now Russia is only left with tiny Kaliningrad. I think Kaliningrad should return to Germany for better administration and developments.
- POland took over Polish Zaolzie against Munich. And as reaction of earlier Czech invasion in 1920 (or so) when Czechs took over area violating earlier agreements. And later they forced Poles to recognise that facts, when Soviet army was at gates of Warsaw. Czechs were hyenas in 1920 - I would say that our action was justified, only timing was not.
- I do not agree with you. Germans expelled million Poles from their homes and killed about 4-5 millions of them. Soviets expelled about 5 million and killed at most one million, but more probably half million (includign victims of civil war post 1945).
- Anyway, mentioning that Nazis ill-treated Poles is not pro-Polish. It is just fact.
- BTW, my wife's mother has name Maria. As many of her friends. You know why? Because during war some local Nazis decided, that Polish girls can be only named with Maria.
Well, the Poles get their revenge when the war concluded by expelling the Germans from their home. I would say the victors always have their final say on how history will be written. The ugly side of them will always be justified as necessary. Germany has done a great evil on her neighbours during WWII and deserved her punishment, but the price to pay in term of territory lost is just too great.
well,i am foreinger and has a question.Since Oder-Neisse line along Oder-Neisse river is a natural boundary, why the city of stettin,which is obvious on the west side of the river, now belongs to poland? can anyone answer me?
- As mentioned in the article itself, Stettin _was_ originally going to stay German but was given in compensation for Stalin taking the northen half of East Prussia including Kaliningrad.
- The same reason is why there was so much "ethnic cleansing" - the originally planned "Oder-eastern Neisse" boundary would have left much of Silesia - and most of the Germans in the Oder-Neisse areas - as part of Germany. For all the "rights based on the 11th Century" talk among many Poles alot of the current borders were achieved by pure luck for them. PMA 09:48, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)
- Few toughts from a Pole in Szczecin (Stettin). Current anti-German sentiments on Wiki are unfortunately results of an 45 years indoctrination by Communists Goverments. Historically, Polish-German relations were much more peaceful than Polish-Russian. For instance Polish-German borders established in 15th century were unchanged until partions in 1764, while Polish-Russian were in constant flux -- Polish troops even occupied Moscow in 1605, and 1610-1611. Partitions of Poland were in fact results of plots by Russian Empire. Kosciuszko's, as well as January and November uprisings (in 1793, 1831 and 1863) were against Russia. Only Russia sent Poles to the Asia as a punishment. Poland was again invaded by Russia in 1920, and backstabed in 1939. While Nazis atrocities were mainly targeted agains Jewish population in Poland, Soviet Russia targeted Polish inteligetzia (most educated persons -- teachers, military officers, scientists and the like). After 1945 Poland was practically occupied by Soviet Union. All those anti-Russian facts, had to be somewhat minimalized. Hence the propaganda of evil Germans. Most historical films were about three, relatively short periods -- Teutonic Knights, Kulturkampf and Nazi Occupation. To convince Poles that border shifts were justified, the idea of borders from 1025 AD was concieved -- as current Poland's border are the same as in 1025 AD. (One may ask why not the 1500 borders when Poland had border with Black Sea, or 1550 when Poland possessed current territories of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia). The fact is, that Szczecin is as German as Lwów (Lviv) is Polish. (I mean Lwów is essentially a Polish city, and Szczecin is essentially German.) (Berlin was a slavic settlement initially -- it does not however make it Polish city).
- Oficially Berlin is 20% Slavic 30%German, 20%French and 30% Jewish city, b yhistory Cautious 17:22, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- So Poles were indoctrinated by over 45 years. Anti-German sentiments fortunately are lowering, especially (and ironically) on West Poland -- e.g. in recent poll for a most distingushed citizen of Szczecin highest places receive German mayors: Haken and Ackermann. Most pro-EU were Poles living in the West, as they already know most their western allies.Przepla 23:59, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Let's keep in mind that borders shift was Yalta Treaty idea. Poles definitelly didn't want to give up Lwów and Wilno (Vilnus), as those cities were our homeland, not some God-forsaken western cities...
- The most (and only) anti-German political party (LPR -- League of Polish Families), is nick-named Friends of Russia League, as their rhetoric is in fact the same as of Communists -- attack Germans so people don't realize that real enemy is Russia.
- So this is inside of Polish society. (No doubt I will be called traitor now by some zealot.)Przepla 23:59, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- The problem is that here in wikipedia we have a group, that wants to repeat the version of history, that were Nazi times propaganda. Cautious 17:22, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Let's not get races hatred into our minds. The peace between Germans and Poles should always be preserved and cherished. Well, maybe a United European State could solve years of uneasyness.
