Talk:Historical Eastern Germany

Contents

1 Neo-Nazi content ??? 2 Wikipedia is supposed to be descriptive 3 taken from Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress 4 Peace treaty after WW2 5 cut from Wikipedia:Protected page and pasted here 6 3 millions killed 7 1970 treaty 8 more wordage 9 "Historical" Eastern Germany

Neo-Nazi content ???

This page contains a Neo-Nazi, content which is offensive and insulting, starting the World War II again, and should be removed. Mestwin of Gdansk 18:05, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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If this page should be more than a redirect to East Germany then it needs to talk about the area now - ie a discussion of east/west differences etc. Secretlondon 18:43, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)

Niko, what's that war you're waging? You cannot just cut out approaches that question the right wing view! And how many Germans Stalin killed is NOT pertaining to Eastern Germany, cruel as it might have been.*

Max

• Sorry, I mixed up the versions here. But the first sentence holds true!

Max

Pardon? I'm not sure what you mean. The deaths of 3 million East Germans are indeed highly relevant. Nico 20:49, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And "It is now considered politically extremely incorrect" is nothing but your point of view, and I will remove it again. Nico 20:53, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Try saying that publicly in Germany and see what happens! The the importance of the death toll is of course conceded, I just forgot to copy it.

Cheers, Max

It's still a point of view, and there are many Germans, for instance the approximately 2 million members of BdV or a Landsmannschaft, who are willing to say it publicly. That makes it a controversial issue. Thus, we have to avoid a sort of POV on it. Nico 21:03, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And the Landsmannschaften aren't politically incorrect with the term in the sense of "hurt nobody, scare nobody?" If I had wanted to spread my POV it would have been much different. In the article about Hitler there could be no moral judgment (which I didn't make), because it might disturb its objectivity regarding some people who are actually fond of killing Jews? Just a thought.

Max

You may dislike the Landsmannschaften or the CDU/CSU or the Labour political party in Britain or whatever, but an encyclopedia still should be neutral. And conserning Hitler, as long as there are little accept for moral judgements in the articles dealing with Stalin and other war criminals, the Hitler article should be more NPOV as well in my opinion. Nico 22:11, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Which does not disprove my point that referring to the two wings of ex-German territory as being situated in Eastern Germany would be considered politically incorrect. Actually, that is an understatement. If a politician said it, people would consider him dangerously revanchist. But jedem das Seine. Who would benefit from a colder Hitler article? P.S.: Oh, yeah, seen your history. Won't correct your stuff any longer lest I run into more POV accusations. Much too exhausting. I know others have given up. I'll leave it up to the Americans who know the stories from Landser-mags. This way, it's not going to be balanced, but one is at a certain ease with being a German, cos, like, the others were always meaner.

Somewhat irritable, Max

I really don't think this article is the place for this. There are already articles on these groups - if only they believe this then it should stay there. Secretlondon 22:35, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Methinks it can very well stay as it is now. Max

I'm very sorry about the statement about "Americans" above. I know there are Americans writing for wiki with an amount of knowledge that I can never hope to attain, and with great political integrity. I just noticed that right-wing positions are swallowed much more naturally by many, which I sometimes doubt is healthy. For Germans, 50 years perpetrators, love victimizing themselves since 2000 for all kinds of things. DOn't believe all you hear

Sorry, Max

The rest of my statement remains unchanged.

Wikipedia is supposed to be descriptive

I must admit that it breaks my hart to, basically, restore a User:Wik version, and I am suspicious of Wik's expertise when it comes to matters of contemporary Germany, BRD and DDR, but comparing the last version by Wik with the last version by Nico, the former is quite simply so much more correct and the latter so much more propagandist: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Eastern_Germany&diff=2663272&oldid=2654218

This is not to say that the version I restore, in my humble opinion, be perfect - only much less flawed than the current.

