Talk:Avril Lavigne

Press accounts frequently credit her, along with singers Vanessa Carlton and Michelle Branch, with bringing a new sense of earnestness and genuine creativity to an often vacuous and pre-fabricated teen pop music market. Whilst her marketing has been every bit as sophisticated as, for instance, Britney Spears and her counterparts, a profile in the Washington Post found her to be genuine and, if anything, something of a wide-eyed innocent, citing the fact that she was intending to purchase her first Ramones CD. In another interview, she listed her current listening tastes as including Blink 182, Sum 41,

and System of a Down - more the tastes expected of a contemporary teenage music fan than an actual artist. - Is this NPOV? -- Zoe

I love her new CD because she talks about real issues like she wanted to do. I liked her other CD because it was quite the same. Well I don't think she is a poser like everyone else because me and her act the same and I am not a poser even if people say I am. So I believe her and if she wants to do this it is her own god damn business.

Contents

1 Punk or Not? 2 Avril Redirect 3 Song Title Capitalization 4 Request for page protection - Mel Etis and DrippingInk, this is for you... 5 "Take Me Away"?

Punk or Not?

Actually I have don't much against her but one big thing, I do have against her is that she is constantlysaying she is a pop punker.

Let me be the first to inform you there is no such thing as a pop punker.

You may thing bands like Sum41 has said in an interview with spin that they are not punk rock. 

She wouldn't be a posuer, if she didn't claim she was a punk rocker. She definitly proved she wasn't when in interview she had said "Forget the old stuff, the clash and the Ramones, I'm the new punk rock" and thats why many claim she is a poseur.

Granted she's doing well for an artist and should be commend for breaking out of the typical tenny bobber.

She still a liar and she in it for the money, like everyone in the pop bussiness. --Starliteentity17

Where has Avril ever said that she is punk? That is just a label that the media has created for her. Until you can site a source with a quote, I know only the opposite to be true. On an ABC Family TV Special on her, she says, "I'm not a punk rocker" and "I don't walk around calling myself punk." She goes on to explain that she is "just a rock chick" and likes to "rock out." --Nabber00 19:14, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Myah. The record company put that label on her, and the media saw that it sold, so they said she was punk all the time too. They're not too interested in writing about when Avril denies she never said she was punk either. --Joakim

Well I think that this quote sums it all doen't it? "And if she takes all this time trying to label all of her music, she probably isn't what she says she is, cause she has to prove everything through her clothes. Your personality should come from the music you create, and if you are that pathetic to keep on classifying it, might as well forget it." --Starliteentity17

Where does that quote come from? Does that mean you think she is really a punk rocker? If she "isn't what she says she is," doesn't that mean that she can't be a punk rocker according to your unsubstantiated quote? One of those two statements must be false, which is it? --Nabber00 05:01, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"I created Punk for this day and age. Do you see Britney walking around wearing ties and singing punk? Hell no. That's what I do. I'm like a Sid Vicious for a new generation." Avril Lavigne (Seventeen Magazine, 2002) This quote pretty much confirms it. --TheEye5000

That quote is made up by the record company. Avril Lavigne has never said that herself. --Joakim

"I don't think I'm punk," the Canadian phenom says during a phone interview from New York City. "It really pisses me off when I have labels placed on me like that. People are stupid for doing that, because I'm not punk. It's my pet peeve now." Boston Herald, May 21, 2004 http://theedge.bostonherald.com/musicNews/view.bg?articleid=28709&format= --Nabber00 06:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm I the only one who knows that Lavigne did not write her songs in "Let Go" and that the new cd is the first showcase of lavigne's songwriting?Lenore

Lenore, according to the CD booklet, she co-wrote the majority of the songs with the pop songwriters known as "The Matrix." Can anyone clarify this? --Thorns Among Our Leaves 23:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Avril did in fact state many times that she was a punk, that she was the new Sid Vicious, etc. She claimed to be punk im YM magazine in 2001. She was also head cheerleader at her high school and dropped out in junior year. What a great role-model. I have more info about her at Anti-Avril (http://www.avrilsux.tripod.com)

That she dropped out is true, very true. The punk and cheerleader part are all lies. And creating an anti-avril site is just pathetic. You're just jealous. --Joakim

- Your link is dead. "I never once said I was punk. I'm just a really strong, opinionated person." - April 3, 2005 [1] (http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/32742004.htm) --Nabber00 07:17, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Avril Redirect

Why does "Avril" redirect here? Avril is french for the month of april, and has many more meanings than some pop singer.. Disambiguation page much?

Change it then. Dismas

Song Title Capitalization

Some idiot is desperately trying to change the "With" in "I'm With You" to "with", just so that it fits proper English style. It seems, even though I've told him that Avril wanted a capital W (just like Green Day wanted a small "o" in "Boulevard of Broken Dreams"), he is trying to lower-case it anyway.

