Talk:Capoeira
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In the last edit, is that your writing or was it copied from a book? Do you have a source for your date of 1520? or for the fighting slave story? -Tom Cerul
As for the fighting-slave story, it is a popular story in Brazil and widely believed to be true; it is certainly attestable by colonial documents that Capoeira arose in slave circles. However, the 1520 date is likely wrong as the Portuguese only began colonization of its American possessions in 1530! Certainly any sort of European presence before then would be at most an outpost or two to resupply the India-bound fleets, and no slaves at all.
Perhaps the correct date would be closer to 1620, but then again, I have never read anything of the kind. Personally, I believe one cannot pinpoint with precision the beginning of the art, as there is no single inventor figure of capoeira as there is for, say, kung fu. -Wtrmute
Feel free to make changes to that date. I too, thought it was strange, but left it out of respect for the previous contributor as I could find no other date I preferred. I don't know what kind of source material they were using. -Thomas
For what is worth, the historian Thomas Skidmore says that the first slaves were brought to Brazil in 1549. The book "A Arte da Gramática de língua mais usada na Costa do Brasil," edited in 1595 by Padre Anchieta, mentions that the Tupi-Guarani played Capoeira. --Mancoduco
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Historical Footnote: 1937
1937 - The year Capoeira Regional started it's process of mainstream acceptance, was also the eventful time of the Estado Novo (New State) in Brazil. The president of the day was one Getúlio Dorneles Vargas. Interesting to study the circumstances and the chaotic socio-political climate of Brazil which lead to the development of Capoeira Regional. In a sense, Capoeira really was born out of a contstantly evolving cycle of struggle and endurance, from the time it was practiced during the slave period through to the time of revolution in Brazil.
Tartaruga 08:09, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Schools
I placed http://www.berimbau.nl in the European schools section, because its website showed classes only in the Netherlands. I also changed the School heading of "Americas" to "United States," as the only schools listed are in the United States, and none in the rest of the Americas (and, indeed, "The Americas" almost always refers to Central and South America, not including the US). If you wanted this section to be titles "Americas" in case people want to put South American schools, that's fine, but I would recommend having those in a seperate section, titled "The Americas" and leave the US classes in their own group.
But I also have a question: how much of a comprehensive list do you want this to be? There are literally thousands of capoeira school across the world, and it seems pointless to list a random twenty of them. There are several sites that are databases of capoeira schools, however. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to simply link to them? I can give you links to such databases if you want.
--Asbestos 23:25, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I don't know about removing the school list... I know several people, myself included, who found their current school via the wikipedia. Some schools listed here are not in the major school directories yet. Maybe we should have a separate directory page for Capoeira schools? or would that be un-wikipedic? (We have a list of online book retailers...)
We should list the capoeira school directories, but i also feel wikipedia should have a wiki maintained directory too. Just my 2 cents. Having a directory of Capoeira schools on wikipedia means we gotta keep tabs that the links aren't dead or the links aren't just placeholders. (There were a lot of those type of sites in this article, which I've weeded out in my last edit).
Tartaruga 08:07, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Music
I added a section on the ladainhas, chulas and crridos. Let me know what you think. -Asbestos 26 Oct 04
I'm going to create a page on Capoeira music, with the words to many ladainhas, chulas and corridos. Wikipedia has a policy against song lyrics, but I believe that this only applies to comercial songs (especially as they do have the words to national anthems and hymns). Let me know if you think that this is a good idea, and please feel free to contribute.
New Page: Capoeira songs
--Asbestos 11:53, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Schools
Please refrain from listing sites under-construction (or worse, 404 pages) in the school list. These will be removed promptly.
Tartaruga 09:37, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think that this list of schools is getting out of control. There are now over 80 links to individual schools, and Wikipedia articles are not supposed to be collections of links, especially not something like this where the list could easily top a couple hundred if we allowed it to. I suggest we try to limit ourselves to 4-5 informational links only, and abolish all links to individual schools. Those can be easily found elsewhere on the web. I'd suggest limiting our links to something like www.capoeira.com (http://www.capoeira.com/planetcapoeira/), www.capoeira-angola.org, www.capoeira4all.com and the school databases at www.beribazu.co.uk schools (http://www.beribazu.co.uk/knowledge.php?p=capoeira_schools) and www.capoeirista.com schools (http://www.capoeirista.com/schools.html). — Asbestos | Talk 13:25, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I haven't deleted them yet, because I remember Tartaruga objecting before, so wouldn't want to do it behind his back. I still strongly feel, however, that the un-wieldy list of links isn't suitable for the article, especially as there is no real way of preventing it getting ever longer: do we say some schools are allowed to be listed and others not? The school seach directories I listed, and I'm sure there are others, contain very comprehensive lists with far more schools than the 80+ we have here. — Asbestos | Talk 21:37, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I'm all for doing it this way. Thanks for considering my earlier opinion though. But I agree that this way is a lot better (and true to the wiki spirit) than the list-o-links that was happening. Schools who wanna get noticed are better off getting listed on DMOZ (http://dmoz.org/Sports/Martial_Arts/Capoeira/Schools_and_Instruction/). — Tartaruga 05:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Breakdancing
