Talk:May Day

Template:Authoronlinesource2005

An event in this article is a May 1 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)

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May Day: Quasi-Pagan holiday, right? May poles, boinking in the fields, that sort of thing? Who knows about this?

Well, I know that in Appalachia (i have folk there) they still preserve two terms which relate to May Day. "The fool of the May" is kind of like an anti-king who might rule over a party... usually this is reserved for any loudmouth at an event who is getting out of hand, but I seem to recall this being an actual folk-traditional character in Pre-Christian Europe... Also, there was the "Queen of the May" or "May Queen" which my mom frequently uses to either mean--"isn't she just as pretty as the Queen of the May" or "well, doesn't she think she's the May Queen." So it has a positive and a negative. Certainly both of these instances hint at a possible Pagan connection. I would assume that it isn't altogether Neo-Pagan because my folk are otherwise conservative rural folk who don't truck with such nonsense... at least that's how they would put it. My only other assumption would be that it must carry over from some older definition... Like I said, I have heard this and that, but I haven't any concrete stuff. I'll do some research... but this is what I know off the top of my head. --trimalchio

I think he means Beltane. --Dmerrill

Well, that certainly simplifies things. :) I should have asked Sara. --User:trimalchio

Perhaps a note could be added that besides geographic locations where Beltane is celebrated, it is a Pagan holiday (which then includes such people in other countries). --Schwael 13:39, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think it's worth distinguishing between Beltane observed as a religious holiday and May Day observed as a quasi-secular excuse for merrymaking, but I really don't know.

i added one more empty line to make the last sentence appear> it was hidden by the box of category> forgive my poor english

samy of Egypt

Contents

1 Expansion 2 Whats w this hijack nonsense? 3 NPOV 3.1 Flame 4 New ideas 5 Spade, 6 progress

Expansion

• Fascists claim victory after day of violence (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,15157829%255E663,00.html) - NEO-nazi leaders claimed success yesterday after Germany's most violent May Day demonstration. - Neil Wilson - Leipzig -03may05

The above implies to me that we might want to expand regarding recent may day riots. Sam Spade 07:32, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Whats w this hijack nonsense?

Sounds like POV... Sam Spade 23:22, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Read the article you provided! It specifically says the violence started when the police came to shut down regular yearly may day celebrations in order to make way for the neo-nazis. It seems to me it is you who is being NPOV, and attempting to take the article you provided out of context. What the hell is wrong with you?-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 23:48, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

Does anyone else think that mayday is a nazi holiday? Because sam seems to think that unless we imply that, this article is NPOV. If no one else takes sam's insanely biased view, the NPOV tag should be removed.-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 16:42, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Please. I am submitting a RfC. Sam Spade 20:38, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Go for it-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 20:52, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Question for Sam - do you have a problem with the word hijack because it is emotive, or do you feel that that the neo-nazis have a claim to May Day given the fact that the ruling Nazi party adapted May Day to their purposes? Question for Che - do you really think that "hijack" is really an appropriately neutral term?

The fundamental difference, as I see it, is whether you can consider the neo-nazis "inheritors" of the Nazi party's claim to May Day (in which case "making more use of the day", as Sam said first) might be seen as appropriate. On the other hand, if you see May Day as a socialist day, then yes, it would seem like the neo-nazis are trying to elbow their way in to the day of the left. Of course, since it's really a pagan holiday, I suppose they should really have the first claim on the day...if you want to believe that neo-pagans have the right to inherit claims of the old pagans. Might saying that the neo-nazis are "asserting a claim to the day" (or something along those lines) be a better compromise? Some wording that neither suggests nor denies that the neo-nazis have some claim to the day? Guettarda 21:18, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I do consider may day to be a socialist day, but that's not the point. The point is that the article sam quotes itself does not imply that leftists were counter protesters, on the contrary. It suggests that leftsists were participating in regular mayday celebrations, and had to be cleared out by the police to allow for a very small nazi protest. That's when the fighting starts, implying that nazis were attempting to "hijack", or "take advantage of", or whatever you wanna say, a traditionally left wing day, and that they were still outnumbered anyways. Meaning we can't say that the nazis were primarily the ones doing the marching. It is fact that the day is traditionally left wing. So, i'd say "attempting to take advantage of" isn't pov. Implying that the nazis were "the ones doing the marching" is however.-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 22:04, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Che makes a whole cartload of assumptions, which I thank you very much for questioning. I make no claim as to who "owns" may day. Nazis called it "workers day", and communist types called it "blut mai". Regular folks call it "may day", and its an ancient holiday, celebrating solstice (see walpurgis nacht). This whole "who owns the day" mess is actually a very real, very violent issue here in germany, and NOT one we should be taking a stand on!!! People have been killing each other about the matter since the 20's, and in fairly large numbers (see the article). In summary, I will agree to any neutral wording, which does not include "hijack", or any expression of day ownership. That said, keep in mind:

