Talk:Origin belief

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Contents

1 Vote 2 Myths from various cultures 1 Time in the creation stories 2 Incorrect statement 2.1 Reworded things 3 Explanation of deleted section 4 ... 5 Chistian God as "both cause and effect"? 6 Page name 7 Origin vs Origins

Vote

Do you vote for

1. Scientific Theories

or

1. Science Based beliefs

In the section heading for the scientific view of creation?

Scientific Theories

1. Samboy 03:03, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Science-Based beliefs

1. Philip J. Rayment 05:52, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC) "Belief" means "accepting as true"; it doesn't have to refer to something uncertain or unknowable. "Science-based beliefs" is a suitable parallel to "Bible-based beliefs". Referring to one as "scientific theories" implies that the other isn't scientific, which is POV.

Myths from various cultures

Please add creation myths from various cultures.

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Yes Creationism is the Big_bang the very second God determined to BE! The Thought to BE individual went into matter and experience. See, for example, the books of Genesis (for Jews and Christians) or as literally described in the Qur'an (for Muslims, also article on Creation according to Genesis and Evolution.

God the infinity of Creation expresses in all things. This includes the Budda, Jesus, Mohamed, Sai Baba, you and me. Man’s selfishness, greed and desire to control has allowed him to create this experience where we can discover this truth. SO the real question isn’t what religion do we want to preach, but what are we going to do about it. And will we get serious about it before it’s too late?--Stars2man 07:48, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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Hint to whoever created this page: when you create a new page, don't make it a minor edit. Otherwise most people won't see it.

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A creation myth is a specific type of myth? which tells how the Universe, the Earth, life, and/or humanity came into being. A myth is just a story for which there is no documentary or scientific proof.

Is there a way to revise this paragraph to indicate that a 'myth' usually dates from antiquity?

And that the authorship is always untraceable? I mean, it's too late for anyone to create any new myths, because the rest of us would know who wrote it -- or at least when.

If that were true, the Book of Mormon would not have had the success it has had.

The real problem in this opening paragraph is that the universe does not figure in creation myths, which describe the creation only of Earth, Sky (with its visible sun, moon and stars), and Sea. What is the 'life and/or humanity' here? Humanity always figures in any creation myth. Part of the definition of Creation myths must express the fact that they often include imaginary beings but never include dinosaurs or bacteria. User:Wetman

Yes, but that kind of detail should go into the myth article, not here. That's why I linked to it. :-) --Dmerrill

--Ed Poor

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"it's too late for anyone to create any new myths"

I don't think this is true at all. Witness for example the belief that UFO's may bring wisdom or danger from other worlds.

Bingo! I stand corrected. --Ed Poor

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The closing paragraph is a paragon of NPOV:

In the USA, religiously conservative Christians argue that the modern notions of the Big Bang and evolution constitute the creation myth of modern Western civilization. Adherents of these scientific theories respond that unlike the creation myths of earlier cultures, they are subject to verification and refinement by the scientific method, rather than believed only on grounds of authority and faith.

I suppose it's neutral enough, although the second sentence appears to be a non sequitor. I had thought that "creation myth" was being used to label a story about origins that had an impact on a culture, without regard to its veracity. The point of calling the Big Bang theory a creation myth is not to dispute it, but to point out the role it has in shaping the self-image of the society or societies that believe it, similar to the roles that other creation myths have played in different parts of the world and different times in history. If that's the working definition, then any arguments against calling the Big Bang a myth would need to be sociological, i.e. that it hasn't actually shaped the self-image of the societies that subscribe to that view. Which may be perfectly true for all I know. Wesley

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I have a mythology class at my college at the moment so I am rather interested in this subject... one class session we had a lecture led by a philologist, one of the very few who knows ancient Syriac (sp?). He stated that the Genesis description of the creation of humans was a mistranslation, and examination of the oldest texts gives something like "God caused humanity to pause, and he took strength from it and made from it [the strength] the ability to procreate." He based this on the following translations:

• "adam" - man OR humanity in general
• the word translated as "sleep" also means "stop, pause, delay"
• the word translated as "rib" (he pronounced it something like tseyla or tseila, I'm not sure of the spelling) actually has a primary meaning of "strength" and only the seventh or so meaning is "rib".
• "hava" or "hawa" (translated as Eve) meaning the ability to procreate.

