Talk:Greco-Turkish relations
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This is a controversial topic, which may be disputed. |
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News
Turkey and Greece have agreed to establish direct communications between two air bases in an effort to defuse tension over mutual allegations of air space violations over the Aegean Sea. [1] (http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-04-12voa143.cfm) --Cool Cat My Talk 09:12, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Copyvio Problems
A user brought this article to my attention. It appears that there are individual chunks of text in this article that copy from [2] (http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/victims.php). That site appears to be the most legitimate, probably owner of copyright of the text. However, there is ongoing debate about that point. In the meantime, are there any editors of this article who can volunteer to scrub the text against the website linked above? Feco 22:39, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
I wrote the bulk of this article and certainly did not copy any of it from that website, which I jave never seen before. Which passages are you alleging are taken from that site? Adam 01:29, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
- If you're really curious, the user pulled a few quotes from this article and put them on the copyvio page as part of a dispute involving a different page. However, I've located the original source document, and it looks like it's now public domain. So you don't have to worry about copyvio problems. Feco 02:51, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Large parts of WW1 section questionable
I find the following sections questionable:
In the second Greco-Turkish War (known to the Turks as the War of Turkish Independence, to the Greeks as the Catastrophe of Minor Asia and to the rest of the world as the War of Minor Asia, see Greco-Turkish War), the Greeks were unable to defend the front in Anatolia when the Turks reorganised under Kemal Atatürk, who founded a Turkish national army based at Ankara and had secured considerable foreign assistance (other than arms from the Soviet Union i'm not aware of any more foreign assistance, perhaps if someone could elaborate?)
The Turks reoccupied Asia Minor and entered Smyrna on September 8, 1922. In Smyrna, in the meantime, there was an influx of refugees from various parts of Asia Minor. The conquering Turks set the city on fire and unleashed the one of the most memorable phases of the genocide against non-Turks (in this case Greeks and Armenians). These were moments of unbelievable horror. The pier turned red by the blood of their victims. Chrysostomos, the spiritual leader of the Orthodox Christians in Smyrna who refused to abandon the city, was seized from religious services he was conducting in the cathedral by Turkish police forces and given over to be publicly ridiculed and dismembered by a mob in the streets. The American Consul in Smyrna, George Horton, gives a detailed and objective picture of the chilling Turkish atrocities in his book “The Blight of Asia” ( Indianapolis: Bobb and Merryl, 1925). (Very POV, there are also sources who state that the burning of Smyrna was part of the Greek scorched earth policy of burning everything in the path of their retreat, there are also sources which say that while there were acts of violence carried out by both Turks and Greeks on each other, violence by Turks was sporadic and not in anyway systematic, as this section stands it is in need of rewording)
In the wake of this conflict there was a violent reaction against the Greek communities throughout Turkey, who were seen as disloyal since they identified more with their Greek heritage and Greece than Turkey. Again, the ethinc minorities in Turkey suffered the rage of the mob with arbitrary lootings and massacres. To end this situation, the Treaty of Lausanne of July 1923 provided for an exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey. About a million Greeks left Turkey for Greece and about half a million Turks left Greece for Turkey. The exceptions to the population exchange were Constantinople, where the Greek minority (including the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church) was allowed to stay, and the eastern part of Greek Thrace, whose Turkish minority was also allowed to stay. Vast fortunes, mainly of Greeks from Asia Minor since most Turks in Greece belonged to the working class and thus were relatively poor, were lost in this transition and the entire incident only created the basis for future conflicts.
The massacres before, during and after this exchange are collectively referred to as the Hellenic Holocaust or Hellenic Genocide but are also known as the Pontian Genocide (Do any countries actually recognise these genocides? and if not should we not say so?) (see the sub-section on massacres committed by Turkey during 1914-1923 in Genocides_in_history ). Fortunately, the exchange helped to somewhat reduce the tensions and the pressure over the minorities living amongst hostile populations.
- Hopefully people can agree to change these, thanks.
Propaganda
Once again I have returned to this article to remove nationalist propaganda, this time Greek. I am finding it hard to decided whether childish Greek nationalist rhetoric is more tiresome than childish Turkish nationalist rhetoric, or vice versa. Hey guys, it's the 21st century. All this happened a looooong time ago. Why don't you all get over it? If you don't, I will continue to remove this stuff. Adam 03:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
FAO Adam Carr
Adam Carr, does this sound netural to you?
