Talk:Hardcore punk
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how do you add to the regional scenes in the table?
I have started a music genre stub for Australian hardcore (with further work required) but can't work out how to add it, or would s/o pls do it for me. Thanks. Paul foord 00:12, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
added Umeå hardcore
So i added Umeå hardcore in the "regional scenes" part of the box. Umeå hardcore is basically about, well umeå hardcore. I've been wanting to write about for a long time so other ppl of other nationalities can learn about it. i was also wondering why you call it hardcore punk, we call it just hardcore. hardcore punk is a mix of hardcorea nd punk, like som bands are. well thats it. maybe i will add some more about the current hardcore scene which is now growing again. ( totalt jävla märker and so on) thx!
Added Sweden and USA at time Australia added for consistency --Paul foord 12:02, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
WHERE ARE THE MEAT PUPPETS? WHERE ARE THE MEAT PUPPETS? WHERE ARE THE MEAT PUPPETS? WHERE ARE THE MEAT PUPPETS?
Please Note (re: Talk Page Comments Below)
I'm adding this at the top. I've tried to address most of the earlier comments in rewriting the page (on bias, sources, different regional scenes, etc -- the page is about 85% new material). However, it needs some fleshing out inre: late '80s and '90s hXc: Revelation Records; the placement of pop-oriented bands like All, Bad Religion, etc.; connections with the early grunge scene, and whatever else is relevant.
Also, the table is sort of not doing it, in my opinion -- the article seems to need a good photo. Auto movil 17:43, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Further note (forgot this 'til now): If someone could do a fact-check re: 'Bob Sallese,' the manager mentioned at the top of the article... An anonymous user added and then changed that passage several times to accentuate Sallese's importance, and while the band, The Mob, is genuinely important, it seems unlikely that Bob Sallese coined the term, 'hardcore punk,' and nobody heard about it until now...... Auto movil 17:34, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
re: Zeroption
Whichever one of you guys keeps adding your band to this page, there's probably a place here where it's appropriate -- but NOT as an influential '80-'81 hardcore band, and NOT in terms of the T.O. Hardcore '83 cassette comp (which had tiny distribution).
I know about Zeroption, and I'm 98% sure I saw you guys play. Eastern Canadian bands had a rough time in the early '80s, and I wish it were easier to include some in the brief 'influential' lists. But in an article that passes over genuinely important bands such as Crucifix ('80), Social Unrest ('79), the Whorelords ('78), Kraut ('81), the Freeze ('80), Government Issue ('81), and others, there's simply no reason to include a regionally active band from '82. My old bands and 'zines are certainly not listed here as 'influential,' although I wrote most of the article.
Suggestion: Start a subsection on Canada. Then you can get the Skulls, Subhumans, Nils, Personality Crisis, Dayglo Abortions, Young Lions, and all the rest of those worthy bands some airspace as well. I only know of one semi-early vinyl compilation from Eastern Canada (Primitive Air Raid), and one early punk comp (that thing with the Cardboard Brains on it). If there's more that never reached the US, I'd sure like to know about it. Auto movil 16:42, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
xXx
I made a bunch of edits, some of which may require justification:
Removed reference to Zeroption form Toronto. They weren't even a second-string band, and outside the big TO they didn't have many fans. Replaced them with Neg Approach and the Necros from Detroit (yes, I know, Maumee, OH, but their scene was Detroit), two hugely influential bands. Removed Social Distortion--while they were certainly better known than Zeroption they were not a huge influence on the same level as the other bands mentioned.
Changed "first phase" to end in 1982 because the end of 1982 was the first crucial turning point in hardcore (the birth of MRR)--at the end of 1981 there were perhaps a dozen noteworthy hardcore bands and five or six noteworthy fanzines. At the end of 1982 there were at least a hundred bands worth noting and dozens of worthwhile fanzines. The bands from '80 to '82 were the vanguard, and built the infrastrcuture that was used by the hardcore explosion in '83 and beyond. 1984 (aside from Orwellian symbolism) is a pretty meaningless year in hardcore history.
The page is totally screwed up and in more ways than Paige mentioned. Citing American Hardcore as a worthwhile reference is just WRONG. The book is full of mistakes, half-truths and outright lies, and has a huge bias to boot. Mr Blush crucifies political bands and individuals (particularly left-wing ones), while praising self-avowed racists like White Power (the band, name taken from the movement). His sources are chosen to support his bias and he's inclined to blow off bands he doesn't like, no matter how significant they may be. I don't really feel like going in too much depth, but if you're going to edit this page based on material from American Hardcore, please reconsider.
Ugh! I'm trying to think of ways to tweak this article, but a lot of it is just wrong. The history is totally California-centric, somehow glossing over first wave punk bands in N.Y.C. and D.C. who helped to define the sound(s). It's unclear in the separation of this sub-genre from mainstream punk as the second wave began. It overemphasizes the significance of British bands. It mixes up bands in subtly wrong categories. It makes no mention of the two periods of subsequent crossover with mainstream punk. It gives no info on the influence of metal or oi. Most importantly, though, it leaves out a ton of history and important bands!