There's a serious problem going on here. DrippingInk 15:33, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

1. Read Wikipedia:No personal attacks. I've already pointed you toewards this.
2. You've provided no evidence for your claim that lavigne wanted a capital, though I've provided you with a long list of links to sites in which the "with" isn't capitalised.
3. In any case, it's not only proper English style, but also Wikipedia style not capitalise preositions in titles (which why "Boulevarde of Broken Dreams" is perfectly correct). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:50, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

I am also in favor of uppercase "With", but Mel has previously said it's non-negotiable because correct English style isn't a democratic thing. Everyking 18:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

It's more that following Wikipedia style isn't a matter of choice. If you want to argue that the MoS should be chaged, that's another matter (though I'd strongly argue against a change). DrippingInk (talk • contribs) first claimed that he'd checked "hundreds of grammar and spelling books" whicjh supported his view. Having his bluff called, he retreated to the claim that this is how Lavigne wants it spelt; that's not only unproved, but it doesn't explain his attempts similarly to change every other relevant title in the articles that he edits. He then started pesonal attacks on me, including blanking my User page. It's not clear where he'll retreat to next (after his block is lifted). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:00, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

This is a simple issue, we just list the song names as they appear on the CD case, if that isn't accurate, I don't know what is. In this case, the 'with' is uppercase. --Nabber00 06:42, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

So I just pulled down my copy of Blue Man Group's Audio. All the song titles are in all caps. So, by your reasoning, should all the song titles on that article for that CD be in all caps? Dismas 02:28, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I might be willing to consider that a special case, but even so, that still doesn't address the issue of a definitive source for the information. If you look at the Blue Man Group's website it also lists the song titles in all caps, so I would be inclined to think that the intent is to have them all capital.--Nabber00 07:05, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

CD cases frequently contain mistakes — sometimes small, sometimes large. There are often discrepancies between usage on different parts of the insert, or between the insert and the label, or between both and other appearances on reissues or compilations, or between the CDs and printed music, etc. The one thing that we know for certain is what standard English style is, which is why it's best and safest to use it. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:29, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

That is not the case here, you are referring to special cases not relevant to this discussion. Both the insert and case match the capital W, so I doubt its a mistake. All of the reputable websites that I can find use the capital W (probably because that is how it appears on the album). I agree it is safe to use English convention, but it is not necessarily correct, as in this case. By emphasizing standards over correctness, we jeopordize the credibility of Wikipedia.--Nabber00 17:12, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Thank you people! Thank you, thank you, thank you! I love each and every one of you!

Let me get one thing straight here: I am a musician. I don't seem like one, I know, but I certainly am. I am also a songwriter. It may be "incorrect English", but that doesn't matter. Song titles have always been capital (as well as "Spice Up Your Life") and just because it doesn't match the English-style, it is by far extremely correct.

Very nice of you to say that CD cases contain mistakes - this would mean that each and every single one of them do.

From this point forward, the "W" will be capital, and not small. Before you came along, it was capital, and it had been the entire time. Your presence is not going to change that. Plus, why do you consist in changing the Under My Skin single style back to the poorly typed one? You created the other one, and it should be just like that one, because I think it is very well spread out.

However, like I mentioned before, the "W" is going to be capital from this moment on.

And don't think that you saying the picture being a violation is going to help you on Wikipedia. The source I provided clearly states that Avril Lavigne was on MuchMusic, and just to make you look like the fool you are, here is the link: [2] (http://www.muchmusic.com/insidemuch/stuff/avril_at_much.asp)

Au revior. DrippingInk 13:46, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Some of the above is too fractured for me to follow, and some is simply wrong, but with regard to the picture — I'm aware of the source; you stated the source on the image page; now you need to follow your own link and check the Legal information about copyright at the bottom of that page. You are not in a position to say that it's fair use; it comes from a Web site which claims copyright. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:28, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Of course it's too fractured for you to follow. You just choose to ignore it. And none of it is "simply" wrong. Again, you continue to think you are correct. The "W" will go back to being capital yet again. There is one spot where you seem to show your ignorance in this article. And if you ask me, it's ridiculously funny. 64.231.113.36 17:45, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Time for a vote to solve this to help prevent locking the page. Right now it looks like the following want capitals as they appear on the album:

• Nabber00 (talk • contribs)
• Everyking (talk • contribs)
• DrippingInk (talk • contribs)

Proper English style:

• Mel Etitis (talk • contribs)
• Dismas (talk • contribs)

If I have your vote wrong, please change it. Also anyone else that has an opinion, please review the debate above and add your name to the vote count.