The whole "Polish preventing Germans buying land" sticks in my throat in particular - it's stupid, bigoted, bizarre and paranoid IMHO but then given the vocalness of the "11th Century rights" people i shouldnt be all that surprised at the bigotry. PMA 06:33, Feb 8, 2004 (UTC)
@Wik: Could you kindly explain why inserting puppet was non-NPOV? Those goverments were in fact puppet govts, aren't they? Przepla 22:45, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- No, that's just your POV. --Wik 22:48, Feb 11, 2004 (UTC)
'Today and the future' section
Do we need this section? I'm having a hard time thinking of a way to NPOV-ify it, and most of the info seems to me to belong to the Heimatvertriebene article. Jor 19:56, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Historical facts
As a rationale to reverting changes made byUser:66.47.62.78 I'd like to point out:
- borders in Silesia were decided by Silesian Uprisings after plebiscite's results were deemed unapropriate by Poles (plebiscite were held during Polish-Soviet war, so many people decided to vote for safe Germany, and mainland Germans were permitted to vote, providing they were merely born on Silesia and moved to Mainland later),
- Silesia would be more appropriate discussion of those changes,
- Poznan is Polish teritorry. It is a capitol of Greater Poland region for Merlin's beard! Przepla 21:37, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
More Historical facts
The plebiscite vote in that part of Silesia by Silesians was 4 to 7 for Germany. Period. Then agitators arrived from Poland and stirred the ethnic Polish Silesians up.
I have no idea what Merlin's beard is supposed to reference to.
- I don't deny that. Silesia was at that time very ethnically mixed. 4/7 vote means that 57% voted for Germany, while 43% for Poland. Close call, one would say. Now, imagine allegations about falsifications, refusing of postponing plebiscite until after Polish-Soviet war was concluded, etc. No wonder that Poles revolt. You stated that vote was 4 to 7 and yet Poland get the land. In fact vote was 4 to 7 then Poles revolt, and Leauge of Nations due to uprisings gave this land to Poland. If vote went the other way (i.e. 4 to 7 in favour of Poland), I believe that the Germans would revolt. With such strong ethnically mixed population problems are unavoidable. To add problems to that picture, some significant number at that time asked if they are Poles or German would answer: neither of them, they are Silesians. So whole situation was nobody-wins one. Neverthless, this is beyond scope of this article. for Merlin's beard is my way of saying for God's sake -- taken from Harry Potter I believe. Przepla 01:08, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hallo Przepla, I noticed, that you are pretty new, welcome! It seems that you are living in Stettin? A student from Danzig university told me, that in order to study, the students all have to learn German and English. Is that so in Stettin as well? I went through there by train in 2002 along the Baltic Sea from Berlin to Danzig and Elbing. Hope to go there again soon. I wish I could tell you, that this wikipedia is a nice place, but I can't. There are very nice people here, but unfortunately there are many very agressive, pigheaded, unpleasant people with a really nasty attitude. I think you may have already noticed it a litle bit. I have already compared this place to a viper's nest or horniss nest. Lot of times they tend to gang up. It is often best to stand back. At the moment it is actually much better than it used to be, believe it or not.
There are so many gross mistakes on wikipedia especially on the history articles and it is really frustrating, when mistake and distortions get input over and over, especially those vicious attacks. I came across the following on wikipedia and am putting it here for more details :1921 Plebiscite in Silesia and Korfanty led violence. I know that a place in Silesia was renamed to Korfanty. On the Merlin's beard, I guess I am a little past the Harry Potter years. Do they have the books in Poland as well ? I started a lot of articles on wikipedia and contributed quite a bit. For some time I got so sick of wikipedia, I stopped. Now I do not even put my name to it. My friends know who I am. MfG
- Hello. I don't consider myself new, since I am here since summer, but natuarally this is a relative matter and I am personally using Internet since 1998 and consider all who does not use it for more than 3 years newbies too ;-). So I am already aware of intrisincs of Wikipedia and conflicts which occur. I don't know if I am refering to the same problem as you, but Wiki's conflicts indeed are much less common now, than last summer. Regarding using German and English in Polish schools, those two languages are indeed taught at every level of education. I myself speak only English, as I was too old to catch up with current trends in education. Regading Harry Potter, I shall respond with this quote from C.S. Lewis: When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. I am 26 years old, by the way. Regarding Polish-German relations, I must say they are thriving. Szczecin's University (where I've got my Masters Degree in Law, and Bachelors Degree in Physics) have very strong relations with Rostock's University. My entire year had a 2 weeks interniship there and some significant number are studying there. One of my friends is even doing her doctorate in Rostock. As you are anonymous, feel free to use my talk page to further communicate with me. Przepla 14:55, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I separately want to address historical issues mentioned by you. You should be aware, that Korfanty is Polish national hero, for securing possesion of some parts of Silesia. Poland was at time non-existant for over 180 years, and it was crucial to further existence of nation, to have some economically important areas of Silesia. (My data are stating 29% of area and 46% of population). Within that conflicts there was no good side and bad side. Both sides were equally wrong, and I'd call Korfanty's led violence a NPOV title. Przepla 14:55, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
"Polish restrictions on the sale of property to foreigners".
