Talk:Jumping the shark

This has been done, or at any rate, the article has been substantially written in the ~2 years since the above comment. Ellsworth 22:40, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Multiple jumps/Ted McGinley

I think the Cosby Show deserves mention, as it jumped the shark several times: when Denise left, when they introduced that new little girl as Rudy got too old to fill that role, etc. Also, is mentioning Ted McGinley really worthwhile? Not without something of an explanation, I'd warrant. -R. fiend 15:15, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't believe that, under the definition used by the website, a show can "jump the shark several times", although occasionally on the site you'll see the notation "back and forth". Ellsworth 16:04, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ted McGinley has been on many television shows that have failed. I haven't seen if that has been explained, but I will do so if it hasn't. Mike H 18:24, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to back up the question of Ted McGinley being worthwhile, or more importantly, who says he's the patron saint of Shark Jumping? I'd never heard of this, and I just went over to IMDB and looked at his shows and his guest appearances, and while there are a couple of shows he was on that were then cancelled, I'm not sure you could say any of them were shows that jumped the shark, as most of them were young shows, and several I'd argue were very fresh shows that just didn't find their audience in the first place. Shark Jumping shows are cancelled cause they've gone downhill, not because they didn't make it in the first place, regardless of whether you or anyone else agree whether Sports Night or the John Laroquette show (to a much, much lesser degree) were good shows that didn't find their audiences. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions and it's based more squarely on some of the earlier stuff I'm less sure on the timing of, as I just looked again and he was also in some mroe established shows like Dynasty, and indeed Happy Days at some point, but the articles mentioned guest appearances in particular and those looked very thin to me... (Oneiros)

The idea that Ted McGinley is the patron saint of shark jumping was originated by the founder of jumptheshark.com, Jon Hein. If you want more information, I suggest you visit his Ted McGinley page[[1] (http://www.jumptheshark.com/ted.htm)]. Redfarmer 03:35, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Maude Flanders

Maude Flanders was not exactly a major charater, though she was recurring. I don;t think her death counts as jumping the shark.[[User:Nricardo|--Nelson Ricardo >>Talk<< (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Nricardo&action=edit&section=new)]] 23:57, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

If you go to jumptheshark.com, you'll notice that The Simpsons is one of a select few shows generally considered to have "never jumped," although with each new season fans increasing declare that the show is decline. Still, Maude Flanders' death has been cited by some as a "jump the shark" moment. --Feitclub 19:40, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

Sealab 2021

I don't believe the mention of Sealab 2021 is warranted. The show, in the instance of having a shark jump over a tank of Fonzies, was parodying the classic Happy Days episode, something that has been done by several other shows (most notably, The Simpsons and That '70s Show). This does not constitute a jump the shark moment.

I will delete that part of the entry in 48 hours unless someone can provide me with a rationalle for keeping it up. -- Redfarmer 17:18, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm totally with you on that. The Simpsons also parodied the idea of "jumping the shark" in the clip show "Gump Roast," where Homer literally jumps the shark. Strangely, on Jump the Shark (http://www.jumptheshark.com) some users have listed that as a moment when The Simpsons had declined. Szyslak 02:24, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Possible combination?

Should we combine sections two and three? Put specific examples under the general category?

Because if we're not, then there's no reason for adding those JTS terms (which I think really belong over there and not here) in bold to the entries.

Daniel Case 2005-02-01 1:08 a.m. EST

Not jumping

In the "Examples of shows said to have jumped the shark" section are lots of examples I would not count as "jumping the shark." A lot of the examples are big changes to a series without making it worse, individual bad episodes, or gradual declines in quality over time - I think these don't count as shark-jumping. The article lays out fairly well that "jumping the shark" is a sudden and irrevocable hit, a point-of-no-return. Examples of things in the list which I do *not* consider to be jumping the shark: Louie Anderson's revival of Family Feud, Homer Simpson becoming "much stupider in later seasons", original Star Trek episodes which were terrible while the series itself remained strong until the end, and people watching Teletubbies to see if the purple character was gay. None of these are pivotal damning points in a series. - Brian Kendig 00:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Length

