Talk:Tsar

Contents

1 Old talk 2 Full Title 2.1 From data for descendants of Holy Roman Empire 2.2 From Russian Constitution of 1906 2.3 All Russias vs whole Russia 3 False impression (Emperor, and not Tsar) 4 Shar

Old talk

Re tsar vs czar: according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "The spelling with cz- is against the usage of all slavonic languages; the word was so spelt by Heberstein, Rerum Moscovit. Commentarii 1549, ... whence it passed into Western languages generally... French adopted tsar during the 19th century. This also became frequent in English towards the end of that century, having been adopted by the Times newspaper as the most suitable English spelling."

It (the OED) also defines tsar, czar as "Romanised spellings of Russian tsari."

This seems to pretty comprehensively support tsar as the correct usage. Graham Chapman

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Many thanks for that, Graham: I've taken out a small bit (it's car in Polish), and I hope you don't mind my adding it to the "Czar" entry. User:David Parker.

OK. I'm not a linguist, I relied on the OED for the information. They provide many examples, including Polish:

• tsar, tsari - Russian
• tsisari - 11th Century Russian, from Old Slavonic (at least I think that's what their abbreviation means) tsesari
• tsar - Bulgarian
• tsar - Serbian
• car - Polish, but they add the note =tsar, c in the Roman Slavonic orthography = Tse in Cyrillic, being pronounced ts or German z.

That is their argument for saying that Herberstein was wrong, and why English and French have corrected themselves since the 19th century. I included the sentence about all slavonic languages using ts (which I got from OED) because I wanted to show why English got it wrong to start with from 16 - 19th centuries, but then adopted the ts spelling.

However, as I said, I'm not a linguist, so I'm not in a position to say any more. Perhaps someone who is a linguist could take it a little further. Graham Chapman

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Hi Graham. I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said, I just removed one sentence because it might be confusing to people, as below:

However this contrasts with the ts spelling in all slavonic languages; for example, the English tsar comes from the Russian tsari.

The problem with "the ts spelling in all slavonic languages" is not only the Polish exception, but more fundamentally that those countries which had tsars used only the cyrillic script until more recent times, hence the whole confusion over "czar" (also properly pronounced "tsar") as a transliteration: to say that "tsar" is the Slavonic form is a bit of a circular argument, because it's only the Slavic form since modern transliteration from the cyrillic original renders it as the correct form.

I hope I've resolved this problem by putting the word's evolution in an earlier paragraph: if you think I've missed something, by all means feel free to correct it. Cheers, User:David Parker

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David, you have resolved the problem excellently. I have only made minor changes and haven't changed the content at all because I think it is good. I capitalised Rerum Moscvovit. Commentarii because my references also do that (undo it if you think I'm wrong), and made a link of it because I think historically it is worth an article in itself. Thanks for your patient efforts. Graham Chapman

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I was just indulging my preference for minimal capitalisation (I tend to think the italics suffice), but I'm happy to leave it as you prefer: a fine tribute to collective wikipedianship. User:David Parker

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Not that it matters, but I spotted the error in my original changes. I said:

contrasts with the ts spelling in all slavonic languages

but the OED extract I based it on said:

The spelling with cz is against the usage of all slavonic languages

Note they say usage, I said spelling. My mistake made my sentence quite misleading. The OED also appears to say that where the Romanised form of the word is tsar or its derivates, it is pronounced 'ts' or German 'z'. The Polish car is spelt car but (the OED says, correct me, Polish speakers) is pronounced tsar.

Darn tricky stuff, eytmology and linguistics. I'll have to be more careful in future. Graham Chapman

I don't speak Polish, but I believe that czar would be pronounced shar. -Smack 06:52 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Almost there:-) It is pronounced char Mikkalai 00:03, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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I wouldn't worry, "spelling" could be substituted perfectly correctly for "usage" in the OED comment; it's all a useful reminder of how very recent regular romanisation from cyrillic is (I'm still not sure of Ekaterinburg/Yekaterinburg). Polish car is indeed pronounced "tsar" - see szopen's earlier correction to me at my talk (third chunk from the bottom). Thanks for resolving this question, which had been bugging a few of us lately (see Talk:Czar). Oh, and a belated welcome from me too. - DP

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Webster's Collegiate Dictionary of the American Language (1961 Ed.) spells it: czar. user:H.J.

