User talk:Zappaz

Dear Zappaz, I would like to call your attention to the article on Robert J Lifton who is frequently quoted by member of anti-cult movements of all sorts. Lifton is a very well-known psychiatrist in countercult circles and recently he softened his theories and toned down his speeches, while adding other dimentions to his search of 'roots of the evil' (to which activity he was inspired by some rabbi, according to his interview). The fact is that while Lifton is som much important as legitimate scholar with generally OK renome, the bias manifests in increasing this level of legitimacy. Then he is being quoted as big authority on other pages, most notably concerning: roots of (Arab) terrorism, anti-semitism, cults (including 'Christian) et cetera. Please kindly review the page and add some balance, thank you very much. You may safely delete this messag afterwards

China History Forum (serious POV problem)

I have noticed that for the last several days, the article China History Forum has been extensively altered to suit the point of view of its founder, General Zhaoyun. This could imply self-promotion and misrepresentation of facts. May 27, 2005

Divinity

May I take this off the Prem Rawat page for a moment?

What we are discussing here is the claim of divinity, such as "I am God". Claiming to be Satguru is not the same as claiming to be God.

I'm interested in the larger question: what does it mean when claims of divinity are made regarding a human being?

On one extreme, you can have the real-life equivalent of what was portrayed in movies: George Burns in Oh, God! or Morgan Freeman in Bruce Almighty. This is God the Creator Himself appearing in human form to interact with a selected individual (to teach or inspire, apparently).

In the case of gurus or messiahs like Prem Rawat and (arguably) Sun Myung Moon, you have people claiming a special connection to, er, "the divine" -- or some sort of special status, like "I am the chosen one and am thus so important that you really ought to drop everything and start listening to me."

The criticism He says he's God has to be taken in context of the above. To really do justice to the objections, we have to figure out what the objectors really mean.

"I created the heavens and earth and am Omnipotent and Omniscient".
"I'm perfect and you should listen to me."

I doubt that Prem Rawat is making the first claim. Sun Myung Moon certainly does not.

I get the impression that Rawat's claim is closer to the second. Moon alternates between (a)making the second claim and (b) asserting that he's a fallible human being, e.g., "One mistake I made took me 7 years to fix."

Stop me if you don't want to discuss this here... Anyway, great work on Prem Rawat; I hope you will continue! --Uncle Ed 14:52, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

By the hight tempers expressed recently on the talk page, I am re-considering if it is worth my time and effort to continue.... we shall see...

In regards to the "claims of divinity", my research shows that he made claims 20 years ago in the cultural context of the Indian culture that may be perceived as claim of divinity. Certainly in current speeches (I mean in the last 20 years or so) he presents himself for as a guide, master, friend, etc. and most certainly human, not god-like. Detractors, being somewhat "stuck" in a time-warp of 20-30 years ago, cannot accept the evolution that clearly exist in his presentation of himself. They see this as malicious. --Zappaz 20:03, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps an explanation like this would suffice:

In recent years, Rawat has soft-pedaled his earlier claims of divinity, presenting himelf as a guide, master, friend, etc. and most certainly human, not god-like. (Good luck dealing with the angry hordes; I'm taking a vacation myself!) --Uncle Ed 13:14, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That is not bad.... Will try and use it.... but I am not very confident that will calm the hordes... :) Have a great vacation. --Zappaz 14:25, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, could you email me the article by Ron Geaves? Thanks in advance. Andrieskd AT chello DOT NL Andries 15:00, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Will do. -- Zappaz 15:28, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, I do not think that DUO is the same as the DLM. It is related but different. Andries 20:01, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You may be right... mind soing some resarch on this? Ther is a discrepancy: Hans Ji maharaj seem to have founded DUO, but on the expremie site they claim that Prem Rawat formed it... a bit of confusion here... I will remove the entry about DUO from te main article until we find out.--Zappaz

Is it time for the secret video handshake?

Zappaz, from a few of your most recent edits I do believe you have raided my contributions list, LOL! I was a video weenie for a short while, many years ago, from whence comes my occasional interest in things luminant and chromatic. Are you perchance also an ex- or current video-premie-weenie? ;-) --Gary D 00:26, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, indeed.... I was waiting for this message. Yes, I have developed some hardware and software for video applications (may years ago) and I am somewhat proficient on video compression and codecs, so I am intersted in that subject.... I was checking your contrib list and bingo... :-) --Zappaz 04:05, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I am twice over a video weenie. First, I was a video engineer at a television station, that was the many-years-ago thing, even before serious digital, really. Then, more recently I was the lawyer at a small dot com company that did MPEG-based streaming video. It later turned out that company had sold an unprotected product that had allowed the DVD Content Scrambling System to be hacked into and defeated. I had nothing to do with it, honest! --Gary D 04:18, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

So.. now you are telling me that you were involved on the de-CSS thingy? On my! :) Are you still involed in startups? I had my share of that as well, now prefer to hide under the more solid façade of "Consultant"--Zappaz 04:24, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid that was indeed my ex-employer. Yikes! I think (hope) I was already out of there by then, though. These days I do strictly the law firm thing, no more "on spec" stuff. --Gary D 07:23, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

Nice to know that you both are interested in video & digital. I saw your contributions to Luminance. Sorry Zappaz, but I had to "undo" you last one... The "L" in HSL color space stands for "Lightness" and not "Luminance". This is a usual confusion. :). As a digital artist, the choice of color space to use is always interesting. You can see my digital paintings here: http://jossif.deviantart.com/gallery/ and here: http://jossif.deviantart.com/scraps/.