Since I doubt he was a "crackpot," I'm wondering if you have any information on these alternate translations. Do you think the article on creation myths should reflect this uncertainty in translation?

I honestly have no idea. However, for one thing, Genesis was written in Hebrew, not Syriac. I also think it somewhat unlikely that traditional understandings going back millenia are wrong, but I suppose they could be. -- SJK

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I was just mentioning that he knew Syriac as a sidenote. The translation was from Hebrew. --KamikazeArchon

I have no idea where that "philologist" got his information. Certainly not from a study of ancient Hebrew. The word translated as "sleep" comes from the idea of being unconscious, as in a deep sleep. The word translated as "rib" has neither that meaning nor strength, rather it has the meaning of frame or side. Which raises the question, did God originally create man androgynous, later taking the feminine side out of him to make woman? The name "Chawah" (German "ch" as in Bach) stems from an irregular root meaning to live, it has nothing to do with procreation. These "crackpot" ideas should not be mirrored in the article.

Melamed 23:14, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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The Documentary hypothesis is not hypothetical all the way through. There are elements of it which are purely observational. The hypothetical part is that separate sources were redacted, edited and merged together, to explain the distinct shifts in character evident in the text - that's the only reason that I didn't think that "hypthetical authors" is redundant. In any case, RK's revision is a more accurate description of what the hypothesis is, in my opinion. — Mkmcconn

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I think the section on the Biblical creation story (specifically, E's) needs work although I am not sure how to proceed. My issue is that the Hebrew text ought not to be translated as "In the beginning;" I am not sure but I think Rashi (or a modern critic) has addressed this. One can read it as something like, "When God began to create the heaven and earth, all was mixed up" or something like that. The point is, this text may not be describing the creation of the universe out of nothing. As the more recent revisions of the article make clear, this account of "the creation" is more the imposition of order on chaos.

I call attention to this because I think most "creation myths" are not actually concerned with explaining where the cosmos comes from; they take some sort of physical universe for granted, but do try to explain how the current order of things came about. Slrubenstein

Even many who believe that God did create from out of nothing, do not necessarily base this belief on Genesis 1. It comes from other Biblical places, more explicitly. The little bit of Hebrew that I know would certainly support the translation that you mention up to the part about "all mixed up", which is more of a paraphrase. Jacob also somewhere called "tohu va bohu", the same phrase - not just "all mixed up", but amounting to nothing, devoid of potential, like a desert: and out of him God made a people for himself, full of promise. The same idea is here, in Genesis 1. In the opinion of many scholars, conservative as well as liberal, Genesis is not directly concerned with the origin of mere matter. The narrative opens on a desolate scene, not a nothing. — Mkmcconn

Let's look at the text itself: (sorry, not all browsers will show it)

בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ

והארץ היתה תהו ובהו וחשך על פני תהום ורוח אלהים מרחפת על פני המים

The first word simply means "in beginning" as in first things.

The second word is in the third person masculine singular of the perfective binyan which generally refers to completed action. If the author wished to indicate a continuing action, as in "began to create", he would have used the imperfective binyan.

The third word is "God" in the plural.

The rest of the words are "the heavens and the earth" using accusative markers.

The first word of the second line is the noun "earth" with waw and heh prefixes giving the total meaning "and the earth".

The second word is a verb in the third person feminine singular of the perfective binyan indicating that "earth", a feminine noun, is the subject thereof. It is often translated as "is" though it was an active existance, sometimes better translated as "become".

If you want to watch an argument, ask what the next two words mean in a room full of Hebrew scholars of varying ideologies. Those who espouse the documentary hypothesis tend to insist that they mean "chaos and confusion" or something similar. Those who accept the historic understanding of the Bible tend to say they mean "lifeless and still (as in quiet, unmoving)" though there are crossovers from both camps (don't ask how I discovered this). (Neither of these words are used in connection with Jacob).