• April 30: Anniversary of Hitler's death, associated with May Day, the next day.
• May 1: May Day/Beltaine, one of the dates Hitler proposed to set up as a holiday. Hitler wished to wipe out various religious holidays and replace them with solar-year based celebrations and dates commemorating Nazi achievements.[1] (http://www.survivorship.org/nazi.html)

The only German government to have sanctioned May Day was that of Adolf Hitler, who proclaimed “National Labour Day” to a million workers gathered in Berlin on May 1st 1933, even receiving a resolution of gratitude and approval from the reformist trade-union leadership, who were still at large (though not for long, since on May 2nd, 1933, their offices were raided by Nazi squads, who forced them to perform repeated knee-bends before packing them off to concentration camps).[2] (http://www.marxists.org/archive/sedgwick/1965/05/mayday.htm)

Sam Spade 22:11, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually my reading of Che's comments is that he has a problem with the line: frequently leading to clashes with left-wing protesters? I didn't read that as saying that the neo-nazis were clashing with leftwingers protesting the neo-nazi marches, I read that as saying that the neo-nazi marches led to clashes with left-wingers who were out celebrating May Day with their customary "protests"; is this what you take issue with? I suspect that it would be easy to alter the wording to make it less ambiguous. I wouldn't assume up front that Sam meant that the left wingers were only out to protest the neo-nazis. Is that the problem?

I used the term "ownership" somewhat loosely...and without proper knowledge of that part of the history. I was using "ownership" as a straw man - I was assuming that it wasn't the real issue. Of course, I think I mis-read both Sam and Che. Regardless, would more neutral wording be acceptable? Remove "hijack" but also find something better to call the left-wingers, not "protestors", or re-arrange the words so that they can't be read as simply being out there to protest the neo-nazis. Guettarda 22:35, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I have no problem with that line, it's the line that comes just before it that we're having trouble over. Sam's last edit read like this: "In recent years, this has somewhat declined, with neo-nazis and others on the right like the NPD doing the marching, frequently leading to clashes with left-wing protesters". I changed it to "In recent years, this has somewhat declined, with neo-nazis and others on the right like the NPD attempting to hijack the day, frequently leading to clashes with left-wing protesters". If you read the history, I explained that sams own article which he cited, does not support such a conclusion, that the Nazis were the ones "doing the marching". His reply was "so what? it was the NPD marching, the lefties were counter protestors. Whats w this hijack nonsense?". Which I think is absolutely rediculous.-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 22:45, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

I also think that at hitler's time, russia was, I believe, the only country who officially recognized mayday. So to say that he was the first president isn't saying much. It was still an important day for workers' action on the left, as the section on germany shows. And today, hitler no longer exists, and it is those tiny groups who try to take mayday as a Nazi day, while the majority of action on that day is for workers' liberation. This is just fact, not POV.-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 22:48, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Sam's first words (as far as I can tell from the history) were: "In recent years, this has somewhat declined, while neo-nazis like the NPD try to make use of the day again with public demonstrations, which frequently lead to clashes with left-wing protesters."

• Do you agree that leftwing marches have declined in recent years? (I have no way of judging this)
• Do you agree that neo-nazis are "using the day for public protests"?
• Do you agree that these protests lead to clashes with leftwing protestors?