Taking the opportunity to thank you both for your work on Prem Rawat

≈ jossi ≈ 03:33, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Ooops! I stand corrected, Jossi. My knowledge must be a bit rusty... Cool paintings, BTW! --Zappaz 14:52, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hate group

~~Zappaz, I noticed that you had changed the checklist of a hate group without references or explanation. I think this is wrong. Please do not do it again. Thanks. Andries 17:34, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)~~

sorry for my false accusation. It was not you. Andries 17:36, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Help

Gary, Talk:Hate_group is going out of hand. All started with a mention in the article by Andries and me regarding hate groups as it pertains to NRMs, and I am afraid it now has escalated to an open war. I am afraid I cannot do much more at this stage, maybe just compound the problem :( . Could you come over there and help restore a bit of peace? That page is becoming USENET and civility degrading slowly. Thanks. --Zappaz 16:33, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm happy to help, but I don't generally try to tame talk pages, as opposed to article pages. I believe I would be unable to do so, and am not sure I want to, anyway. I never tamed the talk pages of the Prem Rawat complex as they swole and flamed; instead, I merely slogged through the massive invective to glean the gems pertaining to article editing. Talk pages serve as pressure valves where both sides can vent their mutual hostility without damaging the article with reverts or massive deletes. I compared here the activity on the Hate group talk page with that on its article page over the last few days, and while the talk page has taken off, PR-style, the article has only undergone a few minor edits. Indeed, the raging on the talk page isn't even about the article page or its editing anymore, it's just degenerated into the same old pro/anti PR warring we saw in the PR talk pages. Heck, we could just open one of the old PR talk archives and paste it on this talk page, and no one would notice the difference, LOL! I think if we didn't have this talk page outlet, people would be venting their spleen on the Hate group article page instead, reverting it every five minutes. Between those two options, I'd rather have it the current way.

Now, that's not to say I don't recognize a problem, or that I wouldn't like to see calm and cheerful cooperation on the talk page also. That's a bigger issue, though, one involving people loving their neighbor as themselves and loving their enemies. No third party can impose that from the outside; it has to be a series of personal choices on the parts of the participants (or should I say, warriors) themselves. Your comment above about compounding the problem is insightful. It starts with each one of us, and it ends with each one of us. As an editor actively participating on the Hate group pages, you, Zappaz, your contribution to the editing atmosphere in either direction is significant. If you fuel the fire, it grows; if you dampen it, it shrinks. The legitimate business of the talk page is to discuss editing the article, a task you must perform with Andries and others who don't share your views. There's a sneaking respect in there between you and Andries, and you can build on that. Putting your nose to the editing grindstone and not becoming upset by or involved in the invective is the order of the day. Let others do what they will; as to you, you will be the example. And if someone says something outrageous and you're tempted to shoot back, think of it this way: You're there on the editor team representing a viewpoint, and indeed representing the group behind that viewpoint, whether officially or not. Now, I'm not saying you're anyone's stooge or spy, that's obviously not the point. But it's absolutely true that what you do here reflects on your spiritual path and on PR. In the long run, how you do everything you do is probably more important even than what you do. The big Christian motto going around these last few years was, "what would Jesus do?" I put that on you now as, if he were here writing on the talk page and article page, what would Maharaji do? That should be your standard. Here's a little prayer from A Course in Miracles that puts a fine point on it; it may or may not fit the circumstances exactly, but it expresses the sentiment and attitude I am advocating:

I am here only to be truly helpful.

I am here to represent Him Who sent me.

I do not have to worry about what to say or what to do, because He Who sent me will direct me.

I am content to be wherever He wishes, knowing He goes there with me.

I will be healed as I let Him teach me to heal.

This is an awfully long way for me to go 'round just to tell you that I'm not going to do anything for you. But there's something far more powerful on the horizon: You're going to do it for yourself! Be the one. You have the power; I know you can and will do it. I'll be watching. Make me proud. Make Maharaji proud. Make God proud. Get in there and spread the peace and the edits around.

--Gary D 20:01, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Gary ... I may not agree with you on some of the beliefs you expressed, but I appreciate your kindness and the time you took in answering. I'll do my best to calm things down, starting home first :) From my studies, to attempt to know "what Jesus would do" would a bit of a minefield ... and I would not know what Maharaji would do either (from what I have read, he will probably ignore the whole thing and let it be) ... I liked the prayer though... Thanks again.