However, I strongly oppose the idea that the term "Middle Germany" should have been anyhow "invented" after 1945. I wasn't born then, but what happened, I guess, is that an already used term became politically charged.
--Ruhrjung 08:39, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

taken from Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress

Eastern Germany should be together with East Germany. Nico is removing an interesting staff from Erika Steinbach without any reason. Cautious 22:38, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• Eastern Germany is a completely different article, and it not dealing with the German Democratic Republic. And the Gabrielle Lesser article is not about Erika Steinbach, and there is no need to copy the whole Erika Steinbach article. Besides, you are inserting strong POVs. Nico 22:57, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• • Eastern Germany cannot be about something else then East Germany, because both terms are too close to each other. Cautious 23:43, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• • • I have proposed to move East Germany to German Democratic Republic, which was rejected. As long as East Germany is dealing with the former state of DDR this article will stay here. Nico 23:46, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• • • • It should be crearly stated that this is only about irredentsim, Anyway misleadingCautious 23:51, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Peace treaty after WW2

Dealing with sentence: However, the final article of the memorandum said that the final regulations concerning Germany were subject to a separate peace treaty. This treaty wasn't signed until 1990.

The treaty was never signed. Why 1950 and 1970 treaties are missing. Cautious 23:48, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Because the 1970 treason by the DDR spy Herbert Frahm only recognized the borders temporarely as factual, although the areas were still considered rightfully German. Nico 23:53, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"treason by the DDR spy Herbert Frahm"? And some people here were thinking Nico was a serious contributor! --Wik 00:17, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

Just the comment we would expect from a supporter of DDR, claiming that this police state was not totalitarian. Nico 00:20, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nico, pro personam arguments are not what wkipedia wants. I'm sure you are intelligent enough to find some serious arguments, you don't have to use namecalling.Halibutt 18:41, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

But it were recognized in 1970. Cautious 23:57, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No. It wasn't. Anyway, the DDR paid CDU members of the parliament to vote for Frahm, so it was treason and it was illegal. Nico 00:00, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You are kidding. Treaty is a treaty Cautious 00:10, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nico, apparently you forgot that the treaty was ratified by the Bundestag. All of the MPs were bribed as well? And the Germans who voted for them?Halibutt 18:41, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

cut from Wikipedia:Protected page and pasted here

• Eastern Germany - edit war between Cautious and Nico. Cautious wants it redirected to East Germany, and Nico is reverting. →Raul654 22:24, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)
  • Simple vandalism. User:Cautious is blanking an article he doesn't like. That is a blockable offense. Nico 22:28, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • (As a disinterested observer) - He's not blanking the page, he's redirecting it. They are not the same thing. →Raul654 22:43, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)
      • Is there a practical difference between replacing this page with a redirect to Wikipedia:Village Pump or just blanking it? Nico 22:46, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
        • Is there any reason for having East Germany and Eastern Geramany other then East is already protected because of your edits and you want at every price have your own Eastern Germany? Put your acceptable version to East Germany. Cautious 22:57, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
          • East Germany is dealing with the German Democratic Republic. They are different articles dealing with completely different issues. Nico 23:05, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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As a fairly neutral observer, couldn't this be solved by putting a header at the top of the article saying something like:

This article is about the former region of eastern Germany, not to be confused with East Germany the former communist state.

Such a header is used at Irish Republic the historic state, which is easily confused with the Republic of Ireland. G-Man 19:26, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)~

Sounds like a good idea. Nico 05:45, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

For everyone not so familiar with rightwingish delusions: Herbert Frahm = Willy Brandt

Though they murdered six millions, in the ovens they fried, the Germans now too have God on their side (Bob Dylan). PUH-LEASE! Brandt was merely stating the obvious, the existence of another state, which had a government and citizens. The only one that would totally ignore that was your hero Walter Hallstein. Of course it was also treason by Brandt not to shoot Russians 41-45, right? And it's POV to state that the Germans disguised as Poles attacked Gliwice in 1939, right? Call me a traitor. I've been living here long enough to know my facts. Max

Yes, his citizenship was revoked. He didn't serve his country. He was a traitor. Even now, republican Americans consider people who didn't serve in the Vietnam war, where they killed million of Vietnamese civilians, unpatriotic or traitors. SO why shouldn't German traitors be considered traitors? You are living in Berlin, where my mother was born, and where she studied as well in the 70'ies. You do not have much freedom of speech in Germany, so thing isn't changed much since the 30'ies. You only have new lords in your house. Allied war-time propaganda does not interest me. Outside Germany, the history is not so black and white as you think.