Is the intent to upload the whole web site here? Most of these examples are highly subjective, and the categories keep elaborating on a few general ideas (e.g. a major cast change). Why not trim to the most blatant examples? Gazpacho 03:08, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm tempted to agree with you and Brian Keding above. People seem to be listing any potential jump the shark moment, whether or not it actually signaled or caused a severe downturn in the show's quality or popularity. "Life With Bonnie"? I've not seen the show but it's been on for, what, a couple years? That change must have happened in the first season or so, hardly enough time to see if it was a real quality show before or if it's getting much worse. Most shows start to go downhill after many seasons, and picking an arbitrary moment and giving it undue significance is dumb (would anyone have even noticed Maude Flanders' death if it weren't for the episode in which it occurred, and 1 or 2 afterwards where they reference it?). This list is too long and arbitrary. Click the website link to get the details and discussions. The only one's that really deserve mention are the ones where a clear change for the worse was made, like the Brady Bunch's Oliver, the new kid on Family Ties, (I'd almost argue Urkel, but the show wasn't good to begin with, and got more popular with his arrival, though it marked a new low in television in general (Ok, slight exaggeration)) and others like that. This should be addressed. -R. fiend 14:44, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I came here to suggest that the inherently subjective list of 'shark jump' moments be removed. Since I find people have already suggested it, I've gone ahead and done it. There is a whole website where people can discuss these moments. DJ Clayworth 17:49, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, maybe a bit extreme, but I have no problem with it. However, I think just a couple examples could maybe be added into the text to illustrate the point. Not having them as a list would prevent it from growing to the bloated extent it had been. This would still have a few problems of subjectivity, so I won't really press it. -R. fiend 18:06, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I was going to add some jump moment nominations for Buffy the Vampire Slayer only to find the section had been removed overnight. Buffy had the most jumps nominated which shows I am not the only one who thinks the show seemed to try to jump nearly every week (I finally stopped watching after the fifth season). I hope I didn't add too much to the paragraph on Buffy. I think the show deserves a special mention for a possible jump attempt record. 68.6.237.125 19:09, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC) (I prefer to remain anonymous. I don't want everyone to know I was a Buffy fan.)

Was there really a specific bad decision during the course of Buffy, in an attempt to revitalize it, which ended up dooming the show thereafter? If not, then it didn't jump the shark. I didn't follow Buffy, but it seems to have remained strong through the end. - Brian Kendig 19:15, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[plug] I'm a moderator on a discussion forum with a current and highly active thread asking when it jumped [/plug]; so far there have been about thirteen different suggestions (some vague - such as "the whole of season 6", some specific - such as "the wedding episode"), and several denials that it ever jumped at all. My personal vote went to the moment in season 5 when it became clear that the Buffy/Spike 'ship was going to be taken seriously; it looked like a weak attempt to draw in a bigger audience, and forced the whole story for the remainder of the series. I think that fulfils your terms... Kinitawowi 10:35, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to see a few good examples recovered from that list and put back into the article. The aforementioned Brady Bunch and Family Ties kid additions were certainly "jump the shark" moments. Another was Ellen; her "coming out" quickly turned the show into a commentary on gay issues and killed it within a season. - Brian Kendig 19:11, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There were somethings in the list that I agreed with, while there were others that I really didn't agree with. It might have been better to add a note that some of the shows are debateable, or even make another article(s). I don't have a problem with it though.

Well, the problem is all the shows are debatable; there's even a link right to the debate itself which is at jumptheshark.com. I do think some of the typical jump the shark moments can be illustrated with some examples (the introductions of the new kids seem to be the most clear examples for me, maybe becuase they're such a blatant ploy that is bound to fail). Bringing back the list in full, or even a substantial part, is not a good idea, I am now convinced. -R. fiend 19:32, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah that true. There will always be debates about whether a show or shows has ever jumped or not. It doesn't bother me that the list is gone.

My suggestion would be to have shows discuss their criticisms and shark jumping moments listed in that show's article. Every show may end up linking here that way but that's probably more managable and easier to NPOV. Also, this information is already available at jumptheshark.com so we don't have to really give too many examples anyway. :) --Sketchee 02:58, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Don't delete stuff

A note to 205.188.116.73, 64.12.116.73, and others: Please don't delete other people's comments from this talk page. - Brian Kendig 02:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Subjectivity warning

Since there seems no resolution to issue of whether or not to include the list of examples, I add a warning regarding the subjectivity of the list - 'cos I don't know about the rest of you, but every entry on that list I agree with, there's at least one I don't. Lokicarbis 12:41, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Putting a few examples back in

It seems most people feel that the removal of the list was a good move, but there is still some feeling that a few examples should be mentioned to illustrate the point (beyond the obvious Happy Days one). I was thinking that where it mentions some of the common jump the shark moments, an exmaple or two could be added to the most common and damaging tpypical moments. Removal of a main character, introduction of a new character (the "cute kid" being the best example, in my opinion), main characters marrying/having sex, and a cliche plot device are some of the best examples. Some examples I think rarely qualify, like changing when a show airs (happens all the time and rarely has an impact in the show itself), clips shows (lame in themselves, but seldom alter a show), merchandising, and others are usually not relevant. Anyone want to suggest 5 or 6 of the most egregious shark jumping moments, or is it better without any examples at all? -R. fiend 21:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm okay with a few examples. Cite the source though. Just say that a "jumptheshark.com poll claims" such and such as examples. If the reference is claiming it and not Wikipedia then I guess it's clear that it is not a fact but someone's opinion. (Though it's a fact the site states it.) :) Beyond that encyclopedic overview, everything the reader wants to know is on jumptheshark.com already anyway and we've linked it. Sketchee 04:13, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