I agree with having a vote, and that is indeed how I would vote, but I'm afraid it may be pointless if Mel feels it's non-negotiable. But at least it would show who has the majority if it goes to an RfC. Everyking 20:33, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Voting is fine as a way of helping to gauge consensus, but not on its own; a string of yes/no votes isn't useful — what count are the reasons. (At the moment there's no consensus, of course.)

You see, through dozens of reverts, DrippingInk never claimed that his version was the way the covers had the title, only that he was right, and that hundreds of style and spelling books backed him up, and that I was an idiot, etc. (the history is there on all the Talk pages). You can try to make out that it's just a case of me stubbornly opposing the facts, but it's only recently that anyone has mentioned the supposed facts — and even now no evidence has been offered.

According to the CD reissue of Cat Stevens' Catch Bull at Four, by the way, track 8. is about some Irishman called O'Caritas; it's actually a Latin title, "O Caritas". There are lots of such examples (see also [3] (http://www.last.fm/forum/898/_/25378), and the ASCAP Titele Search FAQ (http://www.ascap.com/ace/ACEfaq.html), according to which a common problem is: "The title may be listed differently on the label of your recording than the way the copyright owner indexed it with ASCAP"); record companies no longer seem to employ copy-editors, and the people who design the covers (and Web sites) are generally not particularly literate. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:16, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm confused. We aren't getting anywhere near a consensus by simply stating our reasons. If we don't have a vote how are we supposed know what the consensus is? Also, if we don't know what the consensus is, shouldn't we keep things here on the talk page and not keeping changing the article until some sort of consensus is reached?

I made my statement for my reasoning on this talk page that it should match the album (May 8). No one objected after a few days, so I changed the article referencing the talk page (May 12). Mel Etitis (talk • contribs) immediately reverted my edit with no explaination. Did I not follow some procedure here? If so I'd really like to know so I don't do it again.

Again you are making references to irrelevant issues. The ASCAP database has everything in uppercase, which doesn't help this dispute of capitalization, only spelling. Please stay on the issue at hand.--Nabber00 22:50, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

• I'm not sure that you've understand the notion of consensus; it's not a majority-voting fake-democracy thing.

I guess I misused the term there. My point is that I've given up on us coming to a decision by consensus, so we should try a different approach. Unless anyone has a better suggestion?--Nabber00 03:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

• Until consensus is reached here or on Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject_Albums, we should stick to correct English and Wikipedia MoS style.

I agree. I felt I had consensus since no one objected to my comment here. Please explain your reasons when editing the page and continue working toward consensus under talk.--Nabber00 03:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

• Try to abstract a little. If song titles on albums can be wrong in one way, they can be wrong in another. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:45, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

This is a specific case we are talking about, this is the Avril Lavigne page after all. If you wish to abstract, the MoS pages are the place for that so we don't have to discuss it on every single page like this one.--Nabber00 03:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I think a vote is fine. But I think you guys are going about this all wrong. You're yelling into a barrel when there's a stadium out there. This isn't about Avril Lavigne. It shouldn't be on her talk page. Where it should be is over on the Manual of Style's talk page. Not everyone who is putting song titles in artist pages will be watching A.L.'s page. Most of them probably don't care about A.L. more than likely... Take this discussion where it's better suited. As far as my "vote": I was simply following what the MoS says. So if you don't like my edit, take it up with the MoS. Dismas 00:21, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd rather not disrupt and entire stadium if I can stick to a barrel. But in any case I added a talk section to Project Albums about it, so have at it.--Nabber00 03:50, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Request for page protection - Mel Etis and DrippingInk, this is for you...

I have added Avril Lavigne to Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Avril_Lavigne. Will you guys please talk about your problems with each other and come to a decision (preferably without the bickering) rather than engaging in a pointless revert war? Kurt Shaped Box 19:20, 15 May 2005 (UTC) 19:20, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Please see my response to your request. The central issues are not related to capitalisation, but include a number of copyvio images up-loaded and added to various articles (including this one) by DrippingInk (talk • contribs). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Our argument has been solved. Get over it. DrippingInk 01:28, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Take Me Away"?

I did not hear anything about "Take Me Away" being released as a single. Unless someone can explain this, it will be removed from the article. DrippingInk 01:28, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

IIRC, it's being released as a single in Australia. I can't remember where I read that now. Remove it by all means if you wish, until I can find a reliable source for this info... Kurt Shaped Box 21:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) 21:19, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I will do that. DrippingInk 19:48, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As far as I can remember, somone mentioned it in a post on the avrilbandaids.com forums without actually quoting a source - not exactly the most reliable of information. I guess time will tell as to whether it gets released or not... Kurt Shaped Box 04:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC) 04:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Avrilbandaids is a very reliable source, since the 50,000+ people there are die-hard Avril fanatics. If you did so read it there, it would be wise to re-add the single release... but you are right. Only time will tell. DrippingInk 15:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)