You do not have much freedom of speech in Germany, so thing isn't changed much since the 30'ies. I'd be interested to know where the hell you got that idea from... --Palapala 09:35, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

As for the DDR, it was not a state. And it had no citizens. The inhabitants were citizens of Germany and occupied by Soviet. There is a difference. Frahm was a socialist whose ideal was Soviet. Of course he recognized their puppet state(s). Would you expect such a person, and such a Trunkenbold, to do otherwise? His staff was even paid by Stasi. However, I would like to cite Herbert Hupka, who expressed the opinion of loyal Germans: "Das Deutsche Reich existiert fort. [...] Ostdeutschland umfaßt nicht nur Ostdeutschland jenseits von Oder und Neiße, also den heute unter polnischer und sowjetischer Herrschaft stehenden Teil des Deutschen Reiches, sondern auch das Sudetenland und die deutschen Siedlungsgebiete zwischen Ostsee und Schwarzem Meer." (Dr. Herbert Hupka, MdB, 1984) -- Nico 06:58, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And I thought we long ago abandoned the idea of "SBZ" and "DDR" (as opposed to DDR). And of course there were citizens. You could visit them and talk to them, if you wanted. (One of the nicer outcomes of the Ostverträge which the cited Trunkenbold helped get under way.) --Palapala 09:35, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)

I would like to cite Herbert Hupka, who expressed the opinion of loyal Germans

Loyal to what? I'm loyal to my conscience, not to some abstract patriotic duty. I don't hate Germany. I just would hate a Germany that wants to expand after failing miserably twice. It doesn't and that's just fine.

In fact, people here are allowed to talk a lot of nonsense publicly (though clearly not as much as elsewhere) if they like (and boy, some people do!) if only they don't deny the Holocaust which I take you don't do. Fact is just that most people don't use their freedom of speech to talk nonsense. The Günter Guillaume affair could have happened to anyone and did not influence Brandt's Ostpolitik, you know that as well as I do. He just wanted Germans to get real and deal with facts. Stop your slander. The GDR was very real indeed. As for Hupka - he was a typical case of unbelehrbar. And it's not a bad thing not to take part in an aggressive war you don't believe in. Actually, in this case, it's not even right if you do. I don't care if German history is considered greyer elsewhere. Modest behaviour is a moral duty. Know what's criminal? To keep the man in charge of the Rassengesetze in office. I might cite the expellee Dieter Hildebrandt at this point, but won't, lest you call him a traitor too. It's not political correctness, it's moral decency.

Max

"Aggressive war you don't believe in"? Which aggressive war? Even Stauffenberg and most of his friends were in favour of liberating the areas occupied by Poland since the first world war. As Great Britain dominated most of the world, and they had stolen the very few colonies of Germany, it was not exceptional that Germany wanted some land as well. So was the spirit of that time. To the West, Germany offered peace, in fact they did not even declare war. Great Britain did. And the Soviets were not much better, they attacked Poland themselves. And how about the US, Great Britain or Poland? These states attacked Iraq last year, according to the Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs because they wanted oil (see BBC's article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3043330.stm)). Germany just did what other states also did and STILL ARE DOING! Btw, USA, with their long history of slavery and genocide of Africans as well as native Americans, had Rassengesetze until the 60'ies or 70'ies. So there are a lot of criminal Americans as well. Nico 08:36, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

>I just would hate a Germany that wants to expand after failing miserably twice. It doesn't and that's just fine.

I'm not sure what "expand" is referring to. Truly, a Great Power like Germany is not dependent on large amounts of land anymore, and there are other ways. The British have lost their colonies as well. But if you are referring to Eastern Germany, it is a matter of recognition of human rights, and I reserve the right to be in favour of liberation of these areas, because they belongs to Germany and to the people of Prussia. You might also be interested to know that, in Scandinavia, German claims on Eastern Germany, especially the Königsberg region, are not considered "right-wing" in the same degree as in Germany. Most Scandinavians will understand such a claim, although it is not a very actual topic here. Btw, this is a highly interesting site: http://www.german-foreign-policy.com -- Nico 09:11, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Did I say I was a fan of Stauffenberg's? There is no such thing as "Prussia" any more. As I said, I don't care what people in other countries think. You lose a war, you have to carry the consequences. You know that Munich 38 was bogus, Neville Chamberlain was butter in the hands of Hitler. And whether you declare war or not is not crucial here. Crucial is whether you wage war. And the British didn't even help Poland! And - just because other countries treated their minorities badly that doesnt mean that the Nazi crimes were any less harmful. By the way, I'm against the US meddling with Arabia. Max