Well, as far as the main characters having sex goes, Moonlighting is probably still the classic example (although a case can be made for The Nanny, among others)... It occurs to me that perhaps we should also include counter-examples of these - the same circumstance, but generally agreed not to be a sharkjumping moment. But those could be even harder to come by... Lokicarbis 04:09, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

Subjectivity will always be a problem with things like this, but if we can't say with some certainty at some point that any show had ever jumped the shark then we have no business saying such a phenomenon actually exists in an encyclopedic context. As for the having sex, yeah, Moonlighting is a good example, I guess. As a personal aside though, I have to mention Northern Exposure. I rarely watched the show, but I still recall 2 or 3 times when the two main characters had sex, and each time they still wanted to portray it as a groundbreaking event, as if each was "the first time" after long periods of slowly building sexual tension. It didn't work. Still not worth mentioning in the article; I just felt like saying it. -R. fiend 04:47, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to do whatever it takes the list back in, and nobody's going to stop me; I'll just re-put in the examples that are not too "sexual", you know what I mean, like how Who's the Boss? jumped with sex relations?--Roadrunner3000 00:00, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Removal of Buffy from References section

I took it out simply because it's a theorised reference - every other one is an actual reference that occurred in the show, not an interpretation. Lokicarbis 08:46, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that it would be a marginal thing for most shows, but Buffy was always about subtext, so such an unstated refrence is to be expected; I'm saying it should be included. There was even a talking shark in one episode, for pete's sake. Thanks,
Luc "Somethingorother" French 10:09, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I had forgotten the talking shark... although surely he should be listed in the references if he's that emblematic Lokicarbis 10:57, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)
  - Remove it; the character is there for a different joke entirely (Spike owes him kittens; i.e. a loan shark...) Kinitawowi 18:10, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)

South Park

South Park had a clip show in its second or third season which includes several shark jump references: clip-show flashbacks ("Who wants ice cream?"), an it-was-all-a-dream ending, and if I remember correctly, a flashback to the Happy Days shark jumping episode (where the Fonz accidentally kills Kenny).

I can't remember all the details, but I just thought I'd bring that up in case anyone wants to add it

-sims

Simpsons

This is to Boarshevik: I saw that final clip where Homer jetskiied over the shark, and I'm pretty certain the song said "we'll have ideas for years" (especially because that flows a lot better). Anyone else who saw that clip please weigh in here. -RomeW

Happy Days

HD may have produced 100 episodes after the shark jump episode - but they also stopped trying to have era-appropriate hairstyles and clothing, introduced Chachi... PMA 11:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I hate to be a killjoy here, but it's only a few weeks back that we cut the number of entries down to a manageable number. Now everybody has just added the name of their favourite show and when they think it jumped. Since there is a whole website dedicated to this, can't we just cut it down to a few (i.e. <10) example of special significance? Everything except the Happy Days entry is really just somebody's opinion. DJ Clayworth 21:54, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

New Link

In response to Clayworth's comments, I have created a new article called "List of shows that have Jumped the shark" and moved the complete list of entries to that page. A link to the new article is on this original page, located in the space where the original list was.

This list will differ from the JTS website in a few ways – there will be a limited number of short-lived programs (most short-lived shows are inferior programs whose JTS moment is "Day One"); and NO PROFANITY (the JTS site is littered with f- and sh- words, etc. in its entries). Otherwise, new additions can be added anytime so long as they are a legitimate JTS moment.

Hope this helps! User:Briguy52748 09:18, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I understand the desire to keep some of this, but the real trouble is that the whole list is subjective. No two people are going to agree about when this or that series "jumped the shark". Encyclopedias are here to provide factual information, not opinions. Imagine how much trouble we would get if we had an article "ten best television shows". This is just as bad. Plus I think we had just such an article as proposed above, and it was voted for deletion. DJ Clayworth 20:16, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Clayworth – Thanks for your response. However, please note that the new article has an advisory (as had the previous version of this article with the list) that the shows listed in the article are subjective and that people will likely disagree with some of the items on the list. In addition, the new article has been retitled List of shows that are widely considered to have Jumped the shark to make it more NPOV. User:Briguy52748 15:48, 5 May 2005 (UTC). (an addendum at 18:25 5 May 2005 by User:Briguy52748 -- Also, note that many other articles (e.g., the flop article and various links contained therein) have lists that, even though a majority of people agree with them, are in reality subjective in nature and thus subject to POV opinions. In addition, it should be pointed out that even with some entries I added, I actually disagree with the JTS moments, but yet I referenced those moments in recognition of others' opinions).

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