Talk:Global warming controversy

I am not really sure how prominent they are? Illarionov is just a shill in Russian administration. Crichton has wrote one famous essay. Perhaps, these are not the best examples... Paranoid 08:28, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 14:40, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)) I got rid of Crichton on the grounds of lack of credentials (if I were a skeptic, I'd be embarrassed to be so short of people that I needed to put him in). Ill... probably gets a place due to his importance (or not?) in the Russian govt.

Crichton has some credibility as a scientific literate in the tradition of Asimov and Clarke. I've no problem with hime being mentioned despite the embarassment. He is an especially prominent participant in the debate now, since his latest work of fiction has footnotes. --Silverback 05:25, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 09:46, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)) You're welcome to re-insert C if you think him appropriate. That last comment was a joke though, wasn't it? His work is voodoo/cargo-cult "science".

Wikipedia Style Guide: Bad Form

If you check Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Bad Form, it states:

Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact - the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate.

Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should attempt to write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into a separate section.

It strikes me that this was precisely what was done in the separation of global warming controversy from global warming. I think this warrants consideration about reorganization. If the size of the global warming article needs to be regulated, then it would perhaps be more meaningful to break things off in terms of subject, rather than to separate controversy. This is what the style guide tells us. — Cortonin | Talk 23:50, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The style guide is often pissing into the wind. These kind of controversy separations occur as a natural result of the wiki method, if a minority wants their view in, they are more likely to get it in if they will allow it to be labeled "controversial". Forcing things into the style guide straight jacket, just makes their uphill battle harder. wikipedia will never be an "encyclopedia", the best it can hope for is to become what happens when wiki meets lofty encyclopedia goals. In some ways this is more valuable. Certainly more of the controversy is found in wikipedia while standard encyclopedias lag behind, presenting only the undisputed.--Silverback 05:33, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The style guide doesn't instruct us to remove controversial elements, it instructs us to integrate controversial elements throughout the other articles for the purpose of making the other articles more complete in their coverage of human knowledge. I think there is great wisdom in this approach, and we shouldn't be discouraged in attempts to make a better encyclopedia by those who would remove controversial elements. We should instead push forward and try to get closer to the ideals of the style guide. — Cortonin | Talk 06:42, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Exactly, I completely agree, and that is what I try to do all the time, but what I was pointing out, is that this is what we end up with. When it is hard to agree within the text, it is better to get the information in labeled as controversial rather than left out completely. You should try editing a page where you are in a distinct minority, and see if you don't end up making similar compromises. People, including me, are going to resist your integration attempts if they come at the cost of losing information. Note the term that was chosen for the analogy in "Wikipedia Form Guide" was the "guide", not the "hammer".--Silverback 07:06, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Missing the point

This page is linked from Global warming as: Global warming controversy — socio-political issues surrounding the theory of global warming. But this page is more about is it true or not, and who thinks so. My reading of many of the "opponents of the global warming theory" is twofold: they think there are weaknesses in the science and they think that the political response is overblown. But most of them accept that the world is warmer than 200 years ago, and that part of that may have had an anthropogenic cause; they challenge the certainty about the degree of impact, and more significantly the best response to it. But this is hardly covered in the article which reads very much as a "yes, there is a dramatic change and it is all down to human activity" v. "no, there is no change or, if there is, it certainly has nothing to do with human activity". A bad article which doesn't live up to its promises. --Audiovideo 01:22, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 15:44, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)) The article does have its bad points, but you should have seen some of the earlier versions... at one point (see talk above) it was a dustbin for stuff that no-one could agree about on the GW page. Some of that still lingers. But, I do agree with you re the prop/opp stuff - the true situation is far more nuanced. George Bush, for example, is clearly politically "against" Kyoto - yet he accepts the std record as showing 0.6 oC warming this century. Whereas Singer doesn't.

Resolving the wording disagreement in the second bullet list

I'd like to offer some thoughts on resolving the tussle over wording in the second list of bullet points.

Some suggest "believe", or "think", or "accept the evidence" or "accept the consensus". Consider the following, which I think is being overlooked:

There is non-negligable evidence that warming is not taking place.
Some people believe in warming or non-warming not because of trust in the data but because some authority they trust believes in it. This is not science, but revelation. (NB: I do not mean necessarily supernatural here, people can "reveal" too.)
One can accept evidence for and against a theory, without contradiction.