--Zappaz 20:37, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement. I may say that it certainly feels better now... --Zappaz 04:40, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You're very welcome. Glad to hear it feels better; my guess is that if it feels good in your gut, you're probably on the right track! I saw the substantial material you added to the Hate group article page—great stuff, and I don't think you'll get too much "where's you authority" flak when using material from the FBI! Good job; moving on to the article and getting those edits done is what it's all about at WP. I also saw you on the Ex-premies talk page extending a hand and trying to cool the flames with other editors. Again, good show! The good news is that you'll be amazed how often a peaceful demeanor will bring around "the other guy." The bad news is that even when it doesn't, you still have to keep up your own peaceful demeanor anyway! LOL. Sometimes it doesn't seem fair, but it always works out for the best in the end. It turns out those goddamn bastards are our brothers, LOL. When we get that through our thick skulls, then we automatically do what Jesus would do, and Maharaji too, I bet. Hang in there. --Gary D 08:16, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Another two cents from me

Happy to weigh in again. Let me get right to my POV, which colors my conclusions: As you may have gleaned from my comments, I believe the proper use of the term "hate group" as it has been used and defined so far is limited to those who hate broad categories of people, unconnected to behavior or specific events. Hence, I think that its use in connection with NRMs or specific causes like abortion or animals rights is incorrect. Now, language is always evolving, and with sufficient usage over a sustained period the term's meaning could be broadened to include these areas, but I think such broader use is currently a misnomer.

For me, the upshot is that there is still an encyclopedic aspect to discussing the recent application of the term "hate group" to an NRM or specific activity group, but it's a narrow one, and it applies strictly to the bare fact that the term is being so used, rather than to attempting to substantively compare "true" hate groups with other groups to whom the term is applied. In other words, the article's full-blown analysis focused on the groups themselves should be reserved for true "status-hating" groups, mostly racists I suppose: "Dear reader, these are hate groups, here is their history, here is their structure, here are their activities." Then, there is room for a sort of P.S. mention about the term "hate group" being used in other arenas, like NRMs and specific activity groups. I also like the current counterpoint in the article responding that the use of such a loaded term in these other areas is propagandist. But I think the bare listing of the fact of that other area usage and the countercomplaint about such usage is about all there should be. Beyond that, I agree with Antaeus Feldspar that it's just too far afield of the core definition. I'm talking about, like, one paragraph. Bang: The term has occasionally been given a wider use lately, as with abortion, animal rights, NRMs. Bang: on the pro-NRM side, the Scientologists have been called that. Bang: on the anti-NRM side, the ex-premies have been called that. Bang: Shupe and Darnell question use of this term in the NRM context. And get out.

So I'm sideswiping your NPOV question by recommending instead that the whole section be so reduced and streamlined essentially into bullet points of fact that there isn't even room in the section for POV to build up. A discussion on whether Scientologists are properly defined as a hate group, if it is merited at all (a big "if" for me, given my premises above), would go on the Scientology page; that discussion as to the ex-premies, big "if" again, would go on a PR page; same for animal rights and abortion foes, their own pages, more big "ifs." The substantive discussion of violence brewing either for or against NRMs, if merited, deserves its own article or a section in the NRMs article, and Introvigne and Barker would all go there. Frankly, I would really like to see you take out your machete on this section; among the benefits of doing so, aside from the obvious one of greatly improving this section (IMO), is the pleasing irony that you will find Antaeus and probably Andries on your side in this endeavor. I wish you happy slashing. --Gary D 09:43, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Yes!

Zap, I think your slash edit on Hate groups was exactly the ticket. I think you, and we all, will be very happy with the results of your work. Thanks for giving my slant on this a shot, and good job! --Gary D 21:29, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Your inconsistent view points on references for cults and hate groups

In talk:cult you say that the checklists must go because they are unscientific, though they are clearly mentioned as disputed and attributed to the anti-cult movement. The one by Lifton is referenced. I support replacement of the other checklist by the one by Eileen Barker. Andries 12:45, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In talk:hate group you support a checklist presented as proven fact that is unattributed, but just made up and you oppose my view that the checklist must be referenced. Andries 12:45, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I may miss something but it seems that you use double standards to support your views. I hope that your can re-consider your opinions about references for checklists on these subjects. Thanks in advance. Andries 12:39, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good point, Andries. I do not have a problem with these checklists if they are placed in the destructive cults article. --Zappaz 19:07, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, thanks for you changing your opinion. The problem is, I think, that it is difficult to distinguish between a harmless NRM, a cult and a destructive cult. That is why I think the checklists are important and should stay in the cult article, or at least directly linked to. I mean, my former group has some destructive/exploiting traits, which I only found out after nine years. Besides many scholars, the media and the public do not make the distinction between a cult and a destructive cult. Andries 19:19, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That is exactly the reason: the media and the public do not make that distinction. My hope is that the Wikipedia articles can throw some neutral light into that confusion. That is my hope. With your help and the help of other editors editing those articles, we have a good chance to suceed in doing that. And that would be a wonderful thing. --Zappaz 01:10, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Regarding your complaints about Andries' behavior

