Talk:Holy Land

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Is "Holy Land" used only by Christians? Does the equivalent translations get used by Jews, Muslims, Bahais,...? -- Error

Arḍ ul-Quds and al-Quds the same thing?

Is it your claims that Arḍ ul-Quds and al-Quds are the same thing? Jayjg 17:13, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I can't hear your pronunciation though that white block coming out your mouth. If you mean "Ard". Ard is land. al-Quds is holy and refers to the holy places of Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem. The land of the holy places does not change definition for Muslims even during periods of foreign occupation by Crusaders or Zionists. --Alberuni 17:35, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The article here says that the term for Holy Land is "Arḍ ul-Quds". The Jerusalem article says that the term for Jerusalem is "al-Quds". Now, we know that the region of Meccan and Medina is called "Arḍ ul-Quds"; the question is, it Jerusalem ever called that, or is it simply called "al-Quds"? Jayjg 17:39, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Don't take my word for it. Go ask a Muslim, if you can find one who will talk to you. --Alberuni 17:44, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So are you saying "yes", Jerusalem is referred to as "Ard ul-Quds"? Jayjg 17:47, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

ِI hadn't heard the term before personally (my Arabic is getting rusty, alas), but a quick Google search suggests that it refers to Palestine as a whole, the "Land of Jerusalem". - Mustafaa 22:46, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, that makes sense. (It's an LDS convention as well, but it's not the sole reason it makes sense to me.) - Gilgamesh 01:11, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"The word Al-Quds, as mentioned in the authoriative Arab Dictionary, Lisanul-Arab (Arab Tongue) under the stem Quds means glorification of Allah."; why do you say it means "holy"? And how do you respond to the statement that "Ard al-Quds" refers to "Land of Jerusalem", not "Holy Land"? Do you have any links which translate it this way (aside from Wikipedia based ones)? Jayjg 15:41, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The primary meaning of "al-Quds" is Jerusalem; its etymological meaning is "holy", which is still used but is less common in practice. It is cognate to Hebrew Qodesh, incidentally. - Mustafaa 16:34, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm not sure where this leaves us; would an Arab speaker understand "Ard al Quds" as meaning "land of Jerusalem" or "Holy Land"? Is there any other way of saying "Holy Land" in Arabic? Interesting about Qodesh, by the way. Jayjg 16:37, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, now you mention it, one could also say "al-Ard al-Muqaddasah", a term which a quick search shows is attested in the Qur'an (al-Ma'idah 21), described in early Islamic tradition by az-Zujaj as "Damascus, Palestine, and a bit of Jordan", and by Qatada as "the Levant (ash-Sham)" and by Maad ibn Jabal as "the area between al-Arish and the Euphrates", and by Ibn Abbas as "the land of Jericho".[1] (http://www.islamonline.net/Arabic/In_Depth/Palestine/articles/2004_09/article19.shtml) I think this is probably a better translation of "Holy Land" than "Ard al-Quds". "Holy Valley", incidentally, is a Qur'anic epithet of Tuwa, the valley where God told Moses to go to Pharaoh. - Mustafaa 17:25, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ِAlberuni, do you have any citations for the use of "Holy Land" in Islamic contexts to refer to the Hijaz? I'm not sure I've come across that usage. - Mustafaa 17:28, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In the Qur'an, Holy Land refers to the Levant, the land of Jerusalem where Musa (Moses) led his followers. Non-Muslims seem very intent on excluding Muslims from the Holy land by claiming that "the Muslims holy land is Saudi Arabia, not Palestine". I would estimate that the term "Holy Land" is used today by English-speaking Muslims to refer to Palestine 99% of the time and the Hijaz maybe 1% of the time, for instance, [2] (http://al-islam.org/restatement/2.htm): "The twin cities of Makkah and Medina are in the province of Hijaz. Hijaz, therefore, is the holy land of Islam." Perhaps Muslims are more spiritual and less material than those who think that the Holy Land is more holy to them than others. "Malik related to me from Yahya ibn Said that Abu'd-Darda wrote to Salman al-Farsi, "Come immediately to the holy land." Salman wrote back to him, "Land does not make anyone holy. Man's deeds make him holy." (Muwatta Hadith #37.8.7) --Alberuni 18:32, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh... I thought you were the one arguing for inclusion of the Hijaz, which is why I hesitated to remove it, since I figured you would know. I think I've cleared up the article a bit now. - Mustafaa 18:55, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, obviously it's our resident fanatic Zionist who wishes to relegate the Muslim Holy land to any place other than the Holy Land that has been occupied by Zionists. --Alberuni 19:10, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

According to Osama bin Ladin, "For more than seven years the United States is occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of its territories, Arabia, plundering its riches, overwhelming its rulers, humiliating its people, threatening its neighbors, and using its bases in the peninsula as a spearhead to fight against the neighboring Islamic peoples."[3] (http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm) Many other sources, feel the same way, such as: "To begin with, we say that the hostile, treacherous, and lowly conduct of the Najd and al-Hijaz rulers practically removes the sanctity of the holy land because it was turned into a scene for the infidel Americans and their British allies who use this land as a springboard for the daily attacks on the sincere believers in great Iraq. [4] (http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1999/02/990217_in.htm) "in the Holy Land of Hijaz" [5] (http://deoband.8m.net/custom2.html) "According to Prophetic tradition, the Arabian Peninsula is sacred territory. Non-Muslims are forbidden to set foot there. The sanctity of this sacred territory has been violated since the emergence of the House of Saud in control of the Haramain... How this monstrosity came to be imposed on such a holy land of Islam is a story that needs to be told in detail." [6] (http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/features98/saud1.htm) "the holy land of Hijaz." [7] (http://www.satribune.com/thread.jsp?forum=3&thread=2148) "The twin cities of Makkah and Medina are in the province of Hijaz. Hijaz, therefore, is the holy land of Islam." [8] (http://al-islam.org/restatement/2.htm). etc. These Muslim voices and many others are quite emphatic that the Hijaz is the "Holy Land" of Islam; many other Muslim sources referring to Israel as the Holy Land appear to be following older English convention rather than making a religious claim. Jayjg 19:05, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The usage doesn't seem "much more rare" to me, perhaps you'd like to look at that. Jayjg 19:07, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Most of your references are to "a holy land" rather than "the Holy Land"; "Holy Land" is used in the Qur'an only once, and that's to refer to Palestine. The Bin Laden ones are also suspect, as politically motivated. However, a couple of your citations do provide evidence that modern Muslims, unlike traditional ones, occasionally call the Hijaz "the Holy Land"; this usage should duly be noted. As for the usage, Google seems to confirm what I would have assumed was obvious: that the Qur'anic usage predominates. - Mustafaa 19:12, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Response delayed by edit conflict....Appropriate that you Jayjg would quote Osama, another religious fanatic. several of the quotes you pulled are translations and they don't say THE Holy Land, they say "a holy land". Of course, Mecca and Medina are a holy land. That doesn't mean they are "The Holy Land" which in the Qur'an definitely refers to the land of the Jerusalem valley, Palestine. --Alberuni 19:16, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Just to quell any remaining doubts: I just checked one of the more authoritative Arabic-English dictionaries, Hans Wehr's, and it gives the meaning of "al-ard al-muqaddasa" quite simply as "the Holy Land, Palestine", without even mentioning the Hijaz. - Mustafaa 22:19, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)