Talk:Change ringing

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"ringers (not to be confused with bird ringers)".

Ok I am confused, what are bell ringers? Mintguy 11:31 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ah.. I just noticed that it says bird ringers and not bell ringers. I saw what I wanted to see. I don't think anyone would have confused ringers with bird ringers, why was it there? Mintguy 11:33 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It looks like this article was written by a change-ringer. Congrats! (I wish there was more changing-ringing going on in the US.) There is also, however, carillon-style bellringing, which is more common in the US and in continental Europe. This article ought to be reworked to reflect that it is change-ringing that is being discussed, especially in the history section. (Also, the playing of handbells can be considered bell-ringing.) I'm not sure what is up with he redirect from "change ringing" to "bellringing". (Is this an American vs. British usage thing, or a carillonneur vs. change-ringer usage thing, or just plain old confusion, perhaps on my part?) Aranel 19:03, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. In fact I think I will move it... anyone want to write something on the other ways of ringing a bell??Iainscott 13:57, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Calling down? 2 "mathematically proven" 3 Third question 4 Trimmed some details from bell ringing mechanics 5 Mechanics of church bellringing 5.1 Handbells 6 Bellringing vs. bell ringing and change-ringing vs. change ringing 7 Categorization

Calling down?

Hi! I got here from Peer review, where you ask for "anyone who isnt a bellringer". That's me! I've made a few minor changes, and I have a question. The article says:

For example, if the bells start in the order 123456 and the conductor calls "3 to 4" the resulting order of the bells is 124356. This, the accepted way of calling in Devon and many towers elsewhere, is known as calling up as the bell corresponding to the number called first moves up behind the second bell. Call changes can also be called by calling down: in the example above the call would become "4 to 2" for the same result.

Shouldn't the "calling down" version be simply "4 to 3", i.e. bell 4 moves to position 3? If not, something needs to be explained better.

I'll be back with more questions later! Dbenbenn 02:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The call "x to y" is shorthand for "bell number x ring after bell number y". I can see how the example confuses "bell number n" (which basically stays the same) and the "bell in the nth position" (which changes everytime the order of the bells change...) I have returned the example to the version by 144.173.231.8 as I cant remember why I changed it! I hope the example and further explanation is clearer... Many thanks! Iain 11:43, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Okay, the "calling up" is clearer (thanks!) but I still don't get "calling down". The article says

For example, if the bells start in the order 135246 and the conductor calls "5 to 2" (which is shorthand for "bell number 5 ring after bell number 2") the resulting order of the bells is 132546. Call changes can also be called by calling down: in the example above the call would become "5 to 3" for the same result.

Wouldn't "5 to 3" mean "bell 5 goes before bell 3", i.e. it becomes 153246? Dbenbenn 20:25, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Note to self: when giveing an example, at least try to give an acurate example! It should read: "2 to 3" for the same result.

Again, the call is a shorthand for "bell number 2 ring after bell number 3". Iain 22:52, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"mathematically proven"

Okay, here's my second question. What do you mean by:

Thus a "full extent" of any of the traditional methods has been mathematically proven to begin at rounds, move off through the various permutations visiting every one once and only once, and finally return safely home again to rounds — all with only neighbor-swaps from row to row.

As a mathematician, I know that sentence isn't accurate. But I can't fix it because I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean. Can you explain it better? And do you have a reference to a proof of something? Dbenbenn 01:08, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm not a change ringer myself; but since I wrote that sentence I'll explain my understanding. Mathematicians and changer ringers alike please correct me if I'm wrong!

Here's the point: imagine that I've just come up with some algorithm which is supposed to allow you to ring a full extent. Now you could just jump in and try to use it; but then somebody would have to stand there with a big checklist to make sure that our algorithm hits every permutation once and only once. (The former condition makes it an "extent"; the latter is necessary for "trueness.") This would be tedious in the extreme; instead you would be wise to check my algorithm on theoretical grounds (using group theory and so forth) to make sure that it does what it promises; your analysis will take the form of a mathematical proof. Doops 06:44, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Though (usually) it is the "composition" (the list of alterations the method which the conduter will call while ringing it) which is proven to be true (the simplest, if crude, way is to set your computer to working out all the changes which will be generated by a particular method and composition and checking them against each other. Other, more elegant, techniques are available and various short cuts can be often be made which depened upon the group-theoretic propeties of the particular method in question). Iain 11:02, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Right. As I understand it, the various methods have a basic algorithm which is good for a few dozen changes at most, returning rather quickly to rounds. All longer touches, peals, and extents based on that method are compositions, incorporating periodic hiccoughs to avoid returning home prematurely. Doops 17:08, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps the sentence in question means:

It has been mathematically proven that you can ring a true extent, beginning and ending with rounds, with a bell never moving more than one position in a change.