Do we need to analyse the rest of the sentence?

From a linguistic analysis, "When God began to create the heaven and earth, all was mixed up" is undefendable, rather the literal translation says, "In (the) beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth became (came into being) lifeless and still, ..." (Yes, I disagree with the documentary hypothese on many grounds.)

Another issue, there was an ancient literary style that put the title of a document or section at the end thereof, not the beginning. The title of the first account in creation in Genesis is chapter 2 verse 4 and the beginning of the second Genesis 2:5.

Melamed 22:37, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Your sentence, "In the opinion of many scholars, conservative as well as liberal, Genesis is not directly concerned with the origin of mere matter," very precisely describes what it is I think the article should make clear. Also, (obviously, when discussing the Bible) it is important to distinguish between the meaning the text had to those who first wrote and read it (to the best of our knowledge), and the meaning of the text to current readers. My point was not that many people today "wrongly" use the Bible as a creation myth to explain the origins of "mere matter." My point was that however the text is used today, thee are other meanings in it that should be made clear. I.E. the same text may have been used by people today and people 3,000 years ago, but that does not mean they had the same creation myth. Slrubenstein

I'll go ahead and try to figure a place to put that sentence, then. As for the other issue, I think that it's best not to make vague allusions to meta-meanings (not saying that's what you suggested). But if an example of how time and circumstance alter perceptions of meaning can be made to fit the scope of the article, that would be useful, I think. — Mkmcconn

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This article is currently highly skewed towards the Jewish and Christian craetion myths. The amount of text devoted towards Genesis in comparison to other creation myths is quite significant. soulpatch

I agree; and I think that the best solution to that problem is to expand the other creation stories. — Mkmcconn

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The term creation myth is used, generally disparagingly, for a story with deep explanatory or symbolic resonance... Why disparagingly? What's disparaging about 'creation myth'? People spend their whole careers studying them. Wetman 01:53, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It implies that they are not true, which disparages those who believe them. Anthony DiPierro 02:22, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I don't like that sentence ... I think that a lot of people use "myth" to refer to any belief of that particular sort, true or false. Besides, it's not quite disparaging to claim that some one believes something false. Could it be rephrased to "often implying that the beliefs are false" or something? Paullusmagnus 15:31, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I myself don't consider the term "myth" to be disparaging. For mythologists, the essence of myth, what makes a story a myth, is not whether it has a factual basis in history or not. Rather it is a matter of how much meaning the story has for a given culture, whether in terms of explaining how or why some aspect of the world or the universe got to be the way it is, or in terms of describing an archtype for things or people that we encounter in life that one might (or might not) emulate, etc. In this sense, the term is simply descriptive, and not disparaging.

But that is just one meaning of "myth", and as far as I know its use in that sense tends to be limited to mythologists. In more popular usage the term "myth" is more commonly used to mean a "false belief" or something along those lines. In this sense the term probably is more or less disparaging, as when someone says "That's just a myth."

I think the article tries to make this distinction, but apparently it is not quite succeding? Or perhaps the "disparaging" phrase should be stripped out of that sentence and placed in proper context elsewhere in the article? Grizzly 22:27, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I tried expanding it a bit, but I could use some help with my wording. Anthony DiPierro 22:47, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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The section on Muslim creation story seems to be self-contradictory: Is there one or more myths? What was man made from?

Time in the creation stories

This section includes the following, the red part of which has just been added.

Some believe that the six day period refers to the time spent by light traveling from the center of the universe at the time and point of creation. It is worthwhile to note that modern cosmology does not allow for any "center of the universe" to exist, every point being equivalent to any other one. In the Big Bang theory, the universe was but a point at the time of its creation, and it has no boundary.

I don't believe that it is appropriate to argue against the views being described, but I'll agree that the original sentence was not adequate. I am not familiar with the view being described. Does it, for example, include the belief that the universe has a centre? If so, then this should be noted and the red sentences removed.
Philip J. Rayment 23:29, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Incorrect statement

Limited to the scientific method, science cannot deal with non-repeatable events such as specific events in the past. However, science can be used to study the remains of these events and interpret them according to observed patterns. The whole universe is the remains of past events, so when one assumes philosophical naturalism it is believed that an extrapolation from present, observed patterns can give an accurate picture of the past. Not everyone believes in philosophical naturalism, not even all scientists, but there are certain beliefs of creation which are based on science.

