Talk:Joseph Conrad

Conrad and Racism

This is a very touchy subject. The section on "Criticism" and accusation that Conrad was a racist does not belong here. In Heart of Darkness Conrad painted a very negative picture of colonialism. Yes, by today's standards his text regarding Africans is most definitely crude, however, this is reflective of the state of affairs at the time -- We should not make insane assumptions about Conrad's character simply because he was honest about how the Africans were treated. If he were to have written the story any differently then it would not accurately reflect history. Was Conrad being derogatory towards Blacks, or was he being derogatory towards Whites? I would say the latter. I think it's quite obvious that his words are aimed to hurt the oppressors, and not the oppressed.

From reading Conrad's stories you can come to a lot of different conclusions -- and I think to avoid conflict on this one it's probably best to not have a section on Conrad being a racist. The old section not only said he was a racist, but also implied that the general consensus is that he was a racist -- This is simply not true -- certainly not in the acedemic circles I am active in. Let's not create false/unprovable truths through mass misinformation and selective presentation of opinions.

In order to label him a racist one would have to possess real proof -- such as letters he sent to friends or family, in which he was openly racist -- do we have these? I don't think so. An essay written which takes words and phrases out of context in order to push a biased agenda does not qualify as proof -- but rather is better qualified as 'opinion'. Can we honestly say that Conrad was a racist based on some guy's opinion? I don't think so.

Does it matter what the critics say? I don't think it does. Let's let people read Conrad's material and come to their own conclusions. Injecting pre-conceived notions in to their minds will only cause them to look for problems that may or may not exist.

So let's just leave this section out, okay? It's misleading and really takes away from an otherwise good article.

--Animus9 22:25 May 19, 2005

The fact of the matter is that the debate regarding Conrad's racism or lack thereof (the section as I wrote was intentionally NPOV on the actual determination) has eclipsed almost all other discussion regarding Heart of Darkness and Conrad as a whole. I suggest for starters that you read Achebe's essay; the version I have linked unfortunately is the "revised" version later toned down by the author (I can't find the original online), but is still the "essay heard round the world". You will also find in there that Achebe did, in fact, cite letters and Conrad's personal journal, the "real proof" you're referring to.

Clearly, labelling Conrad a racist is an opinion. The criticism section does not do that, it simply refers to an ongoing debate and a POV which is labelled as a POV. Failing to mention it is, while not NPOV in itself, clearly omitting important information from the article and more misleading than its inclusion.

Do not mistake me; I'm not myself posessed with the need to interpret Conrad's work exclusively in the light of race relations. However, I have to acknowledge that this is currently the most debated element of the man's work. I myself researched extensively on Heart of Darkness (wrote a thesis on it), and dug into more than forty sources across the whole of the 20th century, and can vouch for the unfortunate fact that the debate is both real and overwhelmingly prevalent. As such, I believe this article needs to include some information on the topic; if you want to work with me on just what that information needs to be, I'm open to discussion. As it stands, I'm going to restore the section in question. siafu 07:40, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Intentionally NPOV? Excuse me, but you have intentionally changed the last statement which clearly labelled him a racist:

"Whether or not Conrad was a racist, however, seems rather clear in that he was; whether or not he was more racist than the average of his time is less clear, and the debate is far from settled."

This certainly was NOT NPOV. It had an agenda, and still does. Calling someone a racist carries with it as much weight as actually being racist. It is not something to toss around lightly.

Achebe's essay is weak. There is NOT adequate proof (in the essay) to claim Conrad was racist. Much of it is based entirely upon readingly deeply into subtle word meanings. The 'real' proof is not real proof at all. It is a couple out of context sentences.

Controversy about whether or not Conrad was racist is mainly popular due to misinformation and ignorance. Wikipedia should not be participating in these shenanigans. The proof is inadequate, therefore the section should not exist. This is not a tabloid for gossip or questionable information. Animus9 8:21 May 20, 2005

It's implicit in the sentence now; I thought you would find it more palatable. It is not a matter of gossip, misinformation and ignorance to say that this is a big deal, because it is. Since 1975, almost every single paper on HoD makes mention of Achebe's essay. Whether or not YOU think Achebe is on to something is up to you, but it is a popular argument; whether or not you want that to be true is also not relevant.

Conrad was a racist. This should surprise no one; he grew up in anti-semitic Poland, and lived in Victorian England. There were relatively few people in either place who were not what we would label in the modern day as "racists". This is widely accepted; the debate centers on whether he was more posessed of these ideas than was average for his time and place. Therefore, the original sentence was not POV, but you labelled the entire thing as misleading, so I changed it to sit better with your objections.