May be it is because of my English but I think I was the co-author of the Criticism of Prem Rawat article. So were you. So was Jossi. I admit that Gary D was the main author. May be I am confused because of the subtle language differences between Dutch and Engish. Same for e.g. the word "study" that has a slightly different meaning when compared to the Dutch word "studie", which was, in hindsight, the reason for one of my many disputes with Jossi. Andries 23:06, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I only said on talk:past teachings of Prem Rawat that I do not understand you. In fact, I defended you against Jim's accusations. Andries 23:06, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I checked what I wrote on forum8 about you the last 60 days and I could only find the following post by me in which I defended you. http://www.forum8.org/forum8/posts/7621.html Andries 23:06, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I really do not understand why you think that my behavior towards you is inappropriate. Andries 23:06, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, I think we have to concentrate on articles to prevent endless and senseless discussions. I do not think that we will ever agree about your complaints about my behavior. Andries 01:26, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I clearly see that you do not want to take responsibility for your actions. Fair enough. --Zappaz 05:35, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, I do take responsibility for my words. I write here under my real name and I even clarified my words outside Wikipedia (http://www.forum8.org/forum8/posts/9247.html) upon your request here in Wikipedia. This is far more than the guidelines in Wikipedia or its spirit demand. Andries 18:30, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Besides, I did not make a cloaked accusation towards you. I had no other intention than to defend both Jim and you. What can I do to convince you of that? In that post (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Past_teachings_of_Prem_Rawat&diff=7082736&oldid=7082662) I explicitly wrote that I believed you to be sincere. It is not my fault that you go far beyond the literal meaning of what I wrote there and suspect that I made a cunning attack on your credibility. It took me even a while before I understood to what extent you had misinterpreted what I wrote. Andries 18:30, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks

Zappaz, I appreciate the information from Marc Galanter in the DLM article. Andries 18:13, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC) ~

Your views on apostasy

I generally consider apostates' testimony to be reliable. For years I thought that the detractors of SSB had been dirty liars who had been bribed to give false tesimonies and I even actively helped to distribute one discourse by SSB in which he said that (http://www.kingdomofsai.org/DISCOURSES/Disc20001225.html). I am myself an apostate and I know that I did not exaggerate in the case of SSB. Please take into account that leaving is a lot of trauma, as Barrett wrote. Ardent followers usually only leave when they feel they have no choice based on their own experience and the information that they have received. And then getting branded as a liar or as unreliable after a traumatic experience is unfair and very insulting. Andries 08:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The fact that you have had a traumatic experience with one specific NRM, does not warrant animosity againts 'all NRMs. That is is a significat finding in my study. Your case is not isolated. BTW, apostate testimony is indeed considered not reliable because of the huge emotional baggage they carrry as a result of their change of heart. I feel for you, Andries, but please do not use WP as an unguent to ease your pain. That is unfair to others and mainly unfair to yourself. -Zappaz 14:55, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, the emotional baggage clearly wanes after some time. So that means, following your line of reasoning, that apostate's testimony will automatically become reliable after some time. Andries 16:28, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Zappaz, following your line of reasoning, a judge should consider the tesimony of a victim of a crime unreliable because the victim is too emotionally involved. I am not a aware that judges have general opionions about the reliability of the victims of crimes. It seems that your line of reasoning is non mainstream and belongs to a small minority which according to NPOV guidelines should not to be mentioned. Andries 20:28, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am working on a major extension to the apostasy article that includes information about this. --Zappaz 19:43, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

With regards to my alleged double standards (or anticultists'), please take into account that I did not remove the ex-premies from the hate group article and more importantly that I did not criticize several NRMs, like Swami Roberto and Benjamin Creme's Share international that I created, though I personally believe that they are either frauds or self deceived. I only oppose a whitewashed picture of religious leaders, like SSB and Prem Rawat here in Wikipedia whose lack of authenticity has been well documented elsewhere. In the beginning, before you were here, supporters of Prem Rawat removed documented accusations from the Prem Rawat article. Andries 08:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Same as above. The fact that you have had a traumatic experience with Sai Baba does not mean that all gurus are bad, or that all pictures of religious leaders in WP are a whitewash. --Zappaz 14:55, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, either I did not make myself clear or you did not read my reply to you well. I said that the entries on Swami Roberto and Benjamin Creme did not give a whitewashed picture because there is not documentation that they are either frauds or self deceived. This is in sharp contrast to SSB and Prem Rawat. I never meant to say that all pictures of religious leaders in Wikipedia are whitewashed. On the contrary. Andries 08:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. From my research, I disagree with your perception that Prem Rawat is self-deceived or a fraud. That is an example of the effects of the propaganda disseminated by his critics. --Zappaz 19:43, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, Prem Rawat is at least incompetent for the profession of a guru or Perfect Master. For example he said that Jesus gave Knowledge. Andries 19:50, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't follow. What do you mean? Pls clarify.--Zappaz 00:49, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Your inconsistent view points on references for cults and hate groups

