Talk:Uruk-hai

This page has great detail of Uruk hai but not enough about what they did.

It's also based entirely around the movie - in the book, there was only one elf at Helm's deep. Unfortunately it's been long enough since I read the book that I'm not sure what other relevant differences might exist.

Origins of Uruk-hai

There are actually suggestions that Uruk-hai was just a general name for all large orcs, including a new breed of black orcs bred by Sauron, and Saruman orc-men, which have nothing in common except being larger, stronger etc. Ausir 12:16, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Quite correct. Uruk-hai simply means 'Orc folk', and the Uruks referred to the more traditional Orcs (goblins) as snaga (slave). Compare Olog-hai -- the "new and improved" trolls. Anárion 12:22, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I still feel that clarification is needed on this in terms of the movie's representation: "crossing Orcs and Goblin-men" is an oxymoron. "Goblin" is just an alternative name for "Orc" (essentially "Goblin" is a slang-term for the race properly termed Orcs, from the Quenya "Yrch"). Goblins and Orcs are the exact same race: they are all "Orcs". Thus this line from the movie is essentially saying "crossing Orcs and Orc-men". However, "Orc-men" is often used as another name of the Uruk-hai. So the entire movie-line suggests that "Saruman has created Orc-men by crossing Orcs with Orc-men", which is impossible. Indeed, there is no such thing as "Goblin-men" as a distinct race before Saruman (and Sauron) made the hybrids.

From a purely book-centered viewpoint, I fully acknowledge and accept the points made above that they are "Uruks", "Orc-folk", etc. The "squint-eyed southerner" in Bree was probably the result of some of these experiments, as were the "half-orcs" among the Ruffians in the Scouring of the Shire. Truthfully, the book is pretty vague on the exact nature of this; case-in-point, Treebeard ponders what exactly these servants of Saruman are, "are they Men he has ruined, or has he somehow *blended the races of Men and Orcs*? That would be a black evil!".

But sticking to the (admitedly simplified) "rules" of semantics within the movies, I feel that the quote by Gandalf at Rivendell in the movie was confusing to movie-goers how haven't read the books. More or less, Uruk-hai are a Human-Orc hybrid. Again, how could he have "crossed Orcs with Orc-men to create Orc-men"?. I think they didn't want to imply that Saruman was having Orcs rape Dunlending women (possible source) in order to breed Uruk-hai. I personally don't believe that's what the books implied either. I personally feel that the Uruk-hai are Orcs "magicially", or alchemy-aided into being crossed with human-characteristics; they're "test-tube creations" (this could be what happens in the scene in the movie; I made the early-Tolkien theory reference). However, on the whole I share Treebeard's confusing and haven't settled on the matter in my mind.

The reason I say all of this is because on the cast commentary on the Extended Edition DVD they all seem to believe that Uruk-hai are a hybrid of "Orcs and Goblin-men" when in truth they are a hybrid of Orcs and Men. Should the article be amended? Ricimer 15:11, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Uruks as a crossbreed of Orcs and Goblin-men (err... Orc-men?) are just Jackson's interpretation of the origin of Uruks. In the books Saruman did not "invent" them, but Uruks appear much earlier in the Tale of Years, conquering Ithilien. Personally I believe that the very fact Tolkien described some men as "goblin-men" is enough evidence that the Uruk-hai cannot have been simply Orc-human crossbreeds: Tolkien always equated the two terms goblins and Orcs. Consider the aftermath of the raid of the Rohirrim of Éomer on Saruman's troupe of Uruks that had captured Merry and Pippin: I believe the one point "goblin" is used in LotR (aside from Hobbittalk) occurs, when the Three Companions see a "goblin-head" on a spear. This was certainly an Uruk of Saruman, and yet called a goblin — therefore Uruks are Goblins, and Goblin-men already described "orkish men" or possible "mannish orcs". No matter how this comment is further interpreted, fact is that the only evidence we have about Uruks is that they were far more powerful than the "classic" Orcs, and did not mind the Sun much. Anárion 19:30, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

On the same DVD they consistently refer to the Rohirrim as the Rohan… so even though evidently very passionate about the subject, they did not have their facts quite right. Consider also the Jackson claim that Sauron had no phyiscal form during the War of the Ring despite evidence that he did.Anárion 19:32, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"No matter how this comment is further interpreted, fact is that the only evidence we have about Uruks is that they were far more powerful than the "classic" Orcs, and did not mind the Sun much." I agree fully. I am aware that the Uruks of Sauron aided the attack on Ithillien ~100 years ago (thus they showed up earlier).

And I also agree that the uninformed usage of Rohan and not Rohirrim gets annoying (although they are careful in the film itself) but more annoying is the "he can't take physical form yet" line: the Great Eye *is* his physical form. However, the production and design team commentaries show that Richard Taylor, etc. had it right. I still feel that "Goblin-men" is a poor name though. I feel all would have been better if they put in that Treebeard quote. Ricimer 19:57, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Actually, the Great Eye is not his physical form. See: Eye of Sauron. Ausir 10:16, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, yes, I know: Gollum's comment that "the Black Hand has four fingers...", etc. and Tolkien's statements all saying that he has a body of some sort. But the exact line "he isn't powerful enough to take physical form yet" is blatantly incorrect. Ricimer 23:30, 15 Aug 2004 {UTC)

Uruk-Hai doesn't mean Orc Folk

I disagree with the translation of Uruk-Hai as meaning Orc Folk. Here are my reasons:

The word uruk means Orc, while uruk-hai is only used to refer to the larger breed of orcs. If Uruk-hai ment Orc folk it would refer to all orcs and not just the larger breeds.

This fits much better with the other -Hai ending word we have, Olog-Hai. Olog-Hai refers to a new and improved breed of Olog, Trolls.

This leads me to believe that the -Hai suffix actually has an augmentative meaning that means "better" or "improved".

• No, etymolygists have quite a bit of evidence on this. It's closer to "Orc-breed" as in "Orc-thoroughbred". Plus they were often called Uruk for short as opposed to normal Orcs. Regardless, it doesn't mean just "improved".---Ricimer