The thing is, that the history is written by the victors. Certainly they forced the Germans to "carry the consequences", with ethnic cleansing of half of my country, and most of the part which means something to me. But I do not understand your position. What the mostly Bavarian and Austrian Nazis did in a different century is not the responsibility of the Prussian people, which tried to get rid of them. And the crimes of the stalinists, or the US, were even worse, they killed (and deported) a lot more people. However, the genocide of between 10 and 50 million people committed by the Russians are of course not the responsibility of young people in Russia today, and the genocide of million of African people who were killed in slave transports are not the responsibility of today's young people in the US. And they do not take and carry that responsibility either. See? Not many Americans feel responsible for the crimes committed as late as during the Vietnam war, or Israelis for the crimes committed against the Palestinian people. There is of course a difference between all these countries and Germany: They were not defeated. But that is a question of military force, nothing else. If the Arabs occupied Israel, the Israeli people would learn in school that their country was bad and that the Arabs liberated them. Some Israelis would believe that as well.

>There is no such thing as "Prussia" any more.

Indeed, there is. I'm a Prussian myself. Although a nation in exile, Prussia still exists. It was also prososed to rename Berlin-Brandenburg Prussia if the states were merged (which they wasn't, unfortunately). But Prussia - as a politicial entity - will rise again. Preußen soll leben!!
Nico 16:28, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nein, Preußen ist tot.

And that has more with Prussia's glory to do than with the Nazis' exploitation of traditional Prussian virtues (efficiency, Protestant Work Ethics...) and non-virtues (as unquestioning obedience, for instance). Prussia had become a symbol of industriousness, expansionism and militarism, which had raised and united Germany after the disastrous Napoleonic Wars, but also been a chief contributor to two world wars.

Prussia is dismembered. The sooner Germany could get over the loss of East-Prussia, West-Prussia, Pommerania and Silesia, the better for the German people.

...and for the neighbouring people.
I'm convinced that the very worst things Polish nationalists can do today, is to provoke a nationalist response from within Germany.

Things have gone good for Germany. Feeding thoughts on a revenge leads to nothing but the ultimate disaster.
--Ruhrjung 17:05, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
P.S.
And don't forget that large and important parts of what became Prussia in the 18th and 19th centuries still remain in Germany.

Generalization has become all too rampant now. Sample:

What the mostly Bavarian and Austrian Nazis did in a different century is not the responsibility of the Prussian people

You're right, after the hyper-Prussian Hindenburgian parties brought Hitler to power there wasn't much of a chance to get rid of him any more. The notion that the Nazis were a Southern phenomenon is ridiculous. You won't tend away the Polish people that settled in the region after 1945, no matter how hard you try. That phenomenon had nothing whatsoever in common with the Jewish settlers in Palestine prior to 1948. Germany's main objective is to live in peace with its neighbours, and that's what we're doing, and that's what our history calls us to do.

And my personal favourite:

It was also prososed to rename Berlin-Brandenburg Prussia if the states were merged

Those were the days :-) I've rarely ever laughed as hard as back then. Although I must admit that the proposed castle should look somewhat more pleasant than the Palast der Republik. It was utterly, utterly incoherent.

>"The notion that the Nazis were a Southern phenomenon is ridiculous. "

Ridiculous? München was even officially named the Hauptstadt der Bewegung. Why was Prussia destroyed, and not Bavaria?

>"Germany's main objective is to live in peace with its neighbours, and that's what we're doing, and that's what our history calls us to do."

