Talk:Consequentialism
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Your account of consequentialism seems a little unusual. For starters, I don't think egoism is normally considered to be a kind of consquentialism. For example, in Consequentialism and its critics, the editor Samuel Scheffler starts off by saying that
- Consequentialism in its purest and simplest form is a moral doctrine which says that the right act in any given situation is the one that will produce the best overall outcome, as judged from an impersonal standpoint which gives equal weight to the interests of everyone. Somewhat more precisely, we may think of a consequentialist theory of this kind as coming in two parts. First, it gives some principle for ranking overall states of affairs from an impersonal standpoint and then it says that the right act in any given situation is the one that will produce the highest ranked state of affairs that the agent is in a position to produce. (emphasis added).
There may be a few people who talk differently, but this certainly appears to be the standard conception of consequentialism (the less "pure" forms alluded to presumably being indirect forms of consequentialism, or views where the welfare of some individuals (but still individuals impersonally considered) are considered to be more important (as in, for example, the kind of consequentialism David Brink presents in "The Separateness of Persons, Distributive Norms, and Moral Theory").
I think the same problem arises in your blurring of the distinction between consequentialist theories and deontological, or, more generally and simply, non-consequentialist theories. It has in fact been argued, by David Cummiskey in Kantian consquentialism, that although Kant was firmly against consequentialism, Kantian moral theory, "properly understood, generates an extremely compelling consequentialist normative theory". However, I believe this is a very unusual position to take, and even if it makes sense, there is still a sensible class of positions to put up against consequentialist positions.
This class of positions is characterized by the idea that there are agent-relative or agent-centered reasons for action, whereas for consquentialism, as defined above, reasons for action are ultimately agent-neutral. Then egoism and deontology are seen as characteristically non-consequentialist.
These days it has become standard to distinguish between agent-centered restrictions and agent-centered prerogatives. I am tempted to agree, with Scheffler, that ultimately, agent-centered restrictions are difficult to defend. As you suggest against Kant, why should I not kill one innocent person if, by doing so, I can save the lives of many more innoncent persons in exactly the same objective circumstances? On the other hand, agent-centered prerogatives seem much easier to defend, on the familiar grounds that consequentialist theories are morally too demanding. Given the protean nature of indirect consequentialism, however, the field is very murky. --CalvinOstrum
I think it's common enough to regard EgoIsm as a variety of consequentialism. Just as data points, see this article (http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/c/conseque.htm) and this one (http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/users/vaughan/text/lex/defs/consequentialism.html). This is how I've been taught the notion and how I taught it (as a T.A.) to Ohio State undergrads. But, granted, it does sound a little bit strange. I would add some sort of note, at the very least, that not everyone would consider EthicalEgoism a variety of consequentialism. -- Larry Sanger
Hmm, those two citations are of very poor quality. In looking at standard collections of recent higher-quality essays from the research literature, such as those contained in the aforementioned Consequentialism and its critics, or Philip Pettit's 1993 edited volume of 26 papers, it seems to me that all of them either implicitly or explicitly assume that consequentialism ultimately countenances only agent-neutral reasons. I think the issue of agent-neutral versus agent-relative reasons is the crucial issue here, in any case. I think WillWilkinson is right about this, and I think the community of moral philosophers essentially agree. Consequently, I would submit that the term "consequentialism" should only be used to refer to theories which say that ultimately only agent-neutral reasons are of import. Consequentialism should be the view that only consequences matter. Consequences, period, not consequences for me when I act, or you when you act. -- CalvinOstrum
I'm very suspicious of any claim to the effect that words, particularly jargon, ought to mean anything; either they do or they don't. If, as I think is clearly the case, there is some reasonably large portion of philosophers who use "consequentialism" to mean a broader concept than that meant by your sources, then the word is, as a matter of fact, whether you like it or not, ambiguous. And the article should reflect that fact. (While perhaps also acknowledging some popular distaste for one of the uses of the term.) Besides, some word is needed, after all, for the concept that actions are to be evaluated based on their consequences, whether for everyone or for the agent only. Utilitarianism and egoism have something in common that deontological theories don't have. That's why "consequentialism" is sometimes used in this broader way. -- Larry Sanger
Suit yourself. I don't expect much in an "encylopedia" run by Objectivists! -- CalvinOstrum
Just for the record, I don't regard myself as an Objectivist, and I will do my best not to let it be overrun by them. :-) Not that I have any serious beefs with Objectivists. This wiki will become whatever its participants make it. -- Larry Sanger
You are at least a Fellow Traveller, as WillWilkinson seems also to be. -- CalvinOstrum
Maybe--but officially, I hold no views. ;-) -- Larry Sanger
Well, I'd perhaps count myself a quasi-post-neo-Objectivist ;-). But that's neither here nor there. I certainly think that we can argue things on their merits. Now, it would be nice if there were a nice piece on the agent neutral/agent relative distinction (is there?). But that's certainly a different distinction from the consequentialist/non-consequentialist distinction. The article could certainly be clearer about what non-conseqeuntialist theories are after: that what matters in right action is one's motive, or the principle upon which one acts. I was brought up to use 'consequentialism' the way I did, and the way Larry was. I do think this is common parlance. As I mention, and as you show with the Scheffler quote, consequentialism is often used sloppily as short hand for Utilitarianism -- collectivist, agent-neutral consequentialism. But imprecise usage doesn't set the standard. -- WillWilkinson
I hate to drag this one back up, but I think this page still needs a lot of work. Surely what is (a) the defining feature of consequentialism, and (b) entirely absent on this page, is the fact that consequentialist theories take "The Good" to be prior to "The Right", whereas deontological theories take them in the reverse order. A consequentialist theory is one which weighs up the results of every possible action someone can take, and the right action is the one which makes for the "best" results, where best is the maximisation of some Good or goods. Obviously what those are is up for discussion, but I don't think it discounts agent-relative concerns, even thought its not been a common position to hold. Egoism, however, does seem to be one such theory in which the good is always relative to oneself.
I may correct the page sometime, but since I'm new it would be nice to have comments / criticisms of my previous paragraph, before I get abuse for messing it up! - Alex (23/11/04: 14:20)
Consequences for whom
I made some changes to this section to correct a few problems. First, I wanted to remove any appearance of a false dilemma between considering individual and group interests. Any form of consequentialism that completely ignores one or the other is going to self-destruct quite quickly. This is, in fact, a problem for "fitnessism", which gets way too much space for something that deserves, at most, a brief link. That's why I condensed that part of the entry. Also, I almost dropped the word "collectivist", because it's so obviously Randist, but it's not technically wrong or desperately misleading, so I left it alone.
--Alienus 20:45, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
more talk
This definition of consequentialism is shaky.
How about:
"Consequentialism is the doctrine that says that the right thing to do is whatever will produce the the most intrinsic good."
I was taught this by N. Sturgeon at Cornell, and I like it's robustness. For example, since it seems to be agreed that utilitarianism is a derivative of consequentialism, perhaps a utilitarian corrollary therefore could be:
"The only thing that is intrinsically good is happiness." Ergo, a utilitarian could define his doctrine as "The right to do is always to produce as much happiness as possible."
I believe that those are the definintions given by J.S. Mill and H. Sidgwick.
In the discussion of for whom conseqentialism should benefit, it should be noted that the philosophy of consequentialism does not give special weight to any individual in particular, including the first person.
There should also be a discussion of how consequentialism is not really a normative doctrine: nothing is absolutely right or wrong, it all depends on the consequences.