Talk:Heaven
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I find it very interesting that all of the religions of the earth, both modern and from the past, associate the abode of the gods as being in the sky, even the Chriatian concept of Heaven. This in itself should lead some weight to the belief that the gods are aliens who don't come just from anywhere in the sky, but a specific planet. The gods did not have as great a power as we think, but had technology that we now are just discovering.
Some day our people may meet their gods and be surprised when they find out they are just as motal as we are.
This is obviously a major topic, and it was disappointing to see the idiotic comments someone else posted originally.
I'd really like to see the concept of "The Afterlife" discussed in some depth, acknowledging the beliefs of not only the major religions, but also the beliefs of indigenous religions such as the Native American tribes, the various African Animist faiths, etc.
This is certainly not my area of expertise, but it is well worthy of inclusion in the Wikipedia.
From Heaven, third paragraph: "...those who do not meet the criteria go to a place of punishment, hell."
"hell" should properly be capitalized here, no?
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The idea of heaven (as viewed in a Christian POV) is far removed from what Christ Jesus taught.
He viewed Heaven, not as a place where all righteous mankind (within spiritual context) were to reside, but as the capital city of God's Kingdom.
"The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool," God said. (Isaiah 66:1)
Person's who had lived a "good life" were not to go to Heaven, but reside on Earth. "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:29)
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."—Matthew 5:5
"Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth."—Psalm 37:9
"The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it."—Proverbs 2:21, 22
So, the question arises for most Christianity, "If I lead a 'good life', why do I die, and what happens to me after I die?" The Bible says that sin causes death. It also states that when you die nothing remains of you.
Romans 5:12 tells us: "Through one man [Adam, mankind's forefather] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned [by inheriting imperfection, that is, sinful tendencies]." "You [will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19) Simply stated, the Bible teaches that death is the opposite of life. At Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, we read: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going."
"Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish."-Psalm 146:3, 4
"The soul that is sinning-it itself will die," the Bible emphatically states. (Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Acts 3:23; Revelation 16:3)
Here we see that Earth is not a "proving ground" and Heaven the reward.
Yes, this page could use some work. Why not take a scientific approach. Who says there is a heaven? Why do they say? Are there witnesses? Are there good eveidences? What do we mean by heaven? When we say heaven, are we atalking about the eternal world? Hawstom 07:38, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I removed this POV interpretation that was added without attribution. I am not sure it ieven has place in the article.
- Bible tells us that a few people including Apostles will go to heaven to rule the people in the earth (John 14:1-3; Rev. 5:9,10; 14:1-5), and the others including David will receive the earth to live forever(Matt. 5:5; Acts 2:34; Rev. 21:3-5).
Please advise. Tom 16:59, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I think you've made a defensible decision. Mkmcconn
- I think so, too. Tom, please explain why you removed and why you are not sure.K.M. 05:50, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, I, Tom (Hawstom), think this article is primarily about what is Heaven like, and not about who is going to end up in heaven. And the quote above probably belongs better on the JW page. Tom 04:13, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Besides my belief that we should be moving this article away from being a discussion of who is going to heaven, I can see that K.M.'s edits are POV for two reasons. First, they are inserted with an apparent willingness to degrade article consistency and quality (something a veteran Wikipedian should be past) in order to get POV inserted. Second, the POV has been inserted in a POV manner ("the Bible says"). If the bad faith POV insertion had been done in a NPOV manner, it would have been hard to impugn (after all, we all have agendas that sometimes creep in). But when done without careful NPOVization, it is subject to reversion by the first Wikipedian who comes along. Tom (hawstom) 04:34, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
But rather than simply edit or revert the questionable edit, I think this article could benefit from some group soul searching, and this edit may be just the occasion for it. So I propose we open the discussion on two issues: 1) How might K.M. fix his insertions? 2) What is this article about anyway? Tom (hawstom) 04:34, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I changed my insertion, so please be cool. K.M. 05:35, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Heaven in Buddhism
Just a curious question. We apply the same word 天(Ten, jap. heaven) for the Heaven in Christianity and for Buddhism. IIRC 天 are one of six world types where all souls continue to reincarnate. The Pure Land is one of them. Some Boddhisattvas are predicted "coming from a certain Heaven" like Miroku-Boddhisattva from Tosotsu-ten. How call people this concept in English? Heaven or another term? My knowledge on this issue are very narrow and I'm regretful I cannot contribute well. KIZU 12:41, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The only terms that I can think of that might suffice are Heaven, Afterlife, or Eternity or Eternal World. I might more accurately call it the Real World. It sure is good to have you here contributing, and I hope to see some of your input and discussion. Tom (hawstom) 05:09, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Though I don't know closely Buddhist comcepts (it's not my belief and very complicated), according to the buddhist documents (Sutras),
- There are many world, and they exists in some way simultinously. Some are bad, some are good.
- There are six phases of the world, or simply there are six worlds, and Ten(Heaven) is one of them and the best.