Breakdancing - Removed the part about Capoeira being influenced by breakdancing because Capoeira is a self-sustaining entity that is based in tradition and culture. As it has gone to other countries each group maintains the cultural brazilian influence and is constantly interacting with other Capoeira groups when there are roda's, batizado's and other miscellaneous events. If Capoeira were to be influenced by breakdancing the entire movement from Brazil to the U.S. would have to completely embrace the concept and that is not happening. -Grundle
- Clearly capoeira is self sustaining, but one can't deny that it has evolved in the last forty or fifty years. If you watch old videos of capoeira, you see very little of the flashy moves and tricks of today, especially moves such as corta capim (spinning one leg underneath you while crouching). Many of the older mestres also disapprove of the stunts that have emerged. Capoeira is very adaptable to change — note how Bimba changed the traditional form of capoeira into Capoeira Regional. Clearly modern capoeira, especially Regional, has the potential to be influenced both by Asian martial arts and by breakdancing. — Asbestos | Talk 13:48, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Specifically referencing your example of corta capim, even though it's know as a breakdancing movement in the US, it's actually an old capoeira movement, practiced by old mestres in Bahia. I think this shows the problem with assuming the origins of movements. — spyrral | Talk 13:48, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I won't dispute the fact that capoeira is constantly evolving. I think that it is very possible that many movements have been taken from Asian martial arts, but I would be hesitant to say that Capoeira has been significantly influenced by breakdance. I also agree with you that the game is not the same today as it was 50 years ago. I think we need to take a look at where these changes are coming from. The large majority come from Mestres who have started their own groups and have infused their own philosophy and outlook on Capoeira into their own group. The most signifcant example I can give you is Mestre Suassuna's group Cordao de Ouro. In this group Suassuna introduced a new "game" called Miudinho where the capoeirstas play closer together and yet do both regional and angola movements. As far as style goes, it looks very similar to breakdancing but it actually came out of Brazil and is completely unique from breakdance since Suassuna was developing and using it when breakdance was still in its infancy. Check out [1] (http://www.capoeirapraha.cz/video/corda3.avi) for an example. — Grundle 20:55, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well I won't push the point to have it mentioned in the introduction. However, I think a line or two somewhere that capoeira is constantly evolving, and that it can be influenced by external sources such as Asian martial arts, would be in order in some other section. I'll add it in some time unless someone else want to. — Asbestos | Talk 21:30, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Game?
Is it really correct to call capoeira a game? It is a martial art, and you wouldn't call karate or jujitsu a game. I think "game" implies a lack of seriousness, and i know that capoeiristas take it very seriously, especially since it was a matter of life and death historically. We should consider changing "game" to "form" or some similar word. --Bonus Onus 00:41, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
- I would say unequivocally that capoeira is a game. It is also a martial art, and also, in some manner, a dance. The three are not mutually exclusive.
- Capoeira in Brazil is usually called the "jogo de capoeira", or just "jogo": the game. People play capoeira, and people are complemented on for the beauty of their game. These terms do not diminish capoeira, nor imply a lack of seriousness.
- However, as you raise a valid question, here are some references:
- "In capoeira, you always say what you're doing is a game. Even though it's a martial art you never say you're fighting - you're never fighting because it is not a fight, it's a game." Says Mestre João Grande (http://www.nea.gov/honors/heritage/Heritage01/Grande2.html).
- "A capoeira game is characterized by such dynamic movements as cartwheels, handstands and spontaneous acrobatics.... The object of the game is for the capoeiristas to use finesse, guile, and technique... Music is used to calm them down when the game has become too heated.". www.capoeira-angola.org (http://www.capoeira-angola.org/what_is_capoeira.htm).
- "The Capoeira game (or jogo) is a dance and a fight." www.ultimatemartialarts.net (http://www.ultimatemartialarts.net/styles/capoeira.cfm).
- "Capoeira is more than just another martial art, as it is an art of expression, play and personal interaction... In Portuguese, the language of Brazil, Capoeira is referred to as a jogo, or a game." Planet Capoeira (http://www.capoeira.com/planetcapoeira/) (click on "What is Capoeira").
- "What is capoeira? Capoeira is a lot of things. Capoeira is a game. There is the fighting aspect, the dance, ritual and some very primitive instincts that you have that can be expressed through the game." www.capoeiragem.com (http://www.capoeiragem.com/capoeira.php).
- "What is Capoeira?? At once game, sport, mock combat, and ritualized performance ..." Jogo de Capoeira (http://jogodecapoeira.netfirms.com/)
- The title of the book Capoeira: Roots of the Dance-Fight-Game (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556434049/qid=1113488127/sr=2-5/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_5/002-0507151-9429642) by Nestor Capoeira (where he refers to it as a "game" many dozens (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1556434049/ref=sib_dp_srch_bod/002-0507151-9429642?v=search-inside&keywords=game&go.x=5&go.y=7&go=Go%21) of times).
- ... to find more, just search for Capoeira on the net. These sources were from the main capoeira websites, but almost every school that has a site refers to capoeira as a game. — Asbestos | Talk 14:22, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
ok, i see that you're right. that's plenty of proof for me. -Bonus Onus 21:10, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry — I wasn't trying to hit you over the head with evidence. It's more that it is an interesting question, and I think that a lot of Mestres feel passionately about the fact that it should be considered a game. Maybe we should add one of these quotes (like the first by João Grande) to the article. — Asbestos | Talk 13:33, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- My opinion on this matter, would be this: Chess players take their "games" very seriously too. Capoeira in the roda is a lot like chess, and I've always felt the jogo as a playful activity and have no qualms calling it a "game". It doesn't take away anything from the essence of the artform. Is capoeira serious? Deadly serious. Is it playful? Like a monkey on helium. Is it tricky? Very. My vote? Capoeira is something we play. — Tartaruga 04:58, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)