"The conquering Turks set the city on fire and massacred those Greeks and Armenians who were unable to escape by sea. Chrysostomos, the spiritual leader of the Orthodox Christians in Smyrna who refused to abandon the city, was dismembered by a mob in the streets. The American Consul in Smyrna, George Horton, gives a detailed and objective picture of the massacre in his book The Blight of Asia ( Indianapolis: Bobb and Merryl, 1925)."
Why do i seem the only one to find this very POV?
So far as I know that is what happened. I have removed allegations of a Turkish "holocaust" or "genocide" against the Greeks, but there is no doubt that there was a massacre of Greeks at Smyrna. I have tried to prevent both Greek and Turkish POV from contaminating this article. Adam 22:21, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- There were indeed killings, but it is not as black and white as Greek POV makes out. In the book i have read it quotes sources who say the killings were mostly sporadic and not systematic of any kind. As it stands the article does not mention the scorched earth policy by Greece during their retreat which left most of the countryside devastaded. Infact in a documentary i saw on Ataturk it says the fire was a direct result of the scorched earth policy. The article also does not mention the brutality towards Turks under Greek occupation. In my edit which was reverted i tried to be as objective as possible, i used a section from Patrick Kinross's Ataturk rebirth of a nation which covers a chapter on the burning of Smyrna. The edit i placed was far more analytical than the current "The conquering Turks set the city on fire and massacred those Greeks and Armenians who were unable to escape by sea" --E.A 13:41, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Adam, I think as well that this wording is POV oriented, because it say it in a "this is what happened" tone. While I believe Smyrna was burned by the Turkish side, because it was witnessed, as well as because only the Greek and Armenian quarters were burned. As well as because the Turkish side changed it's version when chalenged accusing later the Armenians to have burned their own quarter. The most telling is how one of Ataturks close confident as well as another Turkish writer close to the Kemalist circle recognised it etc. But this is one thing, it is another to say something in an "this is what happened" tone. You should have presented this as something like: "It is said that the conquering Turks set the city on fire and massacred those Greeks and Armenians who were unable to escape by sea. Chrysostomos, the spiritual leader of the Orthodox Christians in Smyrna who refused to abandon the city, was allegdly dismembered by a mob in the streets. The American Consul in Smyrna, George Horton, gives a detailed picture of the events in his book The Blight of Asia ( Indianapolis: Bobb and Merryl, 1925)." I think such wordings would be closer to NPOV. Regards Fadix 18:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
When things are properly attested historical facts, they should be presented as such. We don't say "it is alleged that Germany invaded Poland in 1939," because this is a fact not an allegation. Independent historians (ie, not Greek or Turkish) agree that there was a deliberate massacre of Greeks in Smyrna, accompanied by many atrocities including mass rape. It is not alleged that this was done on the orders of Kemal or the Kemalist government. Adam 01:01, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Attested facts according to whom? I have my source, you have yours. The fire of Smyrna is not as black and white as who invaded Poland. All we can do is write both accounts and say it is disputed, which is what i have done. --E.A 16:56, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Don't take me wrong,... I am convinced that the massacres and the fire did happen, I won't permit myself to be dragged in this fight E.A might push by relativizing the event and make of it a two directional massacre and burning. SMYRNA 1922: The Destruction of a City, Kent State U Press, 1988 (Dobkin, Marjorie Housepian), is a very convincing work providing countless of witnesses that have directly witnessed how and who put the fire, and there is no doubt for me for this,... as the accusations against the Armenians and the story of the petrolium was known to come to light just after the nationalist forces were unable to explain their first theses(Greeks having burned it). There is also the fact that one of Ataturks close confident actually wrote blamming the Turkish army for the fire. What I was asking you is to just present it as a position. BTW, the claim that Mango is not a Turk is not entirly true. He's born in Turkey etc. And is generally very much pro-Turkish and considered as an Armenian genocide revisionist. So the fact that he do accuse the fire on the Turkish side just means that this position is more supported, but this doesn't justify it as presenting as fact. Fadix 21:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am trying to show that attrocities were committed by an invading army, this is important to understand the chaos in Izmir once the Turkish army arrived. --E.A 22:07, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sources on Smyrna massacre
My sources on this are Michael Llewellyn Smith, Ionian Vision: Greece in Asia Minor 1919-1922 (Allen Lane 1973), and Andrew Mango, Ataturk (John Murray 1999). Both these books are by professional historians, neither Greek nor Turkish, and Mango's biography is generally very friendly to Ataturk and Turkey generally.