If that means anything, it most likely means that they found more people spelling it that way, in whatever body of written material they draw from. This has nothing to do with what comes closer to the Russian pronunciation. Vicki Rosenzweig

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Interesting article. Well Done. One question - often the term 'tsarevich' was applied in textbooks to the son of Nicholas II as indicating 'Crown Prince'. You speak of it being the title of a son. Was 'tsarevich' a title giving to all sons of the Tsar, or was it only possessed by the heir? If possessed by all princes, was there another term used to indicate the heir apparent? JTD 01:48 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

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Tsarevitch is the heir - other sons would be Grand Duke [name] - e.g. Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovitch

PMelvilleAustin 13:58 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)

While tsarevitch formally is the title of the heir only, informally (at least in Serbia) it is used for any child, it could be used in plural etc. Nikola 08:36, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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I think this article could use some info on czar/tsar as an (informal?) title given to political appointees in some non-Russian countries. E.g. a Privacy Czar, Drug Czar, etc. -- stewacide

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Not to mention the oh so popular, Porn Czar right?

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I think that the corrections by the anonymous user 145.253.32.3 are not quite right. Even if it is true that the word somehow has been loaned from Turkish languages, there it was loaned from Old Russian. And the origin of the word anyway is the name "Caesar".

Let me present information from the authoritative Max Vasmer's etymological dictionary of Russian language.

The Russian word царь (tsar) is a title adopted by Ivan IV.

Cognates in other Slavic languages: Ukrainian цар (tsar), Old Russian цьсарь (tsisari) referring to the Byzantian Emperor (11th century), Old Russian царь (tsari) (ruler, lord; Tatar khan (1267 for the last time)), Bulgarian цар as the title of Old Bulgarian rulers beginning from the tsar Simeon (917), Serbo-Croatian цар/car (tsar).

Later loans from Russian are Czech car (tsar) and Polish car (tsar).

The source of these forms is the form *cěsarь (tsesari): Old Russian cěsarь (tsesari), Old Slavonic cěsarь (tsesari) (counterpart of Greek βασιλεύς (basileus 'king') and κύριος (kyrios 'lord'), Serbo-Croatian цесар/cesar (tsesar; 'emperor'), Slovenian cesar, Czech císař, Slovak cisár, Polish cesarz.

This form derives from Latin Caesar via Gothic Káisar.

The ending has been secondarily perceived as the suffix -arь.

Less probable is a direct loan from Latin Caesar.

The Latin word has no counterpart in Romanian and in Albanian.

The shortening process cěsarь > cьsarь has parallels in other similar cases and titles, for instance English king, Swedish kung. Andres 12:23, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Why then the title first was used by Tatars and then borrowed by Muscovy rulers? How tatars became Tsars?

Probably Tatars loaned that word from Old Russian or Old Bulgarian. If we assume that this wasn't the case, then what is the provenience of the word?

I don't deny that Tatar khans were called tsars by Eastern Slavs before there were any Russian emperor-tsars. But it does not follow that there was no word tsar in old Russian before their contsct with Tatars. On the other hand, in Bulgaria, kings were called Tsars long before Tatars. Andres 01:01, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that all references to Tatar and even Bulgarian leaders as tsars originate from manuscrips written much later than times described in them.

For example, Boris I of Bulgaria is also called tsar in many texts, whreas it is firmly known that for the most of his reign he was khan, and after baptism he was called 'prince'.

A pretty convincing etymology of the word 'tsar' is known to me, based on authentic documents, rather than on guesswork (yes, it is from 'caesar'). I will try to do some supporting research and then put it in here.Mikkalai 01:28, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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>> (also sometimes spelt Czar in English borrowed from Hungarian) <<

From Hungarian? The Hungarian for tsar is császár (pronounced approximately chassar). Let's just face it that "czar" is simply an invented English spelling that has stuck in some quarters. -- 81.129.174.49 20:22, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The Hungarian császár is a "native" derivation from "Caesar", *not* the translation of "Tsar". Czar was invented for "tsar" by an Austrian guy, not by an Englishman. Mikkalai 20:57, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Full Title

An anon put the following:

Bozhiyeyu Milostiyu, Imperator i Samodyerzhets Vserossiysky (By the Grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of All Russia, of Moscow, Kiew, Wladimir, Novogorod, Czar of Cazan, Czar of Astracan, Czar of Siberia, Czar of the Chersonese of Tauria, Lord of Plescou, and Grand Duke of Smolensko, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia and of Finlande, Duke of Estonia, of Livonie, of Courland and Semigalle, of Samogitia, Carelia, Twer, Jugoria, Permia, Vyatka, Bulgaria and of others: Lord and Grand Duke of Novgorod inferior, of Chernigovia, Resan, Polozk, Rostow, Jaroslaw, White Osoria, Udoria, Obdoria, Condinia, Witepsk, Mstislaw, Ruler of the North Coast, Lord of Iveria, of Cartalinia, Grusinie and of Cabardinia, Prince Heir and Sovereign of Princes of Chercessia, Gorsky and others; Heir of Norway, Duke of Slesvig-Hollstein, of Stormaria and of Ditmarsen, Count of Oldenburg and Delmenhorst &c. &c.)

I am wondering where did he get it from; plenty of typos.

From data for descendants of Holy Roman Empire

The Ruling Houses & Rulers in the Holy Roman Empire (http://www.geocities.com/vrozn/Houses.html) says:

Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov/ Russia} @

(until 1773 Imperial Estate and Dukes of Holstein-Gottorp.

1762-1762 and 1796-1917 Emperors of Russia.

1796-1807, 1813-1816 immediate Lords of Jever)

(Emperors of Russia, 1809 Grand Prince of Finland,

1815 Kings of Poland)

1762-1777(Imperial Crown Prince, Throne heir & Grand Prince of the whole of Russia [Kaiserl. Kronprinz, Thronfolger und Grossfürst aller Reussen], Heir in Norway, Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stornmarn, Dithmarschen, Count of Oldenburg & Delmenhorst)

1777-1796 (Imperial Crown Prince, Throne heir & Grand Prince of the whole of Russia, Heir in Norway, Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stornmarn, Dithmarschen, Oldenburg)

1796-1801(Emperor & Autocrat of the whole of Russia, of Moscow, Kiev, Wladimir, Novgorod, Czar/Tsar of Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberia, Tauric Chersonese, Lord[Gosudar] of Pskov & Grand Prince[Velikiy Kniaz] of Smolensk, Lithuania, Wolyn, Podolia, Prince[Kniaz] of Estonia, Livonia, Courland & Semigalia, Samogitia[Zhemaytia, Zhmud], Karelia, Tver, Ugra, Perm, Viatka, Bulgaria & other countries, Lord and Grand Prince of Novgorod of the Lower Lands, of Chernigov, Riazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Belozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Condia, Vitebsk, Mstislavl and of all the Northern Countries, Sovereign & Lord of the Land of Iveria, of the Czars of Kartly & Georgia, of the Land of Kabarda, of the Princes of the Cherkasses & the Mountaineers, & Hereditary Lord & Owner of the other lands, Heir in Norway, Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stornmarn, Dithmarschen & Oldenburg etc., Lord of Jever)

1801-1808(Emperor & Autocrat of the whole of Russia, of Moscow, Kiev, Wladimir, Novgorod, Czar of Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberia, Tauric Chersonese, Lord of Pskov & Grand Prince of Smolensk, Lithuania, Wolyn, Podolia, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland & Semigalia, Samogitia, Karelia, Tver, Ugra, Perm, Viatka, Bulgaria & other countries, Lord and Grand Prince of Novgorod of the Lower Lands, of Chernigov, Riazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Belozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Condia, Vitebsk, Mstislavl and of all the Northern Countries, Sovereign & Lord of the Lands of Iveria, Kartly,Georgia, Kabarda, of the Princes of the Cherkasses & the Mountaineers, & Hereditary Lord & Owner of the other lands, Heir in Norway, Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stornmarn, Dithmarschen & Oldenburg etc., Lord of Jever)

1808-1815 (Emperor & Autocrat of the whole of Russia, of Moscow, Kiev, Wladimir, Novgorod, Czar of Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberia, Tauric Chersonese, Lord of Pskov & Grand Prince of Smolensk, Lithuania, Wolyn, Podolia, Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland & Semigalia, Bialystok, Samogitia, Karelia, Tver, Ugra, Perm, Viatka, Bulgaria & other countries, Lord and Grand Prince of Novgorod of the Lower Lands, of Chernigov, Riazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Belozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Condia, Vitebsk, Mstislavl and of all the Northern Countries, Sovereign & Lord of the Lands of Iveria, Kartly,Georgia, Kabarda, of the Princes of the Cherkasses & the Mountaineers, & Hereditary Lord & Owner of the other lands, Heir in Norway, Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stornmarn, Dithmarschen & Oldenburg etc.)