In talk:cult you say that the checklists must go because they are unscientific, though they are clearly mentioned as disputed and attributed to the anti-cult movement. The one by Lifton is referenced. I support replacement of the other checklist by the one by Eileen Barker. Andries 12:45, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In talk:hate group you support a checklist presented as proven fact that is unattributed, but just made up and you oppose my view that the checklist must be referenced. Andries 12:45, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good point, Andries. I do not have a problem with these checklists if they are placed in the destructive cults article. --Zappaz 19:07, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Regarding your complaints about Andries' behavior

I only said on talk:past teachings of Prem Rawat that I do not understand you. In fact, I defended you against Jim's accusations. Andries 23:06, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I really do not understand why you think that my behavior towards you is inappropriate. Andries 23:06, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I clearly see that you do not want to take responsibility for your actions. Fair enough. --Zappaz 05:35, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks

Zappaz, I appreciate the information from Marc Galanter in the DLM article. Andries 18:13, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC) ~

Apostasy

Your views on apostasy

I generally consider apostates' testimony to be reliable. For years I thought that the detractors of SSB had been dirty liars who had been bribed to give false tesimonies and I even actively helped to distribute one discourse by SSB in which he said that (http://www.kingdomofsai.org/DISCOURSES/Disc20001225.html). I am myself an apostate and I know that I did not exaggerate in the case of SSB. Please take into account that leaving is a lot of trauma, as Barrett wrote. Ardent followers usually only leave when they feel they have no choice based on their own experience and the information that they have received. And then getting branded as a liar or as unreliable after a traumatic experience is unfair and very insulting. Andries 08:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The fact that you have had a traumatic experience with one specific NRM, does not warrant animosity againts 'all NRMs. That is is a significat finding in my study. Your case is not isolated. BTW, apostate testimony is indeed considered not reliable because of the huge emotional baggage they carrry as a result of their change of heart. I feel for you, Andries, but please do not use WP as an unguent to ease your pain. That is unfair to others and mainly unfair to yourself. -Zappaz 14:55, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, the emotional baggage clearly wanes after some time. So that means, following your line of reasoning, that apostate's testimony will automatically become reliable after some time. Andries 16:28, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Zappaz, following your line of reasoning, a judge should consider the tesimony of a victim of a crime unreliable because the victim is too emotionally involved. I am not a aware that judges have general opionions about the reliability of the victims of crimes. It seems that your line of reasoning is non mainstream and belongs to a small minority which according to NPOV guidelines should not to be mentioned. Andries 20:28, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am working on a major extension to the apostasy article that includes information about this. --Zappaz 19:43, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

With regards to my alleged double standards (or anticultists'), please take into account that I did not remove the ex-premies from the hate group article and more importantly that I did not criticize several NRMs, like Swami Roberto and Benjamin Creme's Share international that I created, though I personally believe that they are either frauds or self deceived. I only oppose a whitewashed picture of religious leaders, like SSB and Prem Rawat here in Wikipedia whose lack of authenticity has been well documented elsewhere. In the beginning, before you were here, supporters of Prem Rawat removed documented accusations from the Prem Rawat article. Andries 08:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Same as above. The fact that you have had a traumatic experience with Sai Baba does not mean that all gurus are bad, or that all pictures of religious leaders in WP are a whitewash. --Zappaz 14:55, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, either I did not make myself clear or you did not read my reply to you well. I said that the entries on Swami Roberto and Benjamin Creme did not give a whitewashed picture because there is not documentation that they are either frauds or self deceived. This is in sharp contrast to SSB and Prem Rawat. I never meant to say that all pictures of religious leaders in Wikipedia are whitewashed. On the contrary. Andries 08:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zappaz, Prem Rawat is at least incompetent for the profession of a guru or Perfect Master. For example he said that Jesus gave Knowledge. Andries 19:50, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't follow. What do you mean? Pls clarify.--Zappaz 00:49, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Apostasy article

I think the Apostasy article works quite well as a single article featuring sections for each religion, since the article can then discuss apostasy as an overall interpersonal or social phenomenon, and how it plays out in the contexts of these various religions. And if any specific religion's section grows sufficiently large and detailed, it can then be broken out into its own article. This article looks good overall, except the Christian section can't just be a link to Great Apostasy, since that is actually an inverted, almost ironic use of the term: Instead of the main group being left by a few, as is the case with standard apostasy, here instead some small, selective groups within Christianity use the term "Great Apostasy" in the reverse sense to mean that essentially the whole Christian faith walked out on them. So this section needs instead a discussion of standard Christian apostasy, maybe followed by a note to the effect that this term has also been turned back and used against the main group, see Great Apostasy. --Gary D 21:00, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Gary. Yes, my intention was to add a summary to the section on Christianity and have a see also for the Great Apostasy. It will be hard to do a short summary for this section, though... Once I am done I'll let you know. I would appreciate some copyedit from you, if your could. --Zappaz 22:47, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Extinct Sanskrit

Would you consider revising your removal of Category:Extinct Languages from Sanskrit language? I'd prefer to persuade you, rather than just reverting the article.