If so, then the remaining difference is trivial. The history is already there. So how about:

In recent years, neo-nazis like the NPD have attempted to use the day for public demonstrations; this has frequently led to clashes with left-wing groups.

(with the mention about declines in punk & autonome protests left in a separate sentance, if need be). The majority of action on that day is for workers' liberation is there in the article, it could be strengthened if you wish. By presenting the two ideas side by side you can let the reader interpret it as s/he sees fit without interjecting any editorial comments. Thoughts? (I've got a bus to catch). Guettarda 23:01, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I think that's a perfect compromise.-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 23:07, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Just so you know, sam's original change was "making more use of the day", which I had only slightly modified to "trying to make use of the day".-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 23:11, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

2 things. #1 the NPD is not officially a neo-nazi party (if it was it would be illegal), so that bit (no matter how true, and trust me I know it is) is POV. #2, attempted is both POV and IMO inaccurate, I'd go for the following:

In recent years, neo-nazis and other groups on the far right like the NPD have also used the day to schedule public demonstrations; leading to increasingly violent clashes with left-wing groups.

BTW, when this is resolved, we should nominate User:Guettarda for admin, assuming he's willing. Have a look at his http://www.politicalcompass.org/ score (on his user page), and compare that to his amiable, neutral stance here! Hoorah, Guettarda, and here's hoping you catch that bus!

Cheers, Sam Spade 23:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Attempted can't be POV, because whenever you do something, you're making an attempt. To speculate whether they were successful in that attempt, is POV however. My problem is with attributing too much importance to the Neo-Nazis on this day, and yes I know they aren't all officially Neo-Nazis, but this is a talk page. The fact is that they should not be given more importance than their miniscule presence warrants.-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 23:34, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

And please don't sweet-talk the negotiatior :P-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 23:35, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Should and attempted are both POV. They succeeded in marching that day, no doubt about it. Sam Spade 23:39, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Are you saying that me using the word "should" to describe what we shouldn't do is POV? :| Ok... Sam, in general, I don't want an article that makes it sound like the Nazis have taken mayday. Because, as your own article states, they have not. Attempted is not POV, it just adds another layer of description to how much that is not accepted by the general masses within germany. They call for demonstrations, they attempt to organize them, and they are consistently disrupted. Now we don't need to mention more than the fact that they try to organize events and that this leads to clashes. I don't want it to say consistently disrupted, but I don't want it to leave the reader with the impression that they are accepted either. You are describing one day were the police came out to allow them to march, your article itself paints a picture that says the law usually doesn't allow this. The Nazis won a court battle before coming out. So to imply that this is a pattern of success isn't NPOV either. So let's leave it at attempted, because you don't know how consistant they've been in their success.-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 00:03, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Sure I do, I'm in germany, and I was out on walpurgis nacht. I know the political atmosphere here, and I study the politics. I'm not trying to say "their winning, and no one is brave enough to disrupt them", but saying "attempted demonstration" is ridiculous, it wasn't broken up, it was counter protested. What successful protest isn't counter protested? Sam Spade 01:21, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

So you've been to every mayday protest in every town in germany over the past 10 years and made a statistical study of the representation of Nazis at these protests? If you're going to imply a pattern of growth, which you are implying, you will need to show alot of evidence. Not a pattern of growth of Nazis in general, a pattern of growth in Nazi presence on mayday, in comparison with the presence of anti-fascist forces. Otherwise, "attempting to make use of" is the best we can work with. It does not imply "attempting to protest" as you seem to think. It doesn't imply that they don't make use of. It just doesn't attach any judgement on how successful they've been in hijacking mayday. Anyways. Maybe we're going about this the wrong way. This page lists mayday under several different meanings. Perhaps we should put what you're talking about, the Nazi day of action (which is seperate from mayday in the traditional sense) under its own section, and mention clashes with the other side under both.-- Revolutionary Left (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com) | Che y Marijuana 12:50, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Is the current version acceptable to everyone as NPOV? Aside from Che's suggestion about adding separate sections based on different meanings (which is a structural question, not a POV question), is there anything that still needs the POV template? Guettarda 13:07, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I am fine w removing the dispute header from the current version, but if you scroll down a bit, you'll see why I have my doubts that the matter is resolved. Sam Spade 13:29, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Flame