Although there is some politics in it, the rationale of these decisions is mainly economical. The unrestricted land trade may turn the real estate market upside down due to land price differences and purchasing power of Poles and Western Europeans. The restrictions are temporary as it is believed the economic differences would gradually diminish after Polish EU accession. This is the same reason Germany and Austria introduced restritions in labor transfer.
- I might add, that it is said that land trade restrictions were negotiated in exchange for 12 years restriction in unlimited Polish labour in Germany. Przepla 14:55, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- These restritions in labor migration are 7 years. In fact, land sale restritions are more complicated. It's at most 12 years. Some types of real estate are less restricted.Poszwa 16:02, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Thank you, for clearing this up. I knew that there was 12 years for something, but wasn't exactly sure for what. Przepla 18:16, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- These restritions in labor migration are 7 years. In fact, land sale restritions are more complicated. It's at most 12 years. Some types of real estate are less restricted.Poszwa 16:02, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Concerning the whole article, I think it needs some major rewrite. I'm Polish and therefore biased but I think there are too few facts and too many unnecessary emotions. The information about expelled German should go to separate article. The Nazi/Soviet/Communist crimes and Polish/German wrongdoings are mostly irrelevant here. I find German Wikipedia entry de:Oder-Neiße-Grenze more NPOV than this one. Poszwa 11:16, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Answer in reference to this earlier message:
"Polish version of what happened: As a result of the Allies (including Poland) winning the war with Nazi Germany, Poland managed to take back the territories lost in September 1939 and previous wars. (Please take into account, that local names in Pomerania, were actually Germanised Polish names. The same is related to most of names in Mecklenburg. i.e. names ending in German version -itz, Rakowitz, is Polish name of Rakowiec and means "Place full of gambas")
I just came across this propaganda by the previous writer ref.-itz I suppose the person that wrote about the Germanised Polish names would insist, that the German language words: Sitz, Blitz, Witz, Hitze are all Polish- of course- ??
F(a)ctually: S-itz Place, location, seat = Sitz in German (such as in seat of government, a place to sit, to sit down = setzen (G), I sit = ich sitze(G) Old German Saxon sete
You might be interested to find out,that modern German language words,such as:
Sitz = (seat or location), Blitz= thunder, lightning, Witz = joke, Hitze= heat
were spelled in c.1400 as follows:
- Hitze = hiczcze
- Blitz = bliczcze,
- Zeh = cze, engl. toe
- Zahn = czan engl. tooth
So much for the 'Polish' place names -itz
To Poszwa and Przepla, I had written a long 10 point answer, but I guess it was too long, it disappeared before I could push submit. Will answer again at some other time.
Just short. You are welcome to start an article on Korfanty and his times. Yes, it was a terrible time in Europe, dictated by outside forces and hopefully the united Europe can better than previously withstand agitators from within and without.
On Oder Neisse line. Americans, many, are only interested in propaganda, feel-good, fast(food), easy, simple, simplistic answers and especially war propagandas( Lets blow-em all up). Book stores are still full of rows after rows of Nazi 'crimer fighter' books and only maybe feature one book each on the larger states of Europe. Hopefully Wikipedia, despite all its flaws can educate people a litle more. So far Wikipedia is still full of slanted material, misstatements and attacks by groups. There are some pretty good articles, as long as they are not about any controversal material. There are very nice wikipedians, but there are a whole bunch of roughies and ganging up is constantly going on. I basically have quit contributing because of the often hostile environment.
To 66.47.62.78:
Actually, my version of the history is: As a result of the Allies (including Poland) winning the war with Nazi Germany, Poland managed to take back the territories lost in September 1939 and also some of the territory that was lost in the previous wars (some of them very long ago, some of the land might have never been Polish, it doesn't matter much). However, the legal pre-war government in excile wanted the pre-1939 borders only. Stalin decided the eastern part of Poland, east of Bug river would go to the Soviets and decided that to compensate the loss, Poland would get eastern part of defeated Germany. After the war, Poland had to accept the status quo. The (communist) government propaganda sold it to the Poles as a good deal as a return of the land lost long time ago. Poland, however, got a net loss of the territory, from 388,000 sq km to 312,000 sq km. The country was devastated and several million people got killed, many were displaced. I would say that despite "winning" the war, Poland lost more than Germany (although I won't argue about it). The displacement of the peaple was a tragic consequence of the war and the resulting change of the borders.