This is an incorrect statement. Science can perfectly well "deal" with non-repeatable events. It is a misnomer to say otherwise. While we cannot "repeat" non-repeatable events, repeatability is not really a part of the scientific method. It is only a criteria for a legitimate experiment. It is not a criteria for any given observation. Therefore I am reinstating my edit. Joshuaschroeder 18:24, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

i reworded it to allow for "dealing with" but still provide that it cannot "definitively describe." incidentally, you might want to reconsider your use of the word misnomer[1] (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=misnomer). Ungtss 21:28, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Science doesn't "definitely describe" anything. This is an unacceptable compromise. Joshuaschroeder 23:30, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

deletion is unacceptable, and not even an EFFORT at compromise, grand inquisitor. much as you'd like to think so, you're not the only editor on the wiki. don't waste my time. your explicit goal is to take a JPOV/SPOV approach here. it's not gonna work. i'm gonna try again. you're gonna work with me. i suppose bullying works in your neighborhood, but not in mine. Ungtss 03:13, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've added my attempt at clarifying the issues in that section - hopefully it adds more light than darkness to the debate. Feel free to flame me if you disagree :) -- FirstPrinciples 05:46, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)

I think this edit is fine. Joshuaschroeder 05:47, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

i tried to nuance it a bit ... thanks for stepping in, firstprinciples ... sorry for the flame ... joshua has a remarkable ability to piss me off. Ungtss 14:48, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Reworded things

I have tried to remove the blatantly incorrect statements involving "science-based beliefs", "scientific 'creation ex nihilo'", natural causes, and limits to ontology. Please make comments on these edits here. Joshuaschroeder 16:55, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

i'm sure it would be convenient for you to massive edits and then put the burden on those who wanted it the way it was before, but that's just another one of your pleasant imaginings. the rest of us will continue to edit the page, and YOU will make comments to OUR edits here, rather than mindlessly reverting. Ungtss 17:14, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This is what you reincluded: It should be pointed out that these science based beliefs are not ex nihilo beliefs, that is they do not start from nothing. They do not account for where the mass and energy of the universe came from, or for how life first began. In this respect they are like most creation beliefs, but notably unlike the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic beliefs, among others. The origin of life has many competing science based theories and the ultimate origin of the universe is widely believed to be a topic beyond scientific inquiry.

Here's why I changed it to this: It should be pointed out that the above scientific theories are not ex nihilo beliefs, that is they do not start from nothing. In this respect they are unlike the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic beliefs, or even so-called "science-based" speculations that proport to explain an ultimate cause.

The fact is that there are science-based beliefs which DO account for where the mass and the energy of the universe come from. Take for example the time-loop speculation of Gott or the eternal inflation model of Linde. Both of these give internally consistent explanations for the energy-density of the universe that do not rely on any preconditions. There are a whole slew of others too that work from this fashion and, unless you want this to become a speculative physics article, my edit points out better the on-topic fact that they are not ex nihilo beliefs. What's more, many creation beliefs DO account for where the mass and energy of the universe came from --> they came from the God or Gods or first cause. We already mention above about the origin of life having many competing theories. As to the origin of the universe being "widely believed" to be a topic beyond scientific inquiry, this isn't true either. Right now, we don't have a consistent model for the extremely early universe (and in that sense, its origins) but that doesn't mean it's widely believed that it is a topic beyond scientific inquiry. I'm changing back to my edit. Joshuaschroeder 17:26, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Joshuaschroeder made major improvements to this page, and any attempt by Ungtss to revert to the old POV version should be considered vandalism. Bensaccount 17:49, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

you tell 'em ben! they'll listen to you! don't forget to tell 'em that the middle east is in the southern US, and that relationship and similarity are synonyms!!! Ungtss 18:00, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Explanation of deleted section