Frequent study, choral and liturgical use does not make a language "living". Use of Latin in the Catholic Church before the 1960s didn't mean that Latin was alive then, except through French or Romanian, or its other descendants. Even its use in discussions within the curia didn't make it living. Show me a fair-sized community for which classical Sanskrit is the first language for all speakers, and I'll buy that Sanskrit is living. Note that I don't mean some commune of Sanskrit revivalists, either. Ben 04:48, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Ben. The issue here is the definition of "extint language". Is this taxonomy used elsewhere? Let's explore that. --Zappaz 15:18, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'm pretty happy with the definition in the Extinct language article, which describes them as languages for which there are no native speakers. I'd be a bit pickier, though, to make sure I ruled out revivalist efforts like those claimed to exist for Manx, Sanskrit, and others, by explaining that there was no community of native speakers. (In fact, if this definition implied that Modern Hebrew does not make Biblical Hebrew non-extinct, I could probably live with that. But that's my preference and my extension of the definition, not the def itself)

If you'd like, I can do some research on the subject to explore this. -Ben 22:21, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That will be excellent... a good and shared understanding on this would set a precedent that can be used on other articles about languages as well... happy hunting! --Zappaz 01:26, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

New year's resolutions

Since you were so "generous" as to suggest New Year's resolutions for me, I thought I'd return the favor:

Act with integrity.

What do I mean by "integrity"? It's the opposite of a double standard: instead of deciding in each case "which standard works out in my favor?" and advocating that standard there, and another one over here, and still another over there, figure out what standard represents actual fairness, and try to abide by that standard. Refuse the temptation to define any case in which the standard is not in your favor as an exception to the standard or a clear indication that the standard needs to be modified. If you ever get good at this "integrity" stuff then yes, you will find cases where your original standard didn't anticipate the complexity of the situation and its own complexity will have to be enhanced -- but don't use that as a cheap dodge to maintain a double standard. Live by your new standard as you did by the old and don't give in to the temptation to change it just because in this particular situation it didn't work out to your advantage. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:37, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I can see that I may be preceived by you as acting without integrity so I will make sure that your perception of me changes. Because integrity is something that I consider precious. --Zappaz 02:43, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Antaeus Feldspar

Antaeus Feldspar is quite a problem. He is engaged in cyber-bullying and puts people down. He is arbitralily deleting material. I saw he was causing problems with you too.

Did he go against an arbritrttion?

I had several tough moments with Antaeus here at WP. My strategy these days is to avoid him as much as possible. --Zappaz 02:53, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Names of God

Greetings, Zappaz. My apologies again for the delay. First, let me thank you for citing my Approach on your user page and for copyediting it – I really appreciate and feel honoured that you go on to recommend it to other editors. Secondly, I'm afraid I will not be editing the article in question since I have been abstaining from all article contributions for the last several months for reasons that go beyond the scope of this note, though still helping on PR, RfC, etc. (since 2005, I have been back in limited capacity to work on the series of articles I originally worked on upon first joining WP – I authored the Central African Federation a few days ago, it is my first article contribution in several months). All that said, please feel to consult me on anything you wish. While I am largely a 20th Century historian, I am also a professional translator, therefore, I may prove useful to your work here on that front. So, do not hesitate to ask my opinions on any item, nor entering these or portions of which as article edits yourself (I could care less whether my name appears in an article's revision history as per given edits). At your disposal,

Cordially & sincerely yours,

El_C 22:37, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for the offer of help. I will be consuling with you on several of the linguistic aspects of the article. --Zappaz 02:54, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Zappas, love the work youre doing. Especially in this particular article. God Bless.

-Eric 00:10, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you Eric.... but I share the laurels with a bunch of other wonderful editors! --Zappaz 04:34, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dirya Sandesh Parishad?

Hello Zappaz, are you sure with Dirya? I am pretty sure, it is "Divya", as it was printed in the old materials, has sanskrit roots meaning "divine,heavenly", also written "Divya Sandes Parisad" with different transliteration as mentioned in "Indische Mission und neue Frömmigkeit im Westen" from Reinhart Hummel at page 75.regards Thomas h 11:09, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That is the spelling in George Chryssides' dictionary. I can double check ith other sources. --Zappaz 21:08, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Found another source at [1] (http://www.dci.dk/index.php?artikel=333) its "Divya". Thomas h 11:27, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not necessarily. That article is citing the same articles, and could easily be a circular reference ( a mispelling creeps in and then cited and quoted by others, perpetuating it). I am researching this via a colleague of mine in Mumbai. BTW, The Dialog Center is probably from where Andries picked up that spelling. [2] (http://www.dci.dk/en/?article=1115)--Zappaz 16:25, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Technically possible, but believe me, in 14 years, i have never heard of a Dirya Sandesh Parishad. On ex-premie.org there is only Divya Sandesh Parishad mentioned as well; Divya and Parisad have sanskrit roots, the former meaning divine , the latter meaning gathering, assembly, group. Thomas h 16:55, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Peer review/Names of God in Judaism