Mr. Spade, this is a load of shit. Would you please

• stop NPOV-tagging on grounds you are unable to explain
• stop bolding your user-name
• read up on Hitler's birth-date again
• read up when the last person has been killed in may protest in Germ.
• stop boasting that you were out on walpurigs nacht, gee, how impressive, how authentic! What did you do there, getting drunk and/or running from the police?
• stop trolling. I've looked up your contributions history, and all you did recently is a mess. E.g. this Prussian Holocaust thing really sucks ass.

BTW you are quite a welcome-message-machine. What is this, some kind of social engineering ?

-- 790 09:52, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Did you have anything useful to say, or should I simply mention that personal attacks are against policy? Sam Spade 10:18, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Your accusations on my talk page are laughable. The only one I have been adressing in an admittedly unfriendly way is you, and that is because your own behaviour is completely annoying. You repeatedly edited political and historical articles in an obviously opinionated, NPOV, political rightist way, and when your edits are corrected you always start lamenting how NPOV everybody else is, using agressive language yourself, and not refraining from marking a whole article as disputed over a single word. Of all users I don't need YOU to teach me wikipedia ettiquette. -- 790 19:25, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

• 790 - do you have any opposition to removal of the POV tag?
• He said Hitler's death anniversary, not birth. I mis-read it the same way at first glance.
• Please refrain from personal attacks.

Guettarda 14:41, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

New ideas

I saw this article listed on Requests for comment, here are my thoughts:

• All political parties organize May marches, gatherings, and festivals with political speeches, those activities are not limited to right- and left-wing extremists. They just get the most attention from the media.

• The abrupt rise of violence this year was also due to the 60th anniversary of the end of the WW2 and the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

• The NPD is considered a Neo-Nazi-party and hostile to the German constitution, and the German government tried to prohibit them already back in 2003. But the court refused because the German government had infiltrated the party with informants. They keep on trying though.

• May day is still the most important day for labor unions, but unfortunatly they don't get much media coverage.

• The Walpurgisnacht and the custom of may poles are mainly rural traditions, urban regions pretty much concentrate on the political aspect.

• And yes, most people get drunk, celebrating May day with beer and wurst. ;=) Pharlap 14:01, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Since this article is somewhat controvertial at this moment, can you post your suggestions for change here and lets see what people think. Guettarda 14:41, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I think Pharlap is spot-on with all his comments. I'm in a very rural area (just villages mainly), and getting drunk and eating wurst occured in every village I know of, no matter how small (I went out, and drove thru many a village, and every last one had a wurst stand and people drinking beers and such). The political thing runs across every part of the spectrum, not just extremists. Ordinary, "boring" centrists lay claim to may day too, altho they scrap about it far less ;) As far as the NPD, essentially everybody thinks their nazis, and the fact that the people who turn up for their marches or events are largely skinheads kinda reinforces that idea. But they are not officially nazis, which would be illegal here in germany, so calling them nazi in the narrative is not ok. Officially, they are far right, oppose immigration, and support youth programs. They are even glad to joke about holocaust memorials and such [3] (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,339604,00.html). But officially Nazi? No. Sam Spade 15:28, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Spade,

May Day violence in Germany _has_ declined, I gave a source now (Berlin police press release) to end this nonsense. So what was your NPOV claim all about again? I think if I tolerate your fine distinction between Nazis on the one hand and the NPD on the other hand, although this can be considered at best technically correct, reflecting recent court decisions and above all the current NPD policy of trying to appear a little more democratic than they really are, you may please be so kind to recall your NPOV claim? Yes? Mr. Spade? Please? -- 790 19:46, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

What is this? (http://www.berlin.de/polizei/Presse/archiv/24766/index.htm)

fixed: [4] (http://www.berlin.de/polizei/Presse/archiv/24766/index.html); .html, not .htm