So, "believe" and "think", while accurate, are misleading and insufficient. We should also explain why they believe or think what they do. As for "accepting evidence", it is too restrictive - not everybody accpets something based on evidence, sometimes it is consensus - and the same applies to "accepting consensus."

This leads me to expand the categories somewhat:

People accept the evidence of warming, or they do not.
People accept the evidence of non-warming, or they do not.
People accept the revelation of warming, or they do not.
People accept the revelation of non-warming, or they do not.
People can accept a combination of all of the above.

The same expansion goes for the origin of the warming or non-warming.

So, I think the tussle stems from the constraint imposed by the original bullet sentences. That people can believe something either because of evidence or because of revelation is disregarded.

My wording needs to be addressed too, but this is a group effort. And it may be necessary to add a disclaimer that the amount or strength of evidence or revelation on one side is not necessarily equal to that on the other side.

What do you think? Daniel Collins 15:36, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why does it have to be so convoluted with details about the state of evidence, when it's just categorization of what people think about the world? "Think" has no POV attached, it's just stating the fact. You are right in highlighting that there is evidence in both directions, but it doesn't make sense to highlight acceptance of a category of evidence. Regardless of the topic, and regardless of the strength of evidence in either direction, it's perfectly appropriate to describe the points of view as each group thinking a certain thing, because that's precisely what is the case. Using the word "think" is neutral. Using the words "evidence" or "consensus" for one set of groups expresses endorsement for one view in the process of categorization, which is not only against policy, but completely unnecessary when a neutral way of listing them exists. This is one of the fundamental errors that seems to be existing in this group of articles. The NPOV policy instructs us to not endorse a specific view, no matter how strongly we believe it, and no matter how many people believe it. So if you want to pick a different wording other than "think", then it needs to have symmetry across all of the groups, like "think", not asymmetry like the "accept/deny evidence/consensus" categorization. — Cortonin | Talk 17:11, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

negligable evidence that warming is not taking place. is wrong. Certainly, there is nothing in wiki to support this, or really anything outside with any credibility. What evidence were you thinking of?

I think that Some people believe in warming or non-warming not because of trust in the data but because some authority they trust believes in it. This is not science, but revelation. is an absurdly strict test. There is no-one involved in this discussion who can claim any real familiarity with the actual data (except me, and that only for a small corner of Antarctica). Science is a long cascade of relying on previous results that you trust and can in principle be checked.

I think that JonGwynne has been convicted of POV pushing by the arbcomm, so anything he adds that looks like POV - and this does - is deeply suspect. (William M. Connolley)

Science is about evidence and the controversy is ultimately about the interpretation of or refusal to acknowledge the evidence presented. As such I fail to see anything NPOV about "accept the evidence ... but..." or "reject the evidence". These fairly summarize the positions. I agree with the unsigned WMC above :-) (Sorry - signed belatedly - WMC) Vsmith 00:54, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Only occasionally is evidence rejected in science. Usually, and I think in this instance, the evidence is accepted, it is the analysis, interpretation and conclusions that are questioned. On the satellite data for instance, they are all working with the same raw data.

(William M. Connolley 08:43, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)) Well no. Most people are working with the same data. Singer, Douglass etc are working with the only 2/3 of the data because their prejudices oblige them to throw away the bit that shows warming.

On the temperature data, the readings themselves are accepted, it is how to correct for heat island effects and how to interpret trends recorded within heat islands, how to correct for uneven sampling of the globe, and how to interpret the relative importance of surface warming, vis'a'vis much less warming or even cooling in the rest of the troposhere.--Silverback 01:37, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. I think it is a complete mischaracterization to say that one side is accepting the evidence and one side is rejecting it. Those who object to the conclusions of global warming are not rejecting science, this is just a strawman often put forward by environmentalists. Instead, they are generally just disagreeing about what the science says. I think the version put forward by Silverback satisfies the NPOV requirement, it just seems a more clumsy way to word it than simply describing what each group's views are. — Cortonin | Talk 04:03, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

accept/deny oversimplification

The four position summary is an oversimplification as is the accept/deny language. All positions generally accept all or almost all the data, sometimes data is rejected because it is thought to be bad, or is collected in such an inconsistent way that it represents a separate data set, rather than a continuous one. Thus the rejection of data that WMC is considering significant because that data had a different handling of snow.