Hi, I haven't seen too much action on this on peer review in a while. Are you still actively working on it? If not, this should be archived... is it OK to do this? I'll give you a little while to respond and then archive it :-) Good luck with getting it to FA status! - Ta bu shi da yu 00:04, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I got some help from some fellows. You can archive it. -- Zappaz 03:19, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Zap. I have been away. I will take a pass at the article. --Gary D 19:04, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

Hi again, Zap. I continue to be heavily occupied elsewhere, and I suspect it may be time I headed outta here. I took a look at the article, and it's pretty good; I don't think my editing is particularly needed. Since it has already been listed as a featured article, I'm hesitant to tinker with it. So let's leave the matter with my congratulations to you for your hard work and success in getting it listed. And best of luck and success to you (and jossi and Andries and all the crew; please pass my regards along to all of them) in general. --Gary D 03:58, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

Your presence 'round these wild frontiers will be sorely missed. Thank you for all the help and take good care. --Zappaz 05:08, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What's the deal?

Are you seriously interested in creating and editing articles, or just in playing games? I don't know if you're trying to prevent a certain group from appearing on the list of purported cults, are pushing some POV, or what. Whatever it is, please don't waste the time of other editors. I asked you if you had any objections to the exisintg sourcing and you said no. Then a day later you start in on attacking it. I don't care whether we use the queen of england as a source - but if you agree to something then please stick with it, at least for a few days. Thank you. -Willmcw 01:50, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

Your accussations are unfounded and unwarranted, and your comments about wasting time can be applied to you as well. You are wasting everybody's time by going against consensus made on that article. See my arguments at Talk:list of purported cults. --Zappaz 01:55, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

List of purpoted cults reformatting

Just a few quick notes:

You might want to take a look at Template:inuse.
The bullet on Template:sup looks a bit strange to me when on the real page (the visual flow jumps up to the <sup> and back down to the bullet).
I see a doubled Wpost on the Heaven's Gate entry (didn't want to fix right now since I assume you would be using {{inuse}} and just did not know about it).
I'm not sure about it, but I think you will sooner or later yelled at at WP:TFD for creating a template with such a generic name as Template:sup (and perhaps Template:Location too)

Other than that, great work on the cleanup.

cesarb 20:38, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for these pointers. I do not know much about templates... just my first foray... I cannot see anything on Template:inuse ????? --Zappaz 20:44, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You should see a big green box warning other editors that someone is doing a huge edit on the page and they should hold off editing until it's done.

Please don't

Please don't edit (or delete) my talk page comments. Thanks, -Willmcw 06:51, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

????? I did not tocuh your page, god forbid! Please be careful with your acussations. It is not pleasant...--Zappaz 16:43, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I was referring to my comment on the Talk:List of purported cults page that you deleted in this edit [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_purported_cults&diff=11423808&oldid=11423120). -Willmcw 20:58, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

If that is the case, then you have to sign your messages. What you wrote there was a lie. --Zappaz 21:01, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I did sign my message in the RfC summary and then you came through and stripped off the signatures. When I added a second comment I tried to follow your lead and didn't add one. Please decide whether you will allow signatures or not. What did I write that was incorrect? -Willmcw 21:58, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Enough of this silly game, Will. What you wrote there was just a lie. RfC summaries do not carry a signature and you know better than acusse another editor. I am off that article until Monday. Cheers. --Zappaz 22:41, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ah, so then why did you mention that I didn't sign if that is the norm? I'm confused. I'm also confused because you have been making accusations too, by writing about "one editor is using sources..." and "Same editor is adding..." Are you the only one who is allowed to make accusations? And what was the lie that you are now accusing me of? If you can't specify it, then I'd assume you are making it up. BTW, I did find an incorrect statement that you've added. I did not accuse you of "vandalism when challenged on the validity of sources". I wrote that deleting proper sources is vandalism. And it is. Please stop doing it. Thank you. -Willmcw 22:56, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

The statements I made were facts, not an opinion, while your comment was an outright lie (I did contribute to the article and I did not engaged in vadalims). The sources I challenged you on and clearly discussed them in the talk page. Hence, their deletion was NOT vandalism. Or is it only you with the right to v=being bold in editing? Clearly we are MIS-communicating here, probably beacuse of antagonistic POVs. Let's make an effort to get overe these. --Zappaz 01:04, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you

Hi Zappaz, thank you for voting for me in my adminship nomination, and for your kind comment. I very much appreciate your support. SlimVirgin 00:53, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

My honor and pleasure... --Zappaz 01:05, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No advocacy

HI Zappaz, take a look here [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche/Proposed_decision#Proposed_principles) This is the first LaRouche case, held back in August 2004, in which the arbcom upheld the principle of no advocacy that is outlined in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. The arbcom ruled: "Wikipedia is not a vehicle for political advocacy or propaganda, see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not which states that Wikipedia articles are not to used for "Propaganda or advocacy of any kind"." Best, SlimVirgin 23:28, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