Interestingly those Buddhist "Heaven"s are not "Eternal Worlds", because there is nothing eternal according to their belief. Everyone reincarnates unless they reach to the Nirvana, so even in the Heaven people must die someday and go to the other world or reincarnate there in another shape. Even if they enjoyed a life of ten thousand years, they must die and reincarnate. As for Pure Land I read some Buddhist priests said "the purpose of the reborn in to the Pure Land is the return from there to here to spread the wonderfulness of the Pure Land. KIZU 13:34, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hmm. It seems like it would be nice to have some kind of article that covers a general concept of an existence greater than this one. Your input from Buddhism is very insightful. I see that currently we have the following articles that deal more generally with this area, along with the definitions Wikipeida gives:
- Afterlife, something spiritual that you experience when you die
- Underworld, any place to which newly dead souls go, a term normally used (by unbelievers?) in mythology and religion studies
- Heaven, a place not of this world or of happy rest or bliss
- Hell, the place of the dead or alternatively of torment. Good umbrella article.
Of course there are numberless other terms in other languages that have different shades of meaning for afterlife or underworld, but it would be good to mastermind the organization of all these articles under one or two umbrella articles about a real and amply referenced, but disputed and variously conceptualized, existence that is beyond this one. Tom (hawstom) 14:29, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
I would hope that the general Buddhist contribution to the understanding of afterlife would be able to be distilled into some umbrella article. Tom (hawstom) 14:29, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
- Your idea is smart, though I'm afraid I miss your point. It's good for Wikipedia to have a well-designed tree of articles. I saw in fr.wiki a guide at the end of each articles to guide. For example religion - Greek religion - and so on. Having both such a linear guide and a list of particular notions works well as far as they are well designed. Off course we engage a bunch of problematic notions, we cannot avoid disputing. For Buddhist notions I suppose it's better we call for contributions on some notepages of particular Buddhist concept such as Pure Land than we will try to make a scribble; we are laity on those subjects. BTW WikiLove is a good term, I like it. I thank you letting me know this idea, Tom. KIZU 15:59, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
I propose Afterlife to be the organizational hub of this genre of article. The other contenders for a hub article would be underworld and eschatology, but I don't think either of those terms works as well as Afterlife. I am intrigued by your description of the fr.wiki hierarchy guides. Perhaps such could be added to these articles. Tom (hawstom) 14:32, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Afterlife Reorganization
I am starting the ball rolling on an afterlife articles reorganization. I will create a list of Articles about Afterlife and try to organize them all to reduce redundancy and improve utility. I made a few edits accordingly. Tom (hawstom) 20:44, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
capitalisation
I capitalised most of it.
Heaven is a place, albeit a fictional one, and therefore should be capitalised. One however, can write of heavens in general with a small h. Dunc_Harris|☺ 10:23, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Calvinism
This may or may not stir up discussion.
I removed the little bit that said that Calvinism was an example of how some religions thought that Predestination was the way they entered heaven. This is true... sort of. The problem is that in the sentence previous it outlines the Arminian position which states that only those who trust in the deity and in his method of salvation can enter heaven. Strangely enough this is the Calvinist position as well!
To put it in more theological terms - both Arminians and Calvinists believe that Jesus was sent by God to die for the sins of the world. Both Arminians and Calvinists believe that only those who place their trust in the death and resurrection of Christ will go to heaven. Arminians and Calvinists differ over the place of free-will and determinism in how this placing of trust occurs. One Salient Oversight 01:28, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Well, can you say as much in the article? I think having the views properly attributed is desirable. Tom 02:47, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Okay - I'll attempt it. One Salient Oversight 03:25, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Bible: where does it say you go to heaven when you die?
I notice that the article refers to the Bible in the section regarding the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. Can anyone include some references to the relevant sections of the bible to substantiate the other Christian beliefs? i.e. that one will go to heaven even if that are not one of the 144,000? --Rebroad 23:59, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, I'll bite. You do have to apply a context to biblical passages - it's not a legal document that outlines each and every contingency and gives pertinent definitions. That's part of the reason that Jesus taught His disciples - so that they could spread the important parts of His message and explain what was meant by various things He & they had said. If you're looking for specific verses, I've got a couple that are generally taken to describe heaven and what happens when you die.
- "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. . . . Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:2-4,6)
- Paul (who would have a pretty good idea of what Jesus was talking about) has the best-known (if not directly explicit) explanation of God's promise: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him" (I Cor.2:9)
- Now, clearly I'm no theologian, but I can find verses for a few things if I check the index on my Bible... Like I said, though, the Bible's not written to be a legal document. It takes interpretation. Priests and the Pope interpret for Catholics and their interpretations are all standardized, so you can check Catholic dogma if you're looking for detailed, legalese on heaven. Protestant views are, of course, more diverse and each group has slightly different versions of interpretations, but I think most would accept the few verses I give here as being a good starting point for understanding Heaven. --ABQCat 05:30, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Hmm. My favorite would be "The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man" in which Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom and the rich man goes to hell (good because its from the mouth of Jesus). Tom Haws 18:51, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
Heaven in Islam?
Wow, not even a word is mentioned.--Zereshk 03:20, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Removing never never land
I removed the "See also" link to never never land. "Never Never Land" is a euphemism for death, not Heaven. It would be more appropriate to include a link to death. The very words "never" indicate the opposite of what Heaven (traditionally) signifies. -- Jwinters | Talk 18:03, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)