(William M. Connolley 09:28, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)) No, the MSU data is not affected by snow.

I thought we were both referring to the data the Singer co-authored paper truncated at 1997 due to an altered treatment of snow after that date. I think this paper by authors on the otherside of the global warming divide makes the same decision, although this time they are interested in clouds and not temperatures:

- Sun, B., and R. S. Bradley (2004), Reply to comment by N. D. Marsh and H. Svensmark on ‘‘Solar influences on cosmic rays and cloud formation: A reassessment,’’ J. Geophys. Res., 109, D14206, doi:10.1029/2003JD004479[1] (http://www.geo.umass.edu/faculty/bradley/sun2004.pdf) "The reason we use the ISCCP data set up to the end of 1997 is because the data after 1998 could be affected by the use of wrong snow information in the retrieval (according to NASA Langley Atmospheric Sciences DataCenter), although no significant influence is thought to have occurred over the United States (Figure 1b). MS02 noticed that the GCR-IR LCC correlation becomes weaker if the data period extends from 1983–1994 to 1983–2001. They attribute this to the problem in satellite intercalibration in 1994–1995, though it has not been well documented. We also calculate the correlation for July 1983 to August 1994,during which period the cloud data are supposed to be free of problems"

--Silverback 21:00, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Of course this made no difference to the tropical ocean conclusions of the study. What is usually disputed or denied is the analysis, interpretation or the conclusions. It is not just the fourth position that rejects "evidence". The first position that accepts the modeling predictions by doing so, denies the significance of the evidence that the models poorly handle clouds and aerosols and do a poor job of replication vertical temperature profile data, especially over the tropical oceans. They deny the evidence of increased correlation with solar variability than can be explained by direct insolation

(William M. Connolley 09:28, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)) Much of the evidence for solar correlation rests on dodgy interpolation, as Damon and Laut showed.

Thanx, I hadn't seen that analysis before. The are multiple ways to interpret the breakdown of the correlation with the 1990s warming. I am curious about what the resolution will be. Note, that the strong increase in solar activity up to 1940, is matched by a recover to those levels with the recent warming, so some of the 1990s warming is probably due to climate commitement from the high levels of solar activity. More fairly recent solar activity cites:[2] (http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/ccr/publications/vanloon_solar.pdf)[3] (http://cc.oulu.fi/~usoskin/personal/2004GL0195072.pdf)[4] (http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0407066)[5] (http://solar.njit.edu/preprints/palle1265.pdf)--Silverback 21:16, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

and they deny that the paleo evidence that whatever mechanisms make the long term climate sensitivity to CO2 doubling much less than the short term modeling predictions, may also be true for the short term, despite all the known limitations of their models.--Silverback 09:22, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 09:28, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)) The problem is that while there is a coherent scientific position - the IPCC one - there is no real coherent skeptic position, even amongst the few scientists there. Most of them take refuge in use of outdated data - the SEPP site or the Douglass papers are obvious examples - in order to avoid discussing the current data. Do you think that there is anywhere that sets out the skeptic position properly?

Why does there need to be a coherent skeptic position? That would seem to be more characteristic of conspiracy or collusion rather than noting legitimate problems with the science being used to make extreme predictions.--Silverback 21:16, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

The position of most so-called skeptics can probably be summed up as either, "the evidence is not as conclusive as environmentalists are saying it is," or, "the evidence points to at most insignificant warming," or a combination of those two. And no, there's no U.N. body promoting these views. — Cortonin | Talk 10:39, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Issue rephrase

Good edit, SEWilco. That better encapsulates the essence of the controversy. — Cortonin | Talk 22:39, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is this a comedy - or psychic forces at work?

SEW phrases the various viewpoints as "Those who believe..." and almost immediately guess who shows up as "Some organisations were formed to further the opponents' views:" - the "Institute for Creation Research".
I knew the word believe had religious connotations, but this is hilarious! And, now we know why that institute was formed. This is great! If we edit out the believes will the link go away? Gotta have a little fun :-) Vsmith 02:35, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I chose "believe" due to several of its meanings and implications. (SEWilco 09:22, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC))
Related in several ways:
Missing image
El_nino_fishing.jpg
Fishing in warm water for cold-loving fish.