Concerning Polish/German names of the towns. The problem is not yet solved. Both Slavs and Germans borrowed names from each other. We know that Slavs lived on the present Polish areas from 6th century. We don't know what was before. Vistula for example is probably a Celtic name. Some of the names are certainly older and borrowed from earlier tribes. There is, however, no doubt that Poles (or other Slavic tribes) lived in most (if not all) area of current Poland around 11th century. This includes areas east of Oder-Neisse line. Some of the Slavs lived also west of Oder-Neisse line (see Sorbs).
After that, due to loss of control, intrest from Polish kings, (mostly peaceful) migration of Germans and influence of German culture, some of the area got German inhabitants, in some areas the population was virtually all German. Some of the cities were build by Germans and the land has undoubtly strong German character. Some were mixed with mostly local populations who was neither strictly Polish not German. For centuries there were little conflicts between all the nations. Some conflicts started with partition of Poland in late 18th century as Prussians got control over areas with Polish majority. The 19th century among other inventions brought nationalism. Second World war was hopefully the last act of the conflict. Poszwa 14:22, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Well said, sir! Przepla 18:11, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Yes the first Slavs ruled by Frankish merchand Samo lived in Moravia. Samo had 20 wives, leads me to believe, they were refugees from somewhere else and the men were dead. Great Moravia was the first Slav ruled place, destroyed by more Avars, Huns from Asia. Frankish emperor Arnulf of Carinthia ruled (parts of ?) Moravia, all Moravia, then Bohemia, then last Piasts received their ducal titles from the emperors and land liens. Mieszko I, Boleslaw I etc were all married to daughters of Margraves. That is how the empire was ruled, by emperors daughters, granddaughters, nieces, widows being married to neighboring conquerers, if you will. Making them a part of the family, settled them down. All the first bishoprics in Moravia, Bohemia, Poland were for 100 years or more under the archbishoprics of the empire. (see google.com: Catholic Encyclopedia, New Advent) Ever since the Slav people came into Germania (see Tacitus), they intermarried, for example Dagome Iudex =Ote=Oda von Haldensleben. Dubrawka, 1. wife Mieszko I, who insisted on him getting baptized, this Dubrawka was a widow and was first married to Guenther von Merseburg, father of famous German religious figures Ekkehard and Ute. There are countless examples, especially during Habsburg times, when all the Lithuanian Jagiellos were married to Habsburgs, later Swedisch Vasas etc. Gotta go, greetings MfG
MfG, Mieszko was prince and didn't have to receive any titles from emperor. Also Polish rulers were marrying also Rusin daughters and were related to all royal families of Europe.
Now, i see the article is protected. What are the issues with it?
Let's sort them out 1) Whether one should add emotional sentences like "despite all odds" into encyclopedia article 2) Whether Polish-German treaty guaranteed rights of both minorities (Polish in Germany and German in Poland) or only German in Poland (this is easier to check and verify) 3) Whether it is needed to add the "15 million" number when it is number of Germans expelled or who escaped from ALL eastern Europe in article treating on Poland alone. Szopen
page is now unprotected - and someone else's problem now... PMA 14:31, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)
New Version: only about the border line!
I applied the new look to the article. Please limit yourself to edits about the border. Expulsions should go to Expulsion of Germans after World War II. Attrocities to the world war II attrocities. Seaman 14:59, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Soon to be edits
I am going to add Polish reaction to expelee demands, espacially i am thinking about "Wprost" actions (in short, we will pay compensation as soon as Germans will pay for destruction of all Polish villages, recompensate for lost lifes of almost WHOLE intelligentsia etc). Anyone objects to that?
Also, Polish governmetn position IIRC was that only German government can pay compensation, because it recognised Polish borders with any consequences of that.Szopen
I am against. The new concept of Oder-Neisse line is that it is exclusively about the borderline. The demands of Expellees and reactions, belonged to German expulsion after WW2. Seaman 13:31, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
OK. My proposition had sense only when the Expelees position was presented Szopen
this phrase makes no sense
"this made the border effectively into existence." please fix it. i'd do it, but i have no idea what is intended. Kingturtle 05:18, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Merge
I think this should be merged with Revision of borders of Poland (1945). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:34, 12 May 2005 (UTC)