Talk:Evolutionary creationism

Theistic evolution is the position promoted by most major Christian churches, some Judaism denominations and other religious organizations that don't subscribe to a literalist position with regards to their scriptures.

If "most" major Christian churches promote this, then I wonder why I haven't heard about it yet. I've spent a lot of time talking with other Christians, reading Christian books and magazines, etc. How could I have missed this?

Is it a POV of some evolution advocates that "even lots of churches agree with us", or is it a FACT?

A list of churches whose theology is clearly compatible with evolution would be nice, or at least a few statements by religious leaders. --Uncle Ed 15:28, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Check the external link for one reference. You may not have heard about it under this name, but I'm a little surprised if you've not come across the concept. A list of churches would of course be better - it'd start with the Catholic Church. eg (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05654a.htm). Martin 00:13, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It's not quite that straightforward. For example, my denomination officially has no problem with evolution, but there are still a lot of creationists among the rank-and-file believers. I presume the situation with other churches is similar. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 05:33, Jun 26, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Why EC over TE? 2 False info 2.1 Evolutionary biologists who were also theists 3 Comments on individuals within this article 4 Views of Kenneth Miller 5 Proposal: split Theistic evolution from Evolutionary creationism

Why EC over TE?

I believe the article should be titled Theistic Evolution, with Evolutionary Creationism as the alternative name. Theistic evolution is simply the term that is most commonly accepted, and in fact, I have not even heard of Evolutionary Creationism until the past year, and I am heavily involved in these discussions over a wide variety of forums. Even a quick check in Google will show which one is the one generally used. This is of course, assuming they are even the same thing, and of course, I'd prefer they be split. But if they must be together, I propose that Theistic Evolution should be the term used as Evolutionary Creationism itself is not very neutral and most people who hold this position would probably rather be lumped in the Evolution side of the debate than with the Creationist side as far as the scientific aspects go.

Furthermore, a lot of us feel there is a difference between Creation and CreationISM. Generally, us TEs will probably accept the following statement: We believe in Creation, we reject Creationism, and we accept evolution. If any other TE/ECs feel differently, feel free to respond.

Basically, the whole -ism makes it feel very non-NPOV, but then again, not having the -ism could be argued as non-NPOV by the Creationists as well. Dracil 21:25, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Upon further examination, it appears this whole thing was a result of MyRedDice who created these two articles, but chose to make EC the main article while TE redirect to it. There is no real good basis for this (and I hope, I have offered enough to show why it should in fact, be reversed). Dracil 21:37, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

False info

Evolutionary biologists who were also theists

Although evolutionary biologists are often atheists (most notably Richard Dawkins), there have been some who were theists too. Alfred Russel Wallace (1823 — 1913), who in 1858 jointly proposed the theory of evolution by natural selection with Charles Darwin, was a theist, though Darwin's views remain unclear. Theodosius Dobzhansky (1900 — 1975), one of the of the modern evolutionary synthesis wrote a famous 1973 essay entitled Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution espousing evolutionary creationism:

I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God's, or Nature's method of creation. Creation is not an event that happened in 4004 BC; it is a process that began some 10 billion years ago and is still under way

Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts. ...the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness.

Another architect of the synthesis, Ronald Fisher (1890 — 1962) was also a Christian. More recently Brown University Professor Kenneth R. Miller, author of many textbooks has written on the subject. [1] (http://bms.brown.edu/faculty/m/kmiller/)

Comments on individuals within this article

• Alfred Wallace did not "jointly propose" natural selection. Wallace first thought of natural selection in 1858 but Darwin had been working on natural selection for the past twenty years before then. Darwin's On the Origin of Species was published in 1859. Wallace's first natural selection-related analysis was published in 1863.

• • Lyell and Hooker presented Wallace's essay, along with sections by Darwin to the Linnean Society of London in 1858, so the first public presentation was by both Darwin and Wallace. G Rutter 22:10, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Alfred Wallace was a spiritualist, not a creationist nor a theist. His spiritualism was also restricted to natural laws and negatively viewed the concept of miracles. Also, he "converted" to spiritualism around 1869 and became a socialist in 1889 after reading Edward Bellamy's Looking Backward.