1815 (Emperor & Autocrat of the whole of Russia, of Moscow, Kiev, Wladimir, Novgorod, Czar of Kazan, Astrakhan, Poland, Siberia, Tauric Chersonese, Lord of Pskov & Grand Prince of Smolensk, Lithuania, Wolyn, Podolia, Finland, Prince of Estland, Livland, Courland & Semigalia, Samogitia, Bialystok, Karelia, Tver, Ugra, Perm, Viatka, Bulgaria & other countries, Lord and Grand Prince of Novgorod of the Lower Lands, of Chernigov, Riazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Belozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Condia, Vitebsk, Mstislavl and of all the Northern Countries, Sovereign & Lord of the Lands of Iveria, Kartly, Georgia & Kabarda, of the Princes of the Cherkasses & the Mountaineers, Hereditary Lord & Owner of the other lands, Heir in Norway, Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stornmarn, Dithmarschen and Oldenburg)

[Holstein] 1773(- )(Holstein-Glückstadt/Denmark)

[Jever] 1796(+ ), 1807(- )(Holland), ^ (+ ), 1818(- )(Oldenburg)

Paul (I) (1754-1801) [1762-1773, 1796-1801]

// 1762-1773 Duke of Holstein-Gottorp

// 1796-1801 Lord of Jever

// 1796-1801 Emperor of Russia

// 1798-1801 Grand Master of the St. John Order

Alexander (I) (1777-1825) [1801-1807, 1813-1818]

// 1801-1807, 1813-1818 Lord of Jever

// 1801-1825 Emperor of Russia

From Russian Constitution of 1906

http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Const.html says:

Extracts from the Russian Constitution of April 23, 1906 [excerpted from Readings in Modern European History, James Harvey Robinson and Charles Beard, eds., vol. 2 (Boston:Ginn and Company, 1908), pp. 378-381]

ART. 59. The full title of His Imperial Majesty is as follows: We, ------ by the grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, Tsar of Kasan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Tauric Khersones, Tsar of Grusia, Lord of Pskov, and Grand Duke of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland, Prince of Esthonia, Livonia, Courland and Semgallia, Samogitia, Bielostok, Korelia, Tver, Jugor, Perm, Vyatka, Bulgaria, and other territories; Lord and Grand Duke of Novgorod, Chernigov; Ruler of Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Jaroslav, Bielozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, Vitebsk, Mstislav, and all northern territories ; Ruler of Iveria, Kartalinia, and the Kabardinian lands and Armenian territories - hereditary Ruler and Lord of the Tcherkess and Mountain Princes and others; Lord of Turkestan, Heir to the throne of Norway, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stormarn, Ditmarsch, Oldenburg, and so forth, and so forth, and so forth.

• Obdoria: Obdorsk is Salekhard today.
• Udoria?
• Kondia?

All Russias vs whole Russia

Wouldn't Самодержец Всероссийский be better translated as "autocrat pan-Russian"?

No. First, there is a tradition. Second, "All Russias" vs. "Whole Russia" issue. Mikkalai 18:22, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but wasn't Tsar's intention exactly that the title could mean both? Nikola 03:28, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"All the Russias" meaning is largely misleading, provided that there's no explanation what the multiple Russias it refers to. "Всероссийский" is simply "all-Russian" or "whole-Russian"; let's use either until the article is expanded with pre-Empire title which does mention "Great, White and Lesser Russias" (essentially Russia, Belarus and Ukraine). No point to artifically implement a meaning that is simply undistinguishable in Russian language title. DmitryKo 18:46, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is the tradition of English language usage, provided by native English speaking editors, and has nothing to do with logic. Mikkalai 21:41, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

False impression (Emperor, and not Tsar)

Given that the official principal title of Russia's monarchs between 1721 and 1917 was not Tsar, but Emperor (different in Russian), shouldn't the distinction be noted in this article? Also, should we really have the "Russian tsars" category, when in fact these people largely used the title "Emperor." The tsar title really only came back into fashion in Russia during Nicholas II's archaizing reign, and even then he was still officially Emperor rather than Tsar. The term "Tsar" seems to have been more used in the west than in Russia itself. What do others think? john k 05:12, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In fact, Tsar never fell out of use, and common people always preferred it. — Monedula 07:50, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, that addresses one point. But not most of them. Elites in Russia, as far as I know, generally used "Emperor", and this term was preferred by the Emperors prior to Nicholas II. john k 23:05, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(It always amazed me how "democrats" of all over the world, including the very Land of Liberty, lay low before the looks and says of "elite", "aristocracy" &c,&c.)