Sam Spade 20:56, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

It is a press release of the berlin police saying this years May 1st has been the most quiet for 20 years. Don't you speak german? Didn't you say you were from germany and new all about May Day in Berlin? Try http://babelfish.altavista.com/. -- 790 21:36, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

the link doesn't work. Sam Spade 21:38, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

may anyone else comment on this please, for me it works great. -- 790 21:56, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

The link doesn't work for me either. This is because the webserver sitting on that server is broken. So, your source can't be verified. This source (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1570453,00.html) seems to provide a mixed message at best, but as it states, Sunday is the real test. Wikibofh 23:13, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Trying 217.111.22.98...
Connected to www.berlin.de (217.111.22.98).
Escape character is '^]'.
GET /
HTTP/1.0 500 Internal Server Error
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Length: 178
<html><head><title>500 Internal Server Error</title></head><body>
<h1>500 Internal Server Error</h1><p>An internal server error occurred. 
Please try again later.
</p></body></html>Connection closed by foreign host.

that is very strange, I can access that page, and it is not in my browser cache. Returning to the dispute whether May 1st in Berlin has been the most quiet or the most violent in recent years, I would think that your source too supports my view that it has been quiet. This has nothing to do with what may happen if the NPD will have its march on Sunday, this article and the whole dispute is only about May 1st. -- 790 23:24, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

the point Davenbelle, and the usual suspect, why do you insist that this years May Day in Germany was the most violent in recent years, while I gave a link to an official statement by Berlins police saying that it has been the most quiet May Day in 20 years? -- 790 22:47, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

so you did read the discussion. What is wrong with my source? -- 790 22:59, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Look, your link (http://www.berlin.de/polizei/Presse/archiv/24766/index.htm) doesn't work. My link:

fixed: [5] (http://www.berlin.de/polizei/Presse/archiv/24766/index.html); .html, not .htm

• Fascists claim victory after day of violence (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,15157829%255E663,00.html) - NEO-nazi leaders claimed success yesterday after Germany's most violent May Day demonstration. - Neil Wilson - Leipzig - 03 may 05

says it was especially violent. For now, lets go w the link that works, ok? Sam Spade 23:27, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you are just talking about different cities? Your link is on Leipzig, in Berlin it was most peacefull 1. May for 20 years (Reuters (http://www.reuters.de/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=718944&section=news)). -guety is talking english bad 23:35, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Good point, Guety! I clarified that. Sam Spade 23:39, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

• I would vote for relatively peaceful versus remarkably but not enough to actually change it in the article.  :) Wikibofh 23:54, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

OK, done :) Sam Spade 23:57, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

that's clearly a progress, but I think you still get it a little wrong. let me suggest this. and watch it with that revert button, will you? -- 790 00:01, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

progress

We have now differentiated Liepzig and berlin, and clarified what was wrong w the link (it was copied wrong, prob. my fault). The 2 links don't contridict each other anyhow, since they were talking about different cities. Sam Spade 00:49, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

The last paragraph reads okay now, but I have difficulties with this sentence:

While Germany's economic prosperity during the last decades led to a decline of the workers' movement and of the political importance of May Day, since 1987 it has become known for heavy rioting by radical leftists

IMO it implies that the only ones still participating in may day activities are far right- and far left-wing organizations because labor unions and mainstream parties somehow lost their political enthusiasm. That's not the case. There is not even one labor union or party without a may day agenda - all labor unions and all parties use may day for political campaigns and activities. Also, with an unemployment rate of 12,5% nationwide (and 20,6% in east of Germany), it's not really a time of prosperity - the reason why especially labor union campaigns evoke a lively response from the population. Pharlap 17:51, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Please make whatever changes you feel are necessary, I'll provide suppressive fire Sam Spade 17:54, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Well then take care not to shoot your own foot. -- 790 12:36, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I removed the dispute header, based on a note on my talk by 790. It can be restored if someone articulates an objection, of course. Sam Spade 20:58, 12 May 2005 (UTC)