Talk:T-V distinction
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ó"Thee" and "thou" are still used in some English dialects. Is it worth mentioning these? -- user:Heron
- Which dialects? --Tb 04:31, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Someone should add a reference to Monty Python's Holy Grail, given the discussion of Swedish Ni (which is, after all, where the Knights Who Say Ni get their humor from). --Tb 04:31, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I rememeber hearing back in my high school German class that going