This sounds like a non-obvious fact, but it needs a reference. I removed the sentence. (For what it's worth, it can be restated in terms of the existence of a Hamiltonian cycle in a certain Cayley graph for the permutation group.)

Or, you could talk about the correctness-proofs of particular algorithms, such as plain hunt. Dbenbenn 18:26, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Third question

I don't really understand what this means:

Due to the number of competitions, ringing by bands from Devon's more succesful towers is reckoned to have some of the best striking in the country.

Dbenbenn 18:43, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Trimmed some details from bell ringing mechanics

After reading the peer review request, I've gone ahead and boldly trimmed some details from the bell ringing mechanics section. IMHO, the article is not primarily about ringing bells, but about ringing them in a certain way (i.e. change ringing). Hence, the reader shouldn't need to plough through a lot of "unnecessary" details before he gets to the "meat" of the article. The rest of the article reads just fine, even for a non-ringer like me. I actually learned a lot from it! --Plek 15:07, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Here's the text from the original section:

Mechanics of church bellringing

A bell tower in which bellringing takes place can contain up to sixteen bells, but six or eight bells are a more common number for the average church. The bell highest in pitch is known as the treble, and the bell lowest in pitch is called the tenor. For convenience, the bells are numbered with the treble being number 1, and the other bells numbered by their pitch 2,3,4, etc. sequentially down the scale. The bells are usually tuned to a diatonic major scale, with the tenor bell being the tonic (or key) note of the scale.

The bellringers typically stand in a circle around the ringing room, each managing the rope for his or her bell above. The end of the rope is called the tail and by tucking back the tail on itself the rope can be adjusted for ringers of different heights. A little further along, approximately at the ringer's shoulder-level, is a hand-hold called a sally comprising coloured woollen tufting incorporated between the strands of the rope during manufacture. The rope passes through a hole in the ceiling up into the space (the bell-chamber) that contains the bells themselves. Each bell is suspended from a headstock, allowing it to rotate through just over 360 degrees; the headstock is fitted with a wooden wheel around which the rope is wrapped; during a session of ringing the bell sits poised upside-down while it awaits its turn to ring. By pulling the rope, the ringer upsets the balance; the bell swings down then back up again on the other side, describing a 360-degree circle. During the swing, the clapper inside the bell will have struck the soundbow, making the bell resonate exactly once. The ringer can control how quickly the bell sounds again by allowing the bell to pause in the mouth upwards position (thus postponing the sound) or conversely by prematurely ending its swing, tugging the bell back again before it has come to rest at the top of its wheel (thus sounding the bell earlier). If the bells are left in the mouth-upward position between performances, ringing can be resumed at any time; but for safety, at the end of a day's session the bells are usually "rung down" — by gradually dampening their motion, they come to rest for the night at the bottom of their cycle, mouth-down. Before the ringers can perform again on another day, the bells will have to be rung up again — by tugging on the rope, the ringers will set them swinging, gradually adding potential energy by pulling at just the right time, until once again the bell is poised upside-down.

Although ringing certainly involves some physical exertion, the successful ringer is one with practised skill rather than mere brute force; after all, even small bells are typically much heavier than the people ringing them, and can only be rung at all because they are well-blanced in their frames. The heaviest bell hung for full-circle ringing is contained in Liverpool Cathedral and weighs over four tonnes. Despite this colossal weight, it can be safely rung by one (experienced) ringer. (While heavier bells exist (for example Big Ben) they are generally only chimed, either by swinging the bell slightly or using mechanical hammers.)

Handbells

Change ringing can also be carried out on handbells (small bells, generally weighing only a few hundred grams). These are held in one hand by a handle attached to the crown of the bell and sounded by moving the entire bell, usually by a flick of the wrist. Many groups of tower bell-ringers use handbells to practice (in which case, just as in the tower, one ringer handles one bell). Some bell-ringers pursue handbell ringing as an endeavour in its own right, in which case each ringer often handles two bells.

Bellringing vs. bell ringing and change-ringing vs. change ringing

One other thing: I noticed that the terms "bellringing", "bell ringing", "change-ringing" and "change ringing" are all being used in the article. I'm not a native English speaker myself, but wouldn't the proper way of writing these be: "bell ringing" and "change ringing" (as well as "bell ringers" instead of "bellringers")? --Plek 15:18, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Categorization

What is a good category for this article? Oleg Alexandrov 20:01, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)