• • On the Wikipedia article it states he believed that :" "the unseen universe of Spirit" had interceded at least three times in history: 1. The creation of life from inorganic matter. 2. The introduction of consciousness in the higher animals. 3. The generation of the above-mentioned faculties in mankind." I think this belief falls within the definition of evolutionary creationism. G Rutter 22:10, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Theodosius Dobzhansky's 1973 essay titled Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution was a criticism of creationism and an espousal of evolutionary creationism.

• • Which is exactly what it says. G Rutter 22:10, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Ronald Fisher was not devout or dogmatic Christian. In fact, he opposed traditional Christian teachings. From his biography (http://www.library.adelaide.edu.au/digitised/fisher/index.html): His respect for tradition, and his conviction that all men are not equal, inclined him politically towards conservatism, and made him an outspoken and lasting opponent of Marxism. Although he did not subscribe to the dogmas of religion, he saw no reason to abandon the faith in which he had been brought up, and believed that the practice of religion was a salutary and humbling human activity. As he said in a broadcast on Science and Christianity (1955):

"The custom of making abstract dogmatic assertions is not, certainly, derived from the teaching of Jesus, but has been a widespread weakness among religious teachers in subsequent centuries. I do not think that the word for the Christian virtue of faith should be prostituted to mean the credulous acceptance of all such piously intended assertions. Much self-deception in the young believer is needed to convince himself that he knows that of which in reality he knows himself to be ignorant. That surely is hypocrisy, against which we have been most conspicuously warned."

• • But, nonetheless, it says "he saw no reason to abandon the faith in which he had been brought up", so, however unorthodox, he remained a believer in both God and evolution. G Rutter 22:10, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Views of Kenneth Miller

• Kenneth Miller is an opponent of intelligent design; thus, he's an opponent of creationism, however, he has written a single book on the religious implications of evolution titled Finding Darwin's God. Such a book is not, necessarily, an advocation of evolutionary creationism.

• • Not necessarily, but in extracts from the book here (http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Brown_Alumni_Magazine/00/11-99/features/darwin.html) he states that "evolution is the key to understanding God" and that he believes in God (as well as evolution). I think it's therefore fair to characterise him as an evolutionary creationist. G Rutter 22:10, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Moral of the story: if you're going to write an entry, check your facts before submission.

"First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure." -- Mark Twain

Adraeus 06:08, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I was not the original author, but I have checked all the criticisms and I do not believe that any of the statements distorts the facts. I have now revised this section somewhat, but I've included much of what was written before, so have included specific rebuttals to all Adraeus' points directly below his points. G Rutter 22:10, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Proposal: split Theistic evolution from Evolutionary creationism

In my opinion it would be useful to separate the article on Theistic evolution and give it a different emphasis from the article on Evolutionary creationism, while acknowledging an overlap and linking the articles. At the moment links to Theistic evolution are redirected here, even though both links sometimes appear in the same article.

Given the association of Creationism with opposition to Darwinian natural selection, I'd suggest that the emphasis in Evolutionary creationism should be on those believing that God is directly involved in the formation of new species, while those who think of God as not intervening in species formation after initially creating life and/or setting up laws would appear under Theistic evolution. At present there doesn't seem to be a place for creationist positions like Richard Owen's "ordained continuous becoming" or Charles Lyell's episodic "centres of creation", and these could be added to the Evolutionary creationism article.

I agree that there is a significant difference between the two. At the moment, this article is still small, and there is some relationship between the two ideas. So for the moment I would suggest rewriting parts of this article to clarify the differences that you point out. Today I rewrote the introduction to begin clarifying this point. Please tell me what you think. Don't be afraid to offend me by rewriting my text, or totally disagreeing!