Both authors agree that the initial entry of Turkish troops into Smyrna (9 September 1922) was orderly and fairly peaceful. But on 13 September the Armenians, who hated and feared the Turks, resisted the occupation of the Armenian quarter. The Turks then began to loot and burn Armenian shops, starting a fire which destroyed the whole of the Armenian, Greek and "Frankish" (European) quarters. Both agree that there was large-scale murder of Armenian, and to a lesser extent Greek, civilians by Turkish troops. Both give a detailed description of the lynching of Archbishop Chrysostom, which was done on the orders of the Turkish commander Nureddin Pasha.
This is Llewellyn Smith's description of the murder of Chrysostom:
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Adam 01:43, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My Sources on Smyrna massacre
I'm a bit confused as to why you've completely eliminated the attrocities carried out by the Greek army, this is after all a article on Greco-Turkish relations, and to eliminate such an important part which explains the chaos once the army entered Smyrna is beyond me.
My source was Patrick Kinross's "Ataturk: Rebirth of a Nation" (1964) he is British and a very well respected historian on Ataturk, Turkey and the Ottoman empire. Sorry i dont have a scanner but i'll have to quote him
Greek acts during retreat:
"The retreat lasted a week. The Turkish forces hurried on towards the city, striving to overtake the Greeks before they could decimate all western Anatolia 'by fire and sword'. The cavalry followed close on the enemy's heels; the infantry, geared over the two hundred mules of winding roads between the plateau and the sea to pace of its ox-carts and mule trains, moved more slowly. In three days its main body contrive to march a hundred miles/ But it still failed to catch up with the enemy. Already most of the twons in its path were in ruins. One thrid of Ushak no longer existed. Alashehir was no more than a dark scorched cavity, defacing the hillside. Village after village had been reduced to an ashe-heap. Out of the eighteen thousand buildings in the historic holy city of Manisa, only five hundred remained
Everywhere the Greek troops, especially those from Anatolia, revenging themselves in desperation and in obedience to orders for generations of Ottoman oppresion and persecution, carried of Christian families that their quarters too might be burned and not a roof left for the advancing Turks. They tore up the railway between Smyrna and Aydin. They pillaged and destroyed and raped and butchered. 'They went to pieces altogether' as Rumbold recounted to Curzon on the basis of reports from his consul in Smyrna. It was 'a sickenong act of bestiality and barbarity'. There was little, he added, to choose between the two races, Greek and Turk. Permeating the atmosphere, as Turks advanced down the valleys, was the stench of unburied bodies, of charred human and animal flesh" p.318
On the Cause of the Fire:
"The internecine violcence led, more or less by accident, to the outbreak of a catastrophic fire. Its origins were never satsifactorily explained. Kemal maintained to Admiral Dumesnil that it had been deliberately planned by an Armenian incediary organization, and that before the arriva of the Turks speeches had been made in the churches, calling for the burning of the city as a sacred duty. Fuel for the purpose had been found in the houses of Armenian women, and several incendiaries had been arrested. Others accused the Turks themselves of deliberately starting the fire under the orders or at least witht the connivance of Nur-ed-Din Pasha, who had a reputation for fanaticism and cruelty.
More probably it started when the Turks, rounding up Armenians to confiscate their arms, besieged a band of them in a building in which they had taken refuge. Deciding to burn them out, they set it alight with pertrol, placing a cordon of sentries around to arrest or shoot them as they escaped. Meanwhile the Armenians stareted other fires nearby to divert the Turks from their main objective. The quarter was on the outskirts of the city. But a strong wind, for which they had not allowed, quickly carried the flames towards it. By the early evening several other quarters were on fire, and a thousand houses, built filimsily of lath and plaster, had been reduced to ashes. The flames were being spread by looters, and doubtless also by Turkish soldiers paying off scores. The fire brigade was powerless to cope with such conflagration, and at Ismet's headquartes the Turks alleged that its hose piepes had been severed. He himself chose to declare that the Greeks had planned to burn the city." p.324/325
On the Armenian and Greek populations:
The admiral then referred to the arrest and interment by Turks of all the able-bodied male Christian population, and their threatened deportation by the interior as indicated by Nur-ed-din. This had caused panich throughout the Greek and Armenian communities, and would create a bad impression abroad, as recent deportations from Samsun area had done. Kemal replied in a conciliator spirit. Nur-ed-din had spoken in military terms, at the moment of victory, concerned to prevent the passage of potential Greekr ecurits to continie the war in Thrace. In fact the Turkish intentions were not drastic, and he undertook to reassure the population accordingly. None the less the deportations continued" p.324.