Here is the section that was removed: Creation beliefs based on philosophical naturalism Scientists have asserted that the creation both of the universe and of life came about through purely natural causes. This requires a defacto belief that millions of statistically improbable events occurred in rapid succession. Those holding this opinion offer evidence that the cosmos developed on its own in accordance with the laws of physics, through an evolutionary process, and suggest that since science is believed to be successful in explaining things at ever more distant times in the past, the prospects for continued success are good. One potential problem with this view is that it seems to involve a scientifically impermissible extrapolation beyond the beginning of time. Some (notably Augustine of Hippo) also hold that God is altogether outside of time and that time exists only within the created universe. This notion is not entirely impossible. The Big Bang is seen by most as the beginning of the universe as we see it now, but for science, it is the beginning of time and space as we see it now. The formation of everything in the universe may have started then, but it was more a likely a series of side-effects of the Big Bang. This is why it is impermissible to go beyond the beginning of time, since there would not have been time (or space) to go to before the Big Bang, unless it was preceded by the Big Crunch. Also, the whole concept of time itself is still barely understood.

First of all, the first sentence is reincluded in science-based beliefs above.

The second sentence is a matter of creationist POV. There isn't a belief that "millions of statistically improbable events occurred in rapid succssion". I'm not even going to entertain that as a reasonable sentence. If you want to talk about probabilities, put it in a new section, but that fly-by-night jab won't cut it.

if i create such a section, will you mangle it? Ungtss 17:45, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Being that I've never intentionally mangled anything, I can tell you with utmost sincerity that I will not intentionally mangle it. I will edit it if I see errors.

However, I'm not sure that this is the correct page to place such a section. It's probably better suited to intelligent design or fine tuning. Joshuaschroeder 18:29, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The next sentence has been reworked and reincluded in the section on science-based beliefs.

The next sentence is dealt with elsewhere in the article where the discussion of Planck time occurs.

THe next sentence is kept in religious based beliefs.

The next two sentences are interesting, and can be included but they really are a strange justification of St. Augustine to use the Big Bang. Nevertheless, if someone wants to include them in the religious based beliefs, I won't object.

The last two sentences are incorrect from a physics sense. First of all, "before the Big Bang" is an ill-defined term as discussed in the section on the Planck time. More than that, the oscillatory universe isn't the only way to get past the fiducial singularity at the beginning of the universe. Secondly, time is fairly well-undestood from a physics standpoint. Especially with regards to general relativity. I included the following sentence in the science-based beliefs that covers the topic neutrally, I feel: The ultimate origin of the preconditions for the universe is currently subject of speculation, and some believe it is ultimately beyond scientific inquiry.

That is why the section was removed. Joshuaschroeder 17:36, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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in an effort to begin getting this piece in shape, i'm separated science from philsophical naturalism -- beliefs based on philosophical naturalism should be named and listed separately, especially since their "scientific" status is contested by a large contingent who reject their philosophical assumptions. Ungtss 17:45, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Chistian God as "both cause and effect"?

I deleted this sentence. It was flippant, speculative, and probably blasphemous to most of Christianity. NathanZook 01:30, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Page name

This page includes beliefs not only about creation but also about other origins, so it would be better titled origin belief. Either that or limit it only to those beliefs involving creation. Bensaccount 16:49, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Since you've renamed the page, could you please immediately fix the large number of old links and double redirects so they link directly to it. -- FP 03:58, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sure the "Origins beliefs" is an ideal page name; it seems clumsy. Any other opinions? -- FP 06:35, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Apparently, the article creation linked here. It needs its own article (I will move some of the content of this page there). Bensaccount 15:42, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Origin vs Origins

Since JOke137 just changed all mentions of Origin to Origins, thought we should get on the same page. Is it origin? As in, the origin of species, the origin of life. Or is it origins, as in differing theories of origins. Writing this, it seems silly, of course it's origin. But I'd like consensus. -- Ec5618 22:14, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

In general, as described by, for example, NASA, it is correctly considered to be "origins" since there are a variety of origins for the phenomena we're interested in (the universe, life, humanity, etc.) Joshuaschroeder 22:16, 16 May 2005 (UTC)