The article on Creationism says of Evolutionary creationism that " Many creationists would deny that this is creationism at all, and should rather be called theistic evolution, just as many scientists allow voice to their spiritual side.", but links these two different positions effectively to this same page. I'm happy to have a go at splitting these articles to overcome this anomaly, but would welcome comments before proceeding. .dave souza 19:38, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As I understand these terms, the phrase Evolutionary creationism usually refers to the general belief that some or all classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of the scientific theory of evolution. If most people who use this term hold that God is directly involved in the formation of new species, then this indeed should be noted as having the emphasis on Creationism, with evolution tacked on as a secondary concern. RK

I have been hearing the term theistic evolution used to describe the view that the acceptance of evolutionary biology is not fundamentally different from the acceptance of other sciences, such as astronomy or meteorology. In this view, it is held to be religiously correct to reinterpret ancient religious texts in line with modern-day scientific findings about evolution. Is my understanding of this useage correct? (BTW Reinterpreting ancient texts to match the findings of modern day science and philosophy is not new. Many of the medieval religious rationalists, such as Maimonides, did just this.) RK 20:15, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that there's much of a distinction between the two terms (at the moment I'd certainly be happy to use either to describe myself), though I'm very probably wrong! I'd be more convinced if we could find a few evolutionary creationists/theistic evolutionists claiming that they were one and not the other and why. The quote from the creationism page doesn't seem to draw a distinction between the two- except to try and make "theisitic evolution" somehow perjorative. Perhaps, rather, we need to go and fix the links? Surely any form of evolutionary creationism is an attempt to synthesize an understanding that God created the universe with a scientific understanding of how this occurred. Of course, there are different understandings of how this synthesis should be managed, but I'm still confused by the distinction you're trying to draw. Sorry, this is probably just me! --G Rutter 20:37, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As per the request at Talk:Evolution, can I sugest the Creation continum at TalkOrigins.org (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wic.html#continuum). They say:

Joe D (t) 21:16, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There are currently two conjectures which I am aware of that seek to weave evolution into their framework, both of which can be seen as reasonable or problematic, depending on your viewpoint:

1. The Day-Age Theory

States that the six-days of the Genesis creation are commonly misinterpreted to each be representations of longer timespans. (1 God day = millions of man years.) This can be countered with several tangibles which tend to prove that the earth is only around 6,000 years old. I suppose I'll just throw a few of these out: the oldest tree on earth is a bristlecone pine that is approximately 4,400 years old. The great barrier reef, dated by measuring the growth rate for twenty consecutive years, is less than 4,200 years old. The Coriolis Effect, which is proportional to the speed of the Earth's rotation, causes the prevailing wind currents -- with this in mind, the calculations from the expansions of the Sahara desert (appx 2 miles/year) show the desert to be about 4,000 years old. And lastly, Earth's declining magnetic field, measured in studies over the past 140 years, show that as few as 25,000 years ago, Earth would not have been able to support life because of the heat from the electric current.

1. The Gap Theory

Though there tend to be as many interpretations of this theory as there are theologians, the basic idea behind it is that there is a gap of an unknown length of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. (KJ) If you use this to tie in evolution with creation, you have quite a problem because death would bring man into the world. According to Genesis, man's sin brought death into the world, not the other way around.

If more examples are needed I would be much obliged. I believe both of these theories to be insufficient for supporting an agreement between creation and evolution. Aside from that argument, evolution has its issues as well. That is why the opinion in the intro to the evolution article is inappropriate and even deceptive. Please refer to the discussion archives to see the affinitive details of my position on this. Salva31 05:19, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Salva, give it up. We simply do not care what you believe! We are only trying to describe evolution accurately, in accord with NPOV policy. And by the way, evolution does not "have its issues as well". That is mere fundamentalist propaganda, and very-well debunked propaganda at that. RK