Maybe your history calls you to do something like that, but, please, only speak for yourself. Nico 20:59, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nico, did I get you wrong or did you just state that a new war in Europe is what Germany needs? I hope it's my English, and not your beliefs.Halibutt 22:28, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

3 millions killed

Could anyone provide any data to prove this right?Halibutt 19:00, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I'd like to ask for the same. Davies cites a document of Berlin's Allied Administration Commitee stating that there were 3.5 millions Germans for transfer. You speak of 15 millions. Cite your sources please. -- Forseti 09:01, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Any sources, Nico? I'd like to hear them. Especially that if I correct the numbers you'll probably start an edit war...Halibutt 09:41, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So far I placed a {{msg:disputed}} tag over the whole article. In case anyone tried to erase it - please Cite your sources first.Halibutt 09:52, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think this is a good example of how to use the msg:disputed trailer. First raise the issue at the talk page, if no concensus is reached there, one can either remove the contested claim, or if that meets opposition flag the article as disputed. --Ruhrjung 11:43, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that I'm pretty sure Nico would erase the {{msg:diputed}} and remove any other version. But apparently there's no choice...Halibutt 10:04, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nico, you keep ignoring this question and adding the 3 millions number. Wikipedia:Quote your sources. Please, quote your sources or else this childish edit war will never end. Halibutt 00:05, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nico, are you there?Halibutt 09:52, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm basically not reverting the number, but rather the POVs. I posted some casualities here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Casualities) and have also admitted that "over 2 million" maybe is more precise than "until 3 million". Nico 04:40, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

i like the present wording - now it's finally clear that these numbers are disputable and the figure given is bdv's version, not a G*d-given truth. Good job!Halibutt

1970 treaty

Nico, why are you constantly deleting any mention of the border treaty? Halibutt 05:34, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

more wordage

"Some revisionist allegedly claim, that in" Among other things, that's obviously POV. ugen64 02:34, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

"Historical" Eastern Germany

Historical Eastern Germany? Who invented that term? Surely Eastern Germany or Eastern Germany (historical) are preferable.

That's a good question. 'Historical' suggests that it was German as long as Germany goes. Incidentally the majority of the area got German (then Prussian) in 18th century and remained so for 123-144 years. Also using the term would lead to paradox of calling the same terrain both historically German and historically Polish. I primarily mean Greater Poland, the cradle of Polish nationality. So perhaps the title should be changed to 'Former Eastern Germany' or similar, less charged term.

Agree. The title of the article is misleading and should be changed. Wojsyl 16:27, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Also there is existing article on Regained Territories that deals with the same territory, just crediting them with Polish name. So perhaps both articles should be merged into one, with existing Historical Eastern Germany and Regained Territories made redirects. -- Forseti 17:38, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yup, I second that. With the only difference that there should be a brief (three to five sentences at most) description of the term Regained Territories in that article, especially that it is really used in Poland. The rest, however, could be merged. Perhaps the Oder-Neisse Line could be merged as well..? Halibutt 17:48, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Merging will be a challenge to NPOV. Currently the "Historical Eastern Germany" obviously reflects some German POV that is not necessarily fully shared by the rest of the world. Wojsyl 18:00, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Until the articles are merged, I'm going to move this article to a less misguiding title of Eastern Germany (historical) if no one opposes this. Wojsyl 21:26, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I oppose!

This is a far too sensitive area, and particularly Poles ought to remember the problems we have had with regard to articles on towns and provinces in present-day Poland.

Regards!

--Ruhrjung 21:37, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

All right, could you support your opposition with some firm arguments please. Thanks. Wojsyl 21:52, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No. My position is pragmatic. I want to avoid unnecessary blod shed. :-)

I am not sure I favor a merge either, but it is not that I took a position against here. Only the proposed temporary move.

Anyone with the slightest understanding of contemporary Germany must realize that Eastern Germany (historical) by some (trolls and others) would be understood as the new Bunesländer, and thereby you invite to yet a new article on the lost territories.

I'm sure a temporary move have potential to turn out as counter-productive.

I appreciate, however, that you asked before you moved!

--Ruhrjung 22:07, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

I see. (I thought the new Bundesländer would be "former East Germany" in English). I take your pragmatic point, though. Even if still I claim this article title is misguiding and presenting quite biased POV (as the current contents of the article is, as well). Wojsyl 05:32, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)