I'm not trying to push an agenda. The fact is that the essay is an incredibly big deal, and as such we need to call it a big deal. The fact is that Conrad thought less of black people than he did of Europeans. I'm willing to not say that explicitly because there are a lot of other similar facts that aren't mentioned, so pointing this one out could be misleading (as you said), and this itself is not a big deal (as mentioned, pretty common for the time). But it's not POV to point these things. I would suggest that if you see this as "gossip" or a "shenanigan" that you do some research; go to an academic library and search under literary criticism for "heart of darkness". The results will bear out the reality of this debate. siafu 16:27, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Nobody is saying the debate doesn't exist. The argument is whether or not it is worth mentioning. Anybody that writes an essay accusing a well known author of being racist is going to create quite a stir -- but the importance of the essay or its convictions should not be based on how big of a stir it creates, but rather whether or not its arguments are valid. I don't think they are valid -- in fact I think the arguments are rather weak. Your point of view is that they are valid -- but you base this mainly upon the fact that people are stirred up about it -- so what? How many people are going to take the stance that the essay is BS? Not very many.. you know why? because they will be accused of being a racist.

I have read the essay, I have read many essays about Heart of Darkness. It seems many of these essays either repeat the same themes or are essentially essays about prior essays. So what? The essay writers are just rehashing the same material and justifying the existence of their arguments based on the fact that all the other essay writers are saying the same.

Let me remind you that these essays are a subjective analysis, and the conclusions drawn have little to do with the reality of Conrad the man. Neither you, nor I knew Conrad personally, so we cannot say he was racist -- and I think you're crossing an awfully blurry line when you start using the popularity of an argument to justify its existence. Let's not forget that "the earth is flat" argument used to be rather popular.

The problem with the Criticisms section is that you can't really be neutral about calling someone a racist. You've reworded the section so that it is more subtle but it is still flawed. You are providing a single POV. Where are the links to the essays arguing against Achebe's essay? How do we know that Achebe's essay is "the single most famous piece of criticism on Joseph Conrad" ...? are there statistics indicating this? or is it only famous because people think it's famous?

The Criticisms section in its current state is flawed. My own personal opinion is that we could save a whole lot of trouble just by removing it and letting people come to their own conclusions, however, in the spirit of compromise I will see if I can come up with something a little more neutral. --198.163.150.33 17:48, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The essay exists. It should be mentioned; but not at the present length in an article this size which includes relatively little other criticism or political assessment of Conrad. Omitting the contemporary reception of Conrad - as a blow at Belgian and European colonialism - is disingenuous; asserting "Conrad is racist" as fact is POV; as this discussion should prove. Septentrionalis 20:17, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Right, I don't disagree. Mentioning it is one thing, in fact I intentionally left the essay in the external links when I removed the section. However, in its current state the section gives the reader the wrong impression. --Animus9 17:00, 20 May 2005

Unfortunately, the fact is that Achebe's essay is probably to most influential critical work on Conrad in the last fifty years. It sparked a firestorm of debate, and it's said firestorm that the section refers to. Moving the section is fine, but it seems that I've been fighting an uphill battle here to demonstrate that what is a rather big deal is not just "gossip" or a "shenanigan". I'm not reporting these things because I want them to be true, I wrote the section because the debate is an overwhelming (overwhelmingly stupid) fact. I myself have done a great deal of research on HoD; I don't personally think it's very productive or informative to see Conrad as merely a racist, or his book as related to racial politics.

As to Conrad himself being a racist, this is not the strong claim it's being taken to be in this discussion. Saying Conrad was a racist is to point out that he was at least of the common POV of the era; he was certainly no sort of egalitarian in the modern sense. It would be exceptional for him to have not been a racist, and unfortunately this has given a great deal of ammunition to Achebe and those who support his POV. siafu 23:36, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

"he grew up in anti-semitic Poland" could you explain that please?--Witkacy 20:39, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Also, why exactly are criticisms regarding Heart of Darkness on the general page of Joseph Conrad? Shouldn't these criticisms be within the article for Heart of Darkness itself? --Animus9 22:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The Lagoon

The Lagoon, by Conrad, isn't on Gutenberg; also a Google search for probable keywords didn't return a useful text. There is a link to eBooks@Adelaide ,but it requires another out-of-wikipedia link to get to the story. The Lagoon also has no Wikipedia article and no Wikisource source. I just wanted to note that.