Well, RK, your analysis is a little flawed. Many of the things used to support evolution in the past have been proven wrong. This process is continuing, and I guarantee you, one piece at a time, evolution is a religion masked as a science that is steadily crumbling away into history. If you do not believe me on this, I told you to refer to the archives. I am not propagandizing, nor am I a fundamentalist. You are not playing this game in a fair way by saying that. If you don't care, then that's fine, and I'm sorry that you choose to be so close minded. In this country, it is appropriate to display a reference article that talks about a theory, but frankly it is not right to target other supported theories using deceitful propaganda in the process. That comment is there because some people feel insecure about the ability of that article to convert readers to its belief system. You might as well stop telling me to go away; it only engages me further. Salva31 09:46, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Salva, I have never offered any analysis on the subject. The existence of biological evolution is a scientific fact that has nothing to do with anything I wrote. Further, none of the things that have supported evolution have been proven wrong. Please stop proselytizing us with your wildly anti-Scientific fairy tales. BTW, when you say "You might as well stop telling me to go away; it only engages me further." you clearly expose yourself as a troll, here for the sole purpose of disrupting our project. If you continue trolling you will be pulled before the ArbCom. So go ahead and try and insult us all that you want -it will only make your eventual ban come only sooner. RK

Joe D, thanks for reminding us about the Creation continum analysis at TalkOrigins.org. I had read that a while ago, but didn't even think about it when I wrote my question. Unless others have a reason to disagree, I think that we should go with their definitions. RK 02:03, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

The continum is a propaganda device rather than a legitimate educational tool; the listing of tiny fringe minorities like flat earthers along with other creationists is an example of several propaganda techniques. Wikipedia is not a propaganda tool and the minute fringe groups should be rimoved. A link to the propaganda site that proposes that grouping is more than sufficient.Pollinator 02:39, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Joe D, the Creation continuum analysis seems a good basis: noting that the continuum runs from Creation to Evolution, the tipping point between the opposing sides lies between Evolutionary creationism and Theistic evolution and this could support the case for separate articles: it may also be noted that many Christians, including Roman Catholics, come under the Theistic evolution definition, and so it seems wrong that they should be in an article with a creationist heading. Salva31, the analysis gives several more examples of theories. My question about Owen's and Lyell's theories is answered: they come under Progressive Creationism, a sub-set of Old Earth Creationists which doesn't seem to be covered in that article, so that's another task to tackle..dave souza 22:02, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I can't imagine how you can imply that Roman Catholics are not Creationists. Catholics believe that God is intimately involved in Creation, whatever tool he used. Cutting a distinction between evolutionary creationism and theistic evolution is a bit ridiculous, but I think the first term is preferable, because it does emphasize that Catholics share much in common and should be grouped with other creationists.Pollinator 02:39, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Pollinator. I think the definitions given by TalkOrigins are somewhat confused and are more concerned at establishing a continuum than accurately defining the terms they use. I think this is especially shown by the references they use- Schneider spends a lot of her article arguing that all Christian creationists are wrong because they don't use Jewish ways of interpreting the Torah.

TalkOrigins argues that the two positions differ only in their theology. It then does not explain these differences. Both definitions include God operating through evolution, with some aspects being outside modern science, eg the human soul/the first spiritually aware human. I also don't see how any sensible definition of Evolutionary Creationism can include accepting a "literal Genesis"- this is covered by Old Earth or Gap creationism.

I think that the reason there is two phrases to cover the same position is because some people want to use "Theistic Evolution" to avoid using the word "creationism", either becuase of the negative image that creationism might invokes or, if you're a creationist, to deny that Theistic Evolution/Evolutionary Creationism is an acceptable belief for a Christian to have.

Again, if anyone can provide other references that contradict my understanding I'm more than happy to have my mind changed! --G Rutter 08:29, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As there seems to be a fair consensus about keeping these two headings merged, I've had a go at revising links on other pages to reflect this, and have added a page on Progressive Creationism for clarification ..dave souza 12:31, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Took out the info that implied that majority of Christianity doesn't agree with Evolution; it does, as I expanded upon. Also added section on the Christian justification for Evolution, or rather the Christian justification for non-literal interpretation of Genesis. ..User:Apokryphos