Talk:Ambrosius Aurelianus

From Academic Kids

I have removed the statement:

Perhaps Gildas' statement inspired -- or is explained by -- the Welsh tradition that he was one of the sons of the emperor Magnus Maximus and his Celtic wife, Helen.

I do not remember ever encountering this and am dubious that the tradition exists.

I also removed:

In speculating about this conflict, one must admit that it is very likely the historical Ambrosius and Vortigern never even heard of one another during their real lives, let alone actually met.

Why must one admit something so dubious? Certainly, if Vortigern actually lived, then Ambrosius certainly would have heard of him, even if their careers did not overlap and even if Vortigern was rather unlike the figure that tradition provides. jallan 01:25, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Removed the following (saved here for comments):

McCarthy's Synchronised Irish Annals include the entry "Ambrosius duc" for the year 479, implying that 479 was when Ambrosius took over from Vortigern as leader (became "wledig" or Overlord) of the Romano-British.

I'm not sure just who McCarthy is, but unless he has access to a primary document discovered within the last 10 years, what he writes is just one more theory to explain the facts; had the original Irish Annals mentioned Ambrosius, I would have heard of it.

Apparently Pachiaammos wrote:

Italic textBold text He is and he does. He is a precise scholar who has re-examined the various annals and used the ferials in their margins to co-ordinate them.

So you believe this McCarthy is a reliable source. Would you be so kind as to provide his full name & the necessary information to identify his book (such as title, publisher, date)?

(P.S. Please sign your comments; you can do this by adding three tildes -- ~~~ -- to append your name, or four tildes -- ~~~~ -- to add both your name & the time of your post.) -- llywrch 01:19, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have put back a shorter, less controversial, reference to the date 479. McCarthy published his Chronological Synchronisation of the Irish Annals from the Dept of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin in 1999. The web reference is <<www.cs.tcd.ie/Dan.McCarthy/chronology/synchronisms>>. The author gives his own email for enquiries as <mccarthy@cs.tcd.ie>. ||||

I type 4 tildes and I just get 4 vertical lines, but yes this is Pachiaammosand it's 22 April at 9.05am BST

The more-precise meaning, "grandfather" is probably intended, for Gildas is addressing his contemporary (in c547) King Cynan of Powys whose Latin name, Conanus Aurelius, suggests direct descent from Ambrosius Aurelianus.

While some would argue this, it assumes that Aurelius & Aurelianus were the same family name -- much like Johns & Johnson. This assumption might be credible were it not for the fact both Aurelius & Aurelianus were very common family names in Late Roman times; thus to state this similarity (which just as easily can be argued is coincidence) tips the scales is POV.

The name 'Aurelianus' means (at least during earlier Roman times) that he was originally from gens Aurelia, and was adopted into some other family (an example: Gaius Octavius being adopted into gens Julia and thus being named Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus). Therefore, it is entirely possible (even if not definitive) that 'Aurelianus' and 'Aurelius' refer to the same family. Kuralyov 20:11, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Guoloph, according to Nennius, is Wallop in Hampshire, and the battle took place 12 years into the reign of Vortigern, said elsewhere to have begun in 425. The Ambrosius who fought there is surely, by inference, the father of Ambrosius Aurelianus, the one who wore the purple, or an earlier ancestor. Elsewhere, Nennius indicates that Aurelianus was still a lad when he was called to lead the Britons.

"Nennius" (as this contributor calls the Historia Britonum) is quoted to give this period a reliability that does not exist for this period, & Nennius' details raise as many questions as they appear to answer. If we are to spend the time extensively discussing Aurelianus in Nennius, then we should devote similar space to Aurelianus in Geoffrey of Monmouth, de Boron & the Welsh legends.

I've also had to fix some errors in the translation from the Latin (which is based on Michael Winterbottom's translation), where the orginal use of the singular has been replaced by plural forms for reasons I don't understand. -- llywrch 20:00, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Location of the Battle of Guoloph

I hadn't known there was a Wallop in Wilshire; from my reading, I had assumed the only place identified as the location for this battle was Norton Shrubs, a village near Cirencester. (Admittedly it's an old identification, but when it's the only guess one has, one goes with that guess.) And I'd add this to the article, but I've misremembered the reference I had found this in. -- llywrch 18:11, 2 May 2004 (UTC)