That is partly why I suggest we tease apart the reason or motivations for the belief. For example, I could be a vegetarian because I analyse the food chain with the 2nd law of thermodynamics and see a limitation in energy availability while population increases, or because I value all life and don't want to lose karma, or because I want to avoid eating unclean meat in order to honour God while I'm in captivity. In any case, I believe I should be vegetarian, but for fundamentally different reasons. Thus, I, ah em, believe that if we identify the reasons behind the belief - be it scientific evidence, scientific theory, divine revelation, anthropic revelation, propaganda, greed, etc - we would do a great service to this discussion, and even help resolve the controversy (for those who wish that to happen). So, SEW, you choose the word because of "several of its meanings and implications". What are they? Cortonin, do you prefer it only becasue it is the simplest and greatest common factor, and yet overlook the point VS makes? VS, you clearly think some people don't believe in global warming or its problems because of non-scientific reasons, so why not say as such in the text? The controversy at hand is not just a scientific one, it is also very much social. Daniel Collins 21:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I support a description of that form because at the core, what it is trying to do is divide people into categories, and the people are divided into categories on a controversy based on their beliefs or thoughts, not because of anything to do with scientific evidence. Now if you want to examine, lower in the article, some of the reasons why people prefer to believe or think a certain way, then scientific evidence comes into play for some of the people in each group (but certainly not all of any group). I say that there are people who believe in global warming for non-scientific reasons, and there are people who believe there's no global warming for non-scientific reasons. There are also people who believe in global warming for scientific reasons, and people who believe there's no global warming for scientific reasons. Part of this controversy involves people flinging mud back and forth at each other saying that the other side isn't being scientific, and it would be POV endorsement (not to mention wrong) to imply that one side is correct in this assessment. The truth is, each group of the controversy has people using science, and each group has people who are hopelessly biased with no regard for reason. Beware of the logical fallacies of people who try to stereotype any group one way or the other. — Cortonin | Talk 18:58, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's good, for me, to have such a clear picture, although I was suprised you thought my suggestion was more convoluted than SEW's change. (I hope I am not miscommunicating and giving the impression that we should advocate in the wiki one way of arriving at a conclusion over an other.) So VS and WMC, what do you think of having a section devoted to explaining why people may think what they think (I do prefer "think" or "consider" to "believe" for VS's reason; again, there is social baggage with the words we choose)? Although I would recommend, like other Wikipedia pages, that the introductory section indeed includes reference to this polychotomy prior to its fleshing out. Daniel Collins 21:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You had a useful analysis, but it was leading toward a matrix of selections which produces too many specific classifications. I kept the existing structure which was focused upon a few requirements for belief in GWT, and "other" seems to not need to be as specific unless discussing a specific issue. The "belief" phrasing doesn't care about individual reasons but rather upon the conceptual result. And just now I fixed the mistake in the first issue of "how much change" rather than the meaning of "more change than usual" (we wouldn't care about 1% change if 90% is usual); I intentionally did not specify "range" nor "trend" as those are details in deciding what is unusual. Details belong after the generalities. (SEWilco 05:26, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC))

As you mention Vegetarianism, you might look at that article. It is a list of lists of beliefs. What is the goal here? (SEWilco 05:31, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC))

OK. Let's see - the article states The controversy occurs almost entirely within the press and political arenas. and then discusses mainly the differing interpretations of the scientific evidence. The pre-SEW intro listed four viewpoints, three of which differed in the interpretation of the evidence and the fourth was in simple denial of the evidence for probably a variety of reasons. Therefore I don't see the problem with scientific evidence and its interpretation as useful grouping scheme.
Now, the word believe is far too loaded for use here. When my students ask me if I believe in evolution, I respond that "believe" is the wrong word, but, that I accept the scientific evidence for evolution. BTW, I'm in the "bible belt" where evolution is a hot button word. And believe is either religion or Santa Clause.
Now as to Daniel's question: what do you think of having a section devoted to explaining why people may think what they think? Go for it if you want, but it would be a POV minefield. American love affair with gas guzzling SUVs that never leave a paved road would be one starter (and the auto industry's love affair with profits). Lifestyle and the pocketbook sums up a lot of it. But, I'm not a psycho-analyst, just kinda psycho :-) -Vsmith 17:10, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

