Talk:American Revolution
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Notice: when linking articles to the American Revolution, be aware of the distinction between the American Revolution and the American Revolutionary War.
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Proposed outline of article
- Background
- Trends in liberal thought
- historic trends to revolution
- colonial history
- British history
- Religious history
- Immediate causes
- European dynastic wars
- mercantilism and trade policy
- American expansion
- The actual revolution
- The political revolution
- American separatists
- The revolution in Britain
- The Revolutionary War (and see main article)
- Building the United States
- Under the Confederation
- Continental Congress
- Consitutional Convention
User:LouI|Lou I]] 00:14 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Origins Section
This is a kind of status update. I've already altered the outline proposed above, but I have completed what I think of as broad origins and created a stub-like paragraph for the immediate causes. We could use an article specific to the American Enlightnment, as well as improvement and expansion in the Great Awakening and the Enlightnent articles. My main efforts are still concentrated on biograpohies and the Revolutionary War, so feel free to expand this article. Thanks for your patience, Lou I 20:50, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous user inserted a reference to the Renaissance into this section. Rmherman reverted it, and I agree with his action. But, one element in the addition was a reference to Gottfried Leibniz. Leibniz may deserve a reference here. His Essays on Understanding was in Jefferson's library, and was undoubtedly read by others of the founders. I just wanted to record this note for future updating. Lou I 16:33, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
I compare the origins of the American Revolutionary War and the Civil War to the Cold War; Every series of events that lead to every war should be considered as cold wars. - John Edward Alexander V--Ed Telerionus 20:51, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Deletions from Origins
Here's the text I removed from this section, with explanations:
European Dynastic Wars, as experienced in the French and Indian Wars, raised several important ideas among the North American colonist.
- Simplified this to discussion of the impact of F&I War.
One of these was the importance of self-reliance for their own defense, and a recognition that the European military establishments were less effective when applied on a continental scale. The Albany Congress taught them the value of cooperation between otherwise divergent colonies. Armies and techniques that might protect Great Britain, France, or the Netherlands could not be extended over thinly populated North America.
- I think the above sentences are, in order: arguable, false, and too vague to be useful. :-)
Another result was a rising sense of frustration, when victories earned in part by their blood and wealth were negotiated away for a gain in Asia or the Caribbean.
- Vague generalization.
At the same time, political changes in Britain, itself, brought to the fore, leaders inclined to be more forceful and active in the governance of Britain's colonies. The Seven Years' War had resulted in a huge expansion of the British Empire thoughout the world, encouraging imperial thinking and ambition. The accession of George III introduced a politically active monarch into British politics for the first time in fifty years, and encouraged the rise of a new Tory party, which would govern under Lord North during the period of the American Revolutionary War. The authoritarian assertiveness of the Tories tended to be magnified in the perceptions of the colonists into intended tyranny. Whigs, who were inclined ideologically to be sympathetic to American aspirations to liberty and self-governance and relieved of the responsibility of governance, became important allies of the American cause in Parliament.
- Restating this later in the article, within a timeline, rather than in a summary up front.
Economic Changes gave further impetus ...
- Ditto.
