Talk:Fallen angel

Contents

1 Sources 2 Koran, Life of Adam and Eve & Bowing to mankind 3 from The Fall from Grace 4 Literature and The Fall from Grace 5 List 6 Discussion copied from Talk:List of fallen angels 6.1 Accuracy 6.2 Merge

Sources

Can someone give sources for this? For example, the phrase "son of fire" appears nowhere in any version of the Bible I can find. These seem (in their details) to be folk stories -- when were they developed? Do they pre-date Christianity, or are they a medieval invention? -- The Anome 08:59, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

"Why should the son of fire fall down before a son of clay?" is the response of the Angel Azazil on being asked to worship Adam: it's from the Koran, not the Bible. You're quite right that we should try to reference whatever is of value in the article to primary sources rather than secondary compilations. -- Prince 09:09, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Now that's really interesting, as I'm sure a lot of people would regard that story as part of their Christian beliefs... I'd be very interested in any source citations you could give to reveal the origins of these accounts. -- The Anome 09:12, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Feel free to change/correct the article. You can use the following texts as reference/sources:

1. Goldwin, Malcom. Angels: An Endangered Species. Gill & Macmillan Ltd. ISBN 0752205706. November 4, 1996.
2. Davidson, Gustaav. A Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels. Free Press. ISBN 002907052X. Reissue edition: October 1, 1994.
3. Ashley, Leonard. The Complete Book of Devils and Demons. Barricade Books. ISBN 1569800774. October 1, 1996.

There are many books about them, just do a search on Amazon with the keywords fallen angel. :)

--Maio 10:47, Jan 22, 2004 (UTC)

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Koran, Life of Adam and Eve & Bowing to mankind

Since the Life of Adam and Eve predates the Muslim religion by 500 years or so, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute the story of Lucifer refusing to bow to mankind to it? I'm posting here because editing the original article would require an entire section to be modified. I can edit the article if general consensus agrees (or if anyone out there wants to research this to make sure). If I don't hear something soon, I'm gonna go ahead an make the change. It's unknown to me whether Milton would have had access to _Life of Adam and Eve_ or not, so the claim that he got his idea from the Koran is at least questionable as well (See _Life of Adam and Eve_ 13-16). --Jleonard

I found two different versions of that book, one here [1] (http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/adamnev.htm) and the other one here [2] (http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/slanev.htm) (Slavanic). I read 13-16 as you said, but I can't find any relation to what you are trying to express. Do you have a link to an online version of the text that you are referring to? I have heard that it was Lucifer also, but in the end they are all religious texts with many continuity flaws. --Maio 22:43, Feb 8, 2004 (UTC)

Here's the version I'm refering to. It's known by "Vita." [3] (http://www.unicorngarden.com/adameve.htm) I read the copy contained in Old Testament Pseudepigrapha - (C) 1983 by James H. Charlesworth. It dates the text to 100 A.D. (which is the date I've also found on the web). Here's a quote from Charlesworth that refers to the dating of this text:

"Given the relationship with the Pseudepigrapha, Josephus, rabbinic traditions, and perhaps Paul, the most natural span for the original composition would be between 100 B.C. and A.D. 200, more probably toward the end of the first Christian century. The Greek and Latin texts were produced between that time and A.D. 400"

--Jleonard

As I said earlier, it is a religious text with continuity flaws. I beleive that it would be better to express something like "Azazeth refused blah blah blah... although in X book that dates from Y says blah blah blah". Thanks for your concerns. :) --Maio 07:12, Feb 10, 2004 (UTC)

OK. Sounds good to me. Would you like to make the changes or would you like me too? Thank you for taking the time to contribute such interesting information to Wikipedia! I appreciate your work. --Jleonard

You. >_< --Maio 22:31, Feb 10, 2004 (UTC)

Maio: OK I edited the page. As I got into the edit process, things sort of morphed away from the intial plan so as to accurately reflect the facts as we have them and also provide smooth transition and integration with the rest of the document. The part that I really thought needed changing was attributing the popular Christian myth to a Muslim source when it is originally a Christian story dating all the way back to 100 A.D. It is in fact, most likely that the Koran borrowed this story from the Book of Adam and Eve which would have been in popular circulation in the Middle East by ~600 A.D. when the Koran was written. If you want to discuss further or there are changes you would like to see made, please let me know or feel free to make them yourself. Thanks, Jonathan

from The Fall from Grace

needs better attribution than "according to legend" —No-One Jones 23:33, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In the Christian religions, The Fall From Grace is the explusion of the angel Lucifer from Heaven by God, possibly for inciting War. Lucifer fell, and it is supposed that he changed his name to Satan, or that his name was changed. According to legend, Lucifer was the brightest angel in Heaven, who rose too close to God and learned a new truth, perhaps a paradox, or even a parallel to Adam and Eve's temptation and exile from Eden. Upon learning some piece of magical knowledge, perhaps from the Tree of Knowledge, Lucifer became Satan, questioning God at every turn, and accusing God of atrocities, thus sparking a war in Heaven. Finally God had the last straw with Lucifer (now Satan) and cast him down to Earth where he lived with mortals for a time before forming his own version of Heaven, Hell. It is suggested that Satan rules Hell much like God rules Heaven, yet with Satan's own leadership style, and thus this can be seen as a kind of spiritual mitosis, where a new lord of a realm besets upon himself almighty power, or at least it is viewed that way by Satanists.

The Fall from Grace, like most myths or legends, is open to many types of interpretation.

Literature and The Fall from Grace

Many works exist depicting The Fall from Grace. By far, the best work of this nature is by Christopher Marlowe, titled The Tragical History of Doctor Faustus. Marlowe examines a learned man's fall from grace, as he sells his soul for power. Mephistopheles argues that Doctor Faustus must honour his contract with the Devil, or suffer a fate far worse than eternal damnation. Faust examines the central theme of despair, leading to any fall from grace, in a religious parody format.

List

It had been correctly pointed out over at "List of fallen angel" that the list had no context, and that there was no guarantee of its accuracy (whatever that means in a case like this). It seemed more sensible to put it here, where it has a context, and where there are presumably editors who can assess its accuracy. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:27, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm more amature at wiki than I'd like to be so I don't know the best way to do this, but shouldn't the discussion pages be merged as well?--Dustin Asby 23:47, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Oh, also. The list would look much better in a table, but, once again, I have no idea how to do that in wiki.--Dustin Asby 23:51, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

The Tables part is easy; I'll bring over the discussion page when I have a moment. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:06, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Discussion copied from Talk:List of fallen angels

Vandal's comment removed by Fire Star 22:51, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Would anyone care to explain what this page is all about? What is the source of the information? Which religion pushes a belief in these things? Currently the list, as information, is useful; it makes sense only if you already know the context. A few introductary words in the article would be useful. --Tagishsimon (talk)

Accuracy

This page doesn't match up very well with Hierarchy of Devils. I understand that the list is based off of the idea of choirs of angels generated in medieval times, but who is in which group seems to be getting mixed up. --Dustin Asby 21:59, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Merge

Both the comments above seem to the point, so I've merged the list with and redirected the article to Fallen angel, where it has a context, and where there should be editors who can assess its "accuracy". Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:30, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:46, 25 May 2005 (UTC)