Is anyone absolutely in love with this page, to the point where they can't bear to see major revisions? Otherwise, I'd like to take a crack at really expanding it and adding a lot of detail. Any objections? -- Paige 13:35, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Update: I'm never going to get around to doing a major rewrite of this article. Paige 01:11, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
American hardcore history?
Isn't the first album from Suicidal Tendencies (1983) worth named as US hardcore?
How exactly did Minor Threat fuse hardcore punk with experimental stuff like Wire? Ive got Complete Discography and all I can hear is straightforward Hardcore.Motown Junkie 20:19, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have changed the article a bit because of the genral consensus that its misleading/biased/badly wriiten or whatever. I have only added the section "Influence of American Hardcore" and disposed of the "Diversification" and "British Hardcore". If anybody thinks that this has done further damage just revert it back to the old one. Thanks.Motown Junkie 20:19, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hardcore today
This article leaves the reader with the impression that hardcore is a dead movement from the early 80s when it is in fact still thriving. It would be nice to see a section added to reflect this. Maybe I'll take a first crack at it if nobody else does. - cobra libre 11:35, 01 Apr 2004 (UTC)
How is Grindcore related to hardcore? There is a British band called Extreme Noise Terror that I would describe as hardcore where do they fit in? The first Suicidal Tendencies was definitly a hardcore album. How about Brazils Ratos de Porão do they qualify, Italys negazione and raw power?
- IMO ENT is definitely grindcore (with a heavy hardcore punk influnce). Ratos de Porão, Negazione and Raw Power are all increadible hardcore punk bands, but will be ingnored as long as the music industry pushes the idea that they're darlings like Bad Religion, the Dwarves, NOFX, the Distillers are "hardcore punk" (I just noticed that all those bands were at some time or another on Epitaph records -- and Epitaph is part of RIAA, need I say more). millerc 05:21, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The whole thing seems to be cribbed from a press release from the publishers of the book mentioned in the references... Seems very biased and heavy on POV. Would be nice to avoid the political crap and just explain what hardcore is, without having to argue about whether a band is or is not hardcore or grindcore or emocore or whatever. Xinit 02:39, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Who's the geezer that wrote this hardcore punk page? Hardcore was stronger than ever in the 90's and definitely wasn't an afterthought of the 80's. Ebullition and HeartattaCk #1 anyone? Inside Out? Chokehold? Man even the Gorilla Biscuits is late 80's and it spawned what was to come, a global scene that was never bigger.
Bad Religion and NOFX generally accepted as hardcore punk? Ok, could someone please explain to me how Bad Religion and NOFX are hardcore punk and not pop-punk? I'm not putting them down, I am a fan of the older Bad Religion. They're the only pop-punk band I think I can stand, but that doesn't mean that they're hardcore punk, and it doesn't mean they're not sellouts. In fact, I seem to remember seeing the cover of a Crust punk album entitled How could we possibly make any more money than this... which had the same picture on the cover as Bad Relgion's How could hell be any worse... The connection is obvious.
- May be because of Dag Nasty and such... and melodic (mainstream) hardcore in general is pretty similar to the sound of Bad Religion.
- In the mid '90s, bands like NOFX and Bad Religion achieved varying levels of mainstream success, though both NOFX and Bad Religion had been around since the '80s. They added catchy melodies and anthemic choruses to the Hardcore template whilst removing much of the aggression and anger that had been the genre's trademark. Though NOFX and Bad Religion are generally accepted as authentic by fans of Hardcore punk, other bands that towed a poppier line, such as Green Day and Blink 182, are widely regarded as sellout. Bands that retained the aggression of '80s Hardcore into the '90s include The Distillers and The Dwarves.
Also, I wouldn't claim that the Distillers or the Dwarves are very agressive at all, at least not compared to some other current hardcore punk bands like Ratos de Porão, Code 13, etc. millerc 05:21, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
While Bad Religion and NOFX might have made couple of numbers that can be construed as hardcore punk, I certainly agree with User:Millerc - They are, and were, indie/pop/ska-punk. Sure, they have a lot of clout in the hardcore audience as well(after all, who didn't start out with Bad Religion?), but that does NOT make them HC. Tias 09:19, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The reason I put that NOFX/Distillers stuff in is because there are only really 2 ways to end this article. You can either say that hardcore died a death in the late '80s, which is something I don't think anyone really thinks, or you can say that it survived by going in different directions. I dont think that it's possible for hardcore punkrock to happen EXACTLY like it did in the '80s, it happened like that once but it wont EVER happen like that ever again. The chances of everything coming together at the same time are just very unlikely and because of bitching the so-called "scene" fragmented near the end. Most of the people who were involved in it originally like Ian MacKaye seem to have very little interest in it anyway, so people dont tend to get nostalgic about it, and so the only way to carry on with this thing called hardcore punkrock is to find something that resembles it, wether musically or just in spirit.