--Kevin Myers 02:26, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Direction of this article
...to decide the future of this article. Personally, I think we should scrap the 70% of it that deals with eighteenth century America as a whole. But we should also do some thinking about what it is we actually want to talk about here. What was the Revolution, as distinguished from the Revolutionary War? Was the Revolution something that happened before the War and made the War inevitable? Or are we talking the social and political transformations wrought through the Revolutionary upheaval, including the impacts on religion, demographics, Native/White relations, slavery, the colonies' economy; but perhaps most of all colonial independence and the politically radical decade from 1776 to 1787. Personally the second view makes more sense to me, and I'd hesitate for that reason to put these things into an "Aftermath" section. On the other hand, sections on pre-Revolution America should really go mostly to an article on the (social) history of the Thirteen Colonies. QuartierLatin1968 00:47, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- These are good observations. I think the previous version of the article consisted of too many generalities -- an overview or interpretation of the Revolution (vaguely defined), rather than a history of it. I think there's a better approach. To state the obvious, revolution is about change, so an article about any revolution should fall into three broad sections: (1) the way things were before the revolution, (2) what happened during the revolution, and (3) how the world was different after the revolution. Easier said than done, of course. I don't think the article should just be a countdown to the war (which I don't believe was inevitable). I think we need more material about "What happened" (other than the war) and "how the world was different" -- the social and political transformations -- but without resorting to generalities. --Kevin Myers 02:08, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Loyalists
I believe it is inaccurate to say that: "Loyalties It should be noted, however, that a large proportion of the population did stay loyal to Britain, or at least remained neutral during the war. Loyalists, known as Tories, included members of the aristocracy who had a lot to lose, as well as recent immigrants who identified more with their birthplace than their new home. Both during and following the war, Tories were forced to flee to Canada or Britain. Many Native Americans also opposed the revolution, believing that they were likely to suffer more at the hands of independent Americans than the British. An estimated 10-15% of colonists were Loyalists, and about one-third of them left the United States. Some 70,000 Loyalists fled, along with 2,000 Native Americans. 50,000 of these Loyalists went to Canada, where they helped form the colonies of New Brunswick and Ontario. Some black Loyalists went to Sierra Leone." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:American_Revolutionary_War)
AS it is seemingly unsupported and in that:
regarding the American Revolutionary War of Indepdence (please not this as my response to the issues earlier stated) that "One-third loyal, one-third patriot, one-third undecided." (John Adams (“2. Loyalists a. 100,000 left the colonies4. Declaring Independence (WAYCROSS COLLEGE DR. COREY LESSEIG http://www.waycross.edu/faculty/coless/Am1lec.htm)
(which I recall was corroborated by Dr. Herbert Apteker in lectures attended by Andrew Zito) and in that:
“Loyalists, that sizeable pro-British element, perhaps a majority when open war began, who had stood by established law and imperial unity against revolutionary upheaval” (http://www.canadianheritage.org/books/canada4.htm) “New York City, which was at that time more pro-British than England itself.“ (The Tribes and the States W. J. Sidis chapter 23, http://www.sidis.net/TSChap23.htm)
The question the colonial elite must have repeatedly asked each other is if the growing class hatred developing in the colonies could be focused against the pro-British elite, and be deflected from themselves, the national elite? (Lecture Notes 3 - The American Revolution African American History - Spring 1999 Department of History, St. John's University by Omar, Ali http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/4275/StJohnsLec3.html ). "about 40% of the population was pro-British. (The Presbyterian Rebellion ( by Harry Seabrook (harry@littlegeneva.com" http://www.littlegeneva.com/docs/presbyterian.htm )
- The lectures and notes that Zito cites are intersting but not entirely accurate. First, we must know that no one knows the TRUE numbers of rebels, tories, and indifferent population. That said, New York City was originally a hotbed of the revolution. From 1765-1775 as many incidents happened ther as the more widely known ones in Boston. By the end of 1775 the royal governor had to leave, and withdraw a small garrison with him. The notes cited claim that there were a great many loyalists in New York. By the summer of 76, there were. Open fighting in New England caused numbers of Tories to leave home. When the British left Boston in March, Tory refugee centers became NYC and Nove Scotia. Everyone expected the British Army to come to New York.
- To net this discussion, I haven't seen anything to cause me to want the article changed. However, eventually the loyalist-rebel or Tory-Whig notes should go to the revolution article, not the war. Lou I 16:06, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Choosing Sides
It might be relevant to change the titles in this section from conservative and democratic to conservative and liberal, and perhaps clarify a bit as how those have changed over the years. The political issues of the time and wheather or not they can be converted to our time is debatable. The article points out the slave irony but leaves it at that. To quote salvidor dali "a man can go from liberal to conservative in 20 years without changing a single thought" and thats especially true in america, i don't want to change this because im a pretty bad writer and don't have time to research, but maybe someone does.