In papers and in official or simply solemn speech, it was "Emperor", but in vernacular "tsar" was far from uncommon. BTW, to a Russian ear, "tsar" sounds no less important than "Emperor". Gor example a synonym for "God" is "Sky Tsar" ("tsar nebesny")(and never "Sky Emperor"). Mikkalai 00:31, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As for "archaizing", where did you pick that? It was rather "de-Germanizing"; the idea of "Russness" (Autocracy, Orthodoxy, and National Character) was put forth after a long chain of emperors who spoke German better than Russian. Mikkalai 00:42, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, except the unnecessary swipe at me to begin with. Elizabeth II is commonly referred to as "Queen of England" in the vernacular. This remains incorrect. Similarly, to call anyone from Peter I on "Tsar of Russia" may have been common (and was used by Nicholas II as part of an archaizing or de-Germanizing, or whatever, movement), but it was just as incorrect - Tsar was used as a lesser title for lesser territories such as Poland, Kazan, Astrakhan, and so forth. All I have said is that this ought to be made clear in the article (which surely you cannot object to), and that I think the category header ought to be changed, so that Category:Russian tsars, or some such, refers to Tsars between 1547 and 1721, and Category:Russian emperors refers to rulers between 1721 and 1917. john k 07:22, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Your point about vernacular is convincing. The rest is agreed as well. Formal issues, e.g., categories, should be kept formal. Mikkalai 16:53, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm rather stunned that John at all has to make this argument. I think it's rather self-evident. The article and the categories must explain, set the record right and be correct. Sloppy usage in contemporary English is no excuse for a wikipedia with encyclopedic ambitions. (If someone wonders, the Finns did of course call the Emperor for the Emperor, although they officially were Emperors of Russia and Grand Dukes of Finland, regardless of in Swedish or Finnish tongue.) /Tuomas 13:12, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There is nothing stunning in carrying on a discussion. It is questionable, whether the English usage is sloppy or simply "English". BTW, your Finnish example serves you wrong: Since they called him "emperor", the usage was incorrect, since he was "duke" for them. Mikkalai 16:53, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

By using the "greater" of the ruler's titles, one does not only display respect, but also an implicit acceptance of one's belonging in the greater unit, i.e. the empire. /Tuomas 00:07, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In terms of Finland, it's not necessarily incorrect, is it? In Canada, for instance, Elizabeth II is referred to as "Elizabeth II of the UK", even though she is Queen of Canada, except when she is actually in Canada. So, similarly, it might be the Emperor, except when he was in Finland, when he was the Grand Duke. But I know nothing of this, so can't comment if this is correct or not. john k 19:32, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So, as you all say, correctness depends on the context, and hence there might be no reason to say that "tsar" usage is incorrect. Do we really always use full formal specification, like in "George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron"? Mikkalai 20:01, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I don't disagree. To use "Tsar" informally is fine. "The Tsar did this". But, for instance, in the openings to articles, we should say that Alexander II was "Emperor of Russia" (although that, too, is not the precise title, of course), rather than "Tsar of Russia", because in such contexts we are trying to be precise. We should do the same for the category. As to Byron, calling a Baron Byron "Lord Byron" is actually a completely correct short hand usage, just as it is appropriate to call me "Mr. Kenney," although my full name is John Lowenstein Kenney. The case of Tsar is different - while commonly used, it is technically incorrect, since "Tsar" was a lesser title of the Russian Emperors in the 18th and 19th centuries. That's quite a different situation. But I would certainly agree that there is no problem using "Tsar" in article text. john k 07:18, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Shar

REcently an anon added this etymology: it is more likely to be derived from the old East Iranian title Shar, which coresponds with the East Iranian origin of the Bulgarians, the first users of the title in Europe. It is either a prank or a fantasy of those who don't know bulgarian history: old Bulgarian rulers were khans, not sultans, beys, shars (the latter could be a version of spelling of shah, i.e., the native word actually ends in a long vowel, and R or H are artifacts of English transcription, but I've never heard it as applied to Iranian rulers. It was in use by Kurds AFAIK, but I am not that big an iranist. Mikkalai 23:17, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)