Punk Rock. Punk what?Motown Junkie 16:31, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
" Wikipedia is better served in all cases by deconstructive criticism." DoubleD
- Where's the mentioning of Revelation records, Victory records, and bands like Gorilla Biscuits, Strife, Earth Crisis, Warzone, Sick of it All? Most of this article is on hardcore-punk, but there is the other hardcore genre (the whole NYC, lower east side scene in the late 80'S) which was made up by labels and bands that I mentioned. Milk 04:28, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I suppose I see your point about BR and NOFX. One other nitpick, though: Why isn't it mentioned that lots and lots of local bands(at least here in Denmark, and I'm sure that it happens everywhere else too) play hardcore punk in exactly the same styles as in the inception? Original HC punk is not dead at all, but the article doesn't seem to mention this. And Milk, I think the very PC sXe metal stuff has been let out because this is about HC punk, not the PC subculture it would eventually spawn - And SOA is way too stylized and tight to be considered original HC as such. <-- Just my opinion. Tias Tias 08:27, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
the "sub genres" part needs something about the general trashy intensive hardcore that is still around. Does anyone know a proper name for it? :)
Why did someone deleted the "hardcore today" part of the article?
Naming of the page
Nobody I know calls Hardcore "hardcore punk". Somebody should change the title.
- Some sort of disambiguation is necessary, so the title can't be perfect. It can't be at just hardcore or hardcore music because there are other genres of music also called hardcore, mostly a bunch of heavy/pounding techno stuff related to gabber. Although everyone who listens to that just calls it hardcore, we have its article at hardcore techno, because we need to disambiguate. Same thing here. --Delirium 07:39, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
What about "Hardcore (Punk)"? To me, hardcore punk and hardcore are different things, and I dont think I'm the only one who this goes for. Though the exact line is fuzzy, and there are lots of variations in definitions, an example might be Youth of Today or any "metalcore" like Shai Hulud band being Hardcore without being Hardcore Punk and maybe say the Germs being Hardcore Punk without being Hardcore, with the Dead Kennedys being both Hardcore and Hardcore Punk. I really do hate that it's called Hardcore Punk, because that's just out and out wrong. Jacib 12:28, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
'Hardcore punk' is what the music was historically called. These later distinctions get extremely fine and subjective. Auto movil 14:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
One reason that I've run into is that the term "hardcore" has also been applied to a number of other genres that are radically different; "hardcore rap" for example. Depending on who you're speaking to, saying that you listen to "hardcore" could mean a couple totally different things. It's the same sort of distinction that you'd get from "pop punk" versus "bubblegum pop". --Xinit 20:10, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
A few points, like Discharge, etc
- The Discharge show where they got trash thrown on them happened in 1986, not 1984, after they put out the album 'Grave New World'. The reason for the crowd's reaction was not due to them being from the UK, but due to the fact that Discharge had in 1 record, went from a great hardcore band, to a horrible crappy metal band. Only those that had heard the new album were aware of this. An since the album came out only 2 weeks before they played The Ritz in NYC, allmost no one knew of the change. So, picture a huge club full of rabid punk rock fans, ready for a hardcore show, an the band they came to see comes out with long hair, playing crappy metal instead of punk rock. Add to that, they played none of their former punk rock songs, which upset the people even more.
-I have no idea where someone got the idea that american puk fans were not into bands from other countries, or the flipside, people overseas not into american punk bands. I was going to shows from 1983 to 2000, and the only times well known non-US punk bands had bad turn out was normally due to the shows being on weekday nights, when many had to work. These bands an their bookers seemed not to realize how important it was to have weekend shows. As for american bands overseas, all my friends who were in bands told me they got great response from people outside of the US, and often did better outside the USA then they did at home.
-Hardcore in the 90's and on is pretty much dead. Back in the 80's, in towns as small as Charlotte NC, or even Columbia SC, there were clubs doing hardcore shows not only on the weekends, but during the summer, more than a few during weekdays. It was not uncommon for shows to also sell out. In the 90's, you were lucky if there was 1 show per weekend.
I think this needs a lot of work
Generally i think the US in the 80s is covered well, but the 90s needs some work ,and I don't think Pennywise, The Dwarves or Zeke really need to be mentioned. Also Zeke never played thrash metal, I have all their albums I should know. I do thik bands like Born Against as well as others should be mentioned. I also think the rift between the DIY scene and Victory records/In Effect/ect. should be brought up for sure, but also making it as neuteral as possible.
I also made reference to some other modern bands like Career Suicide who play a very old school California styled hardcore. I feel that they along with various other bands on labels like 625 and Six Weeks should be brought up as well.
Street Punk?
I've never heard Minor Threat or Black Flag referred to as "street punk," and to call them such is definitely wrong.