De-believed - emphasis on evidence. Vsmith 14:11, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Pretty pictures

I tired of the look of the page (and lack of scrolling landmarks). Pleasantly interesting now? (SEWilco 05:36, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC))

Pretty pictures are fine, but they need a tie in to the article (relevance) and a caption or else they'll go. Do we need mere decoration? -Vsmith 14:11, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but these "pretty pictures" need to go. If they don't tie into the article, they just don't belong. — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work} 20:43, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Definitely. I mean, I'm sure we all appreciate the effort to add some aesthetic appeal to an otherwise dry article, there is an insurmountable problem with using imagines that don't relate to the subject at hand. We had the same problem with the Kyoto Accord page - certain people kept trying to add decoration where it didn't belong.--JonGwynne 22:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why not read before reverting?

C reverted with this in the edit summary: Unacceptable to say some deny evidence, and unacceptable to say some are "wrong". That is just shameless advocacy. Problem is the edits he reverted didn't say anyone was "wrong" and didn't say "some deny evidence". Seems he needs to read what it says before reverting to his religious believes :-) Vsmith 19:05, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And, yes the controversy or debate is pushed primarily by politicians and journalists and others who don't like or understand evidence and would rather hide it or not mention it. But, the evidence is real and the differing viewpoints on the meaning of the evidence are what the debate is about, so what is wrong with using the word rather than all those questionable believes? Vsmith 19:19, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Evidence implies clear proof. Many things are real without being proof. (SEWilco 19:54, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC))

(Disclaimer: With the refs, I can't tell if you're joking. If not...) It is beyond me how evidence equals clear proof. If it implies it, I think there is a misunderstanding of what either one of them really is. "Proof" as I see it is (i) logically irrefutable, as in mathematic derivations, or (ii) an extrapolation of "a huge amount of consistent and unchallenged evidence". But indeed, things can be real without being proven, and even without being able to be proven. Daniel Collins 13:45, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vsmith, the version you are endorsing still has four categories which state "accept the evidence", and one which states "deny that climate is changing." This doesn't have the wording "deny the evidence," but the concept is still there just as well. If I say, for example, parental category A spends time with their children, and category B spends a lot of time at work, then it's still implying that category B doesn't spend time with their children even though it doesn't have those words. It's no different here. Saying that one category accepts the evidence, but other categories don't, is saying that they're just in denial, which trivializes the debate. The debate may be trivialized precisely that way inside your mind, but that's just your POV, and it doesn't belong expressed here. There is no way around it, categorizing people by "accept the evidence" is going to have this rhetorical problem any way you reword it it. If you list every single category as "accept the evidence", then you've attained symmetry, but then it's meaningless to even list it. This is why we need to find a different way to word it that does not endorse one group as "more scientific". Please try to understand the rhetorical implications of what you write, and the implications that has for NPOV, because it's critical to achieving NPOV, if you still genuinely support that goal. You cannot describe only one side of the global warming debate as scientific here, no matter how much you may want to. — Cortonin | Talk 23:38, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's all basically hot air. If it's not about evidence then what is the point? Just a bunch of worthless opinions based on beliefs. I agree that a lot of the political and journalistic debate is based on opinions rather than evidence, but that should not define the article here. The "deny that climate is changing." category is, I think (lose track of the reverts:-), SEW's phrase that I left. Don't know who fits there, maybe the creationists? Everything else is based on the evidence and interpretations of it.
And to SEW: evidence does not imply clear proof, this is not a court of law. Evidence in science has a different meaning - the facts that support or help refute an hypothesis or theory.
-Vsmith 00:17, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing hot air about rhetoric and NPOV, I'm sorry you can't grasp what I'm saying. Saying that one group believes X, and another group believes Y, does not say its a religion. I have no idea where you get this idea. I believe that the earth is round, I believe that the gluons hold quarks together, and I believe that photons mediate electromagnetic interaction. Which of these is religious? I also think that the earth is round, I think that gluons hold quarks together, and I think that photons mediate the electromagnetic interaction. Is it somehow diminished? If there's a group that things the strong force does not operate by gluon exchange, then I think it does, and they think it doesn't. This is a fairly straightforward method of describing two groups, and there's no reason to replace it with your opinion that one group adheres better to the evidence. Nobody is questioning that there's a whole lot of evidence involved with global warming (which should be examined in the article), but that has nothing to do with the groups of people. The groups differ by what they think about global warming. — Cortonin | Talk 09:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry 'bout the hot air bit, that was a bit much :-)