From these passages there are important things to add to the article
- en-route to the reoccupation of Smyrna, the Turkish army had to witness their lands and property decimated by fire. Greeks did rape, kill and commit attrocities for no reason other than to inflict as much damage as possible during their retreat.
- The fire, though it may have been started by Turks, cannot be described as an organised attempt by the Turkish army and its high command to reduce the city to ashes - what good is rubble and ashes to Kemal? The fire was most probably escalated out of control by a series of random events, involving Turks, Armenians and Greeks.
- Yes, many Greeks and Armenians were killed, but it must be shown against the background of the attrocities commited during the Greek retreat. The city was in total chaos, Turks killed Armenians, Armenians killed Turks, there was mass looting by everyone; Greek, Turk and Armenian.
--E.A 13:35, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
FAO Scimitar
I am at odds with some of the edits, i dont understand why we can say that Turkey pillaged, raped and massacred - but cannot say that Greeks did the same during retreat, despite providing sources above. --E.A 10:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think the present text gives a fairly balanced account. Some of the detail should be removed -this article is not meant to be a detailed account of the war in Anatolia or the fall of Smyrna. Adam 11:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Adam. E.A., I thought that the way the text was written was unneccesarilly inflammatory. You'll notice I did preserve the "acts of barbarism" quote, but I didn't feel that all the somewhat contentious details of the Greek retreat needed to be included in the article. If the majority disagree with me . . .--Scimitar 13:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for your reply. Firstly, i would like to say there is nothing debatable about the Greek actions during retreat - they did use a scorched earth policy, they did pillage and they did rape. I took the time to copy out my source by a respected British historian - yet it is still dismissed as contentious? Yourself and Adam say you dont want to go into details, yet there is a statement about the lynching of an archbishop, rape and murders and looting by Turks and a reference to genocide (even though the article says there was no such attempt). I find it odd that to mention the attrocities committed by Greeks (the invader dont forget) is considered out of place.
- I also find the recommendation of a book (George Horton) mid article to be pushing one POV - further reading for both sides should be recommended at the end. Hopefully we can come to some agreement about how to proceed. --E.A 15:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I agree about the book recommendation mid-article being out of place. I've also tried to rephrase the hellenic genocide statement to be a little more indicative of reality. As for the archbishop detail, I personally think it is relevant because a)it's well-documentd, but much, much more importantly, b) it shows a certain level of tacit approval for such actions by the Turkish commander. If there is a similar incident involving senior Greek officials, (particularly with regard to the "scorched earth" policy), I'd like to look at including that as well. --Scimitar 16:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Have a look at my edit see what you think. I removed the archbishop sentence because it is too individual, i instead mentioned accusations of Nurredins complicity in the violence in a more general tone. I mentioned the scorched earth, the burning of crops, leaving inhabitants of Smyrna close to starvation. Removed genocide claims as seen as we agree there is no factual accuracy behind, added death toll, moved Horton to further reading, if someone could find the ISBN number appreciate it. Let me know what you think. --E.A 16:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- For the most part I approve of the edits. The one thing I don't neccessarily agree with is the removal of the holocaust claims. Although I don't believe them to be remotely valid after doing some research, I think the existence of some claims affected the mindset of the Greek community, and further, Greco-Turkish relations. Thus, although the holocaust didn't occur, the claims of it's occuring still had an impact and thus were notable, and should be included. What's your opinion? --Scimitar 19:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ignoring the sensationalist websites out there, the only real way to go is if the government of Greece recognises a Hellenic Genocide, then we can say Greeks refer to what happened in WW1 and after as Hellenic Genocide. I've tried a search and cant seem to find a reference linking the Greek government with a recognition of genocide, maybe someone can clarify this. If we cant find this then perhaps the best way to go is to say Greece refers to the events as the Asia Minor Catastrophe/Disaster (which they do). --E.A 20:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I tend to agree, I can't find any evidence that the Greek govt. recognizes (or ever has recognized) a Hellenic genocide or hollocaust. If there's solid evidence that they do I will argue we have an obligation to include it,but barring that, I tend to agree with you. --Scimitar 20:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Included reference to disaster, also added few more details on beginning of nationalist movement. --E.A 20:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I just changed it from War of Turkish Liberation to War of Asia Minor. I felt that the common international title is more appropriate than the Turkish one, as Wikipedia is an international entity. --Scimitar 21:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)