Very useful. Thank you. --Zappaz 23:36, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of deadly cults

A vote to merge is always also a vote to redirect as we must follow the GFDL attribution rules. Merge and delete is not a valid option see Wikipedia:Guide to Votes for Deletion#Incompatible votes. - SimonP 16:37, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

I agree the current sitution isn't ideal. Your best option might be to list it at Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion- SimonP 19:47, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Zappaz

For your extremely kind comments, and your vote, in support of my RfA! Keep up the good work! All the best, El_C 00:45, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Matrixism vandal

Hi! You're one of the editors I've noticed reverting "Matrixism" linkspamming, so I thought you might be interested in voting on Wikipedia:Redirects_for_deletion#April_25. Matrixism currently redirects to New religious movement, and this has been used as a justification for linkspamming in the past. I believe an overwhelming vote to delete Matrixism will demonstrate a community consensus against the linkspamming, deterring further vandalism. Thanks for your help. — Phil Welch 19:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Hate group

Another editor, user:Jayjg, cleaned it up before I got around to it. Cheers, -Willmcw 17:18, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

PS, if you know anything about it, we're looking for a source for the assertion that a judge called the Cult Awareness Network a "hate group". Thanks, -Willmcw 06:22, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken, that was added by Ed Poor. You can ask him. --Zappaz 16:02, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, he just posted what looks a bit like a farewell notice on his talk page. There has already been some discussion in the article's talk page, so the original author was has had some notice if they watch their prior contributions. Cheers, -Willmcw 21:47, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

re talk:Guru

I am glad to see other editors helping out with this article. '--Zappaz 03:28, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Hehe...actually, I did quite a bit of work on guru years ago, but eventually got tired of arguing with Andries (check out the top of Talk:Guru/archive1) before you and Goethean even arrived. Mkweise 05:54, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Oh yeah... I have beent arguing with Andries since I started editing WP. Mostly trying to compensate against his crusade against anything that reminds him of his affiliation with SSB. I have told him many times that WP is not a replacement for therapy, and that his advocacy is only making him more frustrated... --Zappaz 15:14, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

3RR

Zappaz, I have placed a 3rr violation complaint against you on the Administrators noticeboard for your recent reverting on List of self-proclaimed deities. Although I applaud your efforts to ensure wikipedia is as objective as possible, your aggressive editing disturbs the normal process of improvement on wikipedia. --Gmaxwell 05:11, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

List of self-proclaimed deities

I wanted to start a dialog to discuss List of self-proclaimed deities. I have read all of your comments on the talk page, and I am a bit lost as to what you are trying to accomplish. It seems pointless to insert a paragraph of buffertext on jesus when we already have an article that discusses the history of the beliefs in jesus in detail. I agree that the older revisions of the article gave insufficient coverage to religions that believe everyone is a god, but the current version addresses that. Tables are an acceptable layout element on wikipedia, and the page in it's current form is attractive and readable. I haven't found your claims of protection by editors to be true at all, as I was able to add Sollog without difficulty. As an outsider who walked into the issue the only problem I saw in the article was your relentless editing and debating. --Gmaxwell 05:58, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

The article is a bloody mess. When I read it for the first time I was taken aback by the lack of rigour and the poor quality of the article. Nevertheless I have chosen to slow down and clearly describe the dispute. See Talk:List_of_self-proclaimed_deities#Process --Zappaz 15:06, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Concern

Concern. I have been at the opposite end of Willmcw on the dispute on List of purported cults, and whoever followed that dispute, may have noted that it took a considerable effort from my part to create an environment in which the article could be developed within consensus. My concern is that Willmcw has a strong bias agains new religious movements and he will need to show a high degree of restrain not to misuse admin powers once vested as an admin. Once Willmcw responds to my concern and publicly states to fellow editors his intentions when editing articles related to new religions and purported cults, I will be delighted to add my support, as I do not doubt his abilities as an editor. --Zappaz 11:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to participate in my RfA. I'm not exactly sure I know what you are asking. A general rule is that admins should avoid using the major tools (page protection, editor blocking) in content matters where they are involved. If I follow that rule then becoming an admin should not have much effect on my editing in the field of new religious movements. Naturally, I expect to use the minor admin tools (rollback, page move) when they are helpful. (Though I'm ambivalent about the rollback button. I like to explain the reverts that I feel are necessary, except in the cases of clearest mischief.) I'd be very honored (and a bit surprised) if you give your support, and I will continue to consider you a valuable contributor and collaborator whether you do so or not. List of purported cults was not easily arrived at, but I think that it is now an article of which we can all be proud. And not just the outcome - the discussion, though contentious at times, was always polite and to the point. Cheers, -Willmcw 09:04, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

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User talk:Zappaz

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Wikipedia:Peer review/Names of God in Judaism

What's the deal?

List of purpoted cults reformatting

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Thank you

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