I believe that the earth is round, I believe that the gluons hold quarks together, and I believe that photons mediate electromagnetic interaction. Which of these is religious? Answer: All of 'em. Belief is the acceptance in the absence of evidence and is a religious concept. As for my feeling on those topics, I either accept the evidence or trust that the evidence is valid until I get around to studying it. Trust based on the scientific method and the journals publishing the evidence. There is a big difference there. As for think - that would be better, but quite weak. Philosophers think - scientists produce evidence. Maybe Nobody is questioning that there's a whole lot of evidence, ... maybe. The difference is in the interpretation or flat rejection of that evidence. Vsmith 12:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If someone refers to one person's claims as "evidence", that is POV. That is creating the implication that those who agree with the "evidence" are correct and those who disagree with it are incorrect. It doesn't allow for the possibility that the evidence itself may be flawed or that the people who observed the experiments responsible for it drew the wrong conclusions from those experiments. That would be a mistake. Try looking at it this way... the issue here is not what is being reported but *how* it is being reported. In a court of law, the person who is accused of a crime is properly referred to as the "alleged" perpetrator or "suspect" - even if the evidence against them appears to be incontrovertible. It is important in a court of law to remain objective and it is important to remain objective when reporting --JonGwynne 07:44, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

p.s. You're wrong about the earth being round. It isn't round at all, it is an oblate sphereoid. -JonGwynne

Vsmith, I think you're confused about the definition of the word belief. Read it here. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=belief) Not one of the definitions says that belief implies a disregard for evidence, in fact, one of the definitions is actually, "a degree of conviction of the truth of something esp. based on a consideration or examination of the evidence". Your idea of what belief means is the opposite of what it actually means. — Cortonin | Talk 17:43, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not confused at all. From the first Webster's I picked up:

"1. the state of believing; acceptance that certain things are true or real [a belief in astrology] 2. faith, esp. religious faith ..." and under believe "vi 1. to have trust or confidence (in), as being true, real, etc. 2. to have religious faith."

And here in the bible belt you can be sure that the religious meaning is predominant. So back off and get rid of it. Vsmith 21:15, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, then it seems the people around you use a funny definition of belief, since the more general definition seems to be predominant elsewhere. "Think", however, should be neutral regardless of region. If there are people who think "thinking" is exclusively religious, that would just be silly. — Cortonin | Talk 21:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand what the confusion is about. The word "belief" means "the state of believing; acceptance that certain things are true or real". How does this suggest that the "certain things" are necessarily untrue? I believe the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. I have no proof of this, yet I do not doubt it either. I "believe" in it. How is that different from those who believe in global warming? And how does VSmith convert the concept of belief from what it is into something akin to "blind faith in the fact of overwhelming contrary evidence"? --JonGwynne 22:10, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Does the article on belief help any? Daniel Collins 14:27, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

SEWilco's edits

WP:POINT. I assume that's what this bizarre edit is?

You don't think I'd have a suitably bizarre edit summary if that were the case? Actually, Wikipedia gave an error message when I first submitted, and apparently produced or was presented that mess during resubmission. (SEWilco 19:58, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC))

Ok, I was wondering if it had something to do with how ridiculous this revert war is? I was looking for something logical. Sorry about that (I have never had WIkipedia do anything stranger than refuse an edit - had no idea something so odd could happen). Guettarda 20:46, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contentious

Here's another way to look at the article. (SEWilco 06:08, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC))

Thomas Dietz. 2001. “Thinking about Environmental Conflicts”[6] (http://www.dietzkalof.org/Thinking_about_environmental_conflict.pdf)
"My observation is that at least seven factors contribute to making environmental problems especially contentious. They are:
1. A muddling of facts and values
2. Facts that are uncertain
3. Values that are unformed
4. Changes that are concrete and permanent
5. Harm to innocents and inequities
6. Confusion of boundaries between the public and the private
7. A confusion of competences"

As in any debate, I would add the case where language use differs among the debaters. The use of "belief", as argued above, is a case in point - it means different things to different people. I suggest either (i) adding a paragraph that explains what is meant by "belief" or what other word is used, or (ii) tightening up that phrases themselves. It is more involved, but in light of the current debate, quite possibly necessary. Daniel Collins 13:57, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I chose "belief" because its ambiguity includes those whose thinking is based on facts and/or values. The purpose of the early article section is to classify people's thinking and behavior, not cataloging literature. Does the desired classification require identification of all facts and values, or where is painting with a broad brush appropriate? (SEWilco 02:24, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC))

Recent edit war

I'm going to side with Connolley on this one. This controversy hasn't quite shaken out yet. I tend to sympathize more with the skeptics on this topic, but from an encyclopedic perspective, let's let the dust settle before documenting it with stats in the article. — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work} 20:51, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

You'll have to be more specific. What statistics are documenting what? (SEWilco 01:17, 8 May 2005 (UTC))

Gimme a break. The external links the current exchange is over. — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work} 10:44, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

Those numbers were not statistics documenting the topic. Those numbers were given, assuming you read the articles, to distinguish between the subjects. Article 1 featured a 75% number which was contradicted by Article 2, while Article 3 ignores those results and examines 3% of the data. (SEWilco 17:57, 8 May 2005 (UTC))

That link happens to be redundant anyway. It is a link to a newspaper article, but a link to the journal item is in the article. (SEWilco 03:24, 9 May 2005 (UTC))

Where at, specifically? This is a freakin' long article and my eyes are tired. — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work} 03:48, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

The "Counting experts" section: A 2004 essay in Science surveyed abstracts of peer-reviewed research articles related to climate change. (SEWilco 03:56, 9 May 2005 (UTC))

But I thought you wanted to post a link refuting it. No longer interested in doing that? — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work} 04:35, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

They're different links. (SEWilco 06:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC))

Guess I'm lost on what you were trying to do in the first place, then. Oh well... — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work} 06:56, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

Template:mainarticle

The wrong template is being used. If you click on Template:mainarticle you'll see that is not an actual template. You end up at Template:main with the note (Redirected from Template:Mainarticle). In Template talk:Main you'll see that main is for use at the top of specialized articles (such as article hot water might mention to see main article water). Template:seemain is for usage within articles. The difference is also shown in Wikipedia:Template_messages/Links#Internal_links. (SEWilco 03:34, 9 May 2005 (UTC))

All right. Thanks for the info. I've seen it go back and forth in various articles. — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work} 03:45, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

GHG strawman

What meaning of "correlation" is not the basis of the assertion that GHGs cause global warming? (SEWilco 05:56, 14 May 2005 (UTC))

"One argument against global warming questions the contention that rising levels of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases (GHGs) correlate with—and thus have caused—global warming. However, this amounts to questioning a strawman, since the assertion that GHGs cause global warming is not based on correlation at all: see attribution of recent climate change."

(William M. Connolley 22:04, 16 May 2005 (UTC)) I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. The mathematical defn of "correlation" is the one that *isn't* used in D+A to demonstrate causation.

Temporary injunction

Copied here from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/William M. Connolley and Cortonin#Temporary injunction:

Since revert wars between the Cortonin and William M. Connolley have continued through this arbitration, both users are hereby barred from reverting any article related to climate change more than once per 24 hour period. Each and every revert (partial or full) needs to be backed up on the relevant talk page with reliable sources (such as peer reviewed journals/works, where appropriate). Administrators can regard failure to abide by this ruling as a violation of the WP:3RR and act accordingly. Recent reverts by Cortonin [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=prev&oldid=14076250) [8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=prev&oldid=14072065) [9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=prev&oldid=13847381) [10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=prev&oldid=13828814) [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Solar_greenhouse_%28technical%29&diff=0) by William M. Connolley [12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=0) [13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ross_McKitrick&diff=prev&oldid=14082906) [14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=14085987) [15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=14077463) [16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greenhouse_effect&diff=prev&oldid=14083726) Additional reverts by others involved in these revert wars may result in them joining this case.

--mav 22:49, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

SEPP edits

Curious about Beland's recent edit. Can you provide a source that details the other active members of SEPP (ie, proof that it is not a one-man show from Singer?) Thanks. Guettarda 03:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 08:33, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)) Seconded. The article is now double-counting, since it lists SEPP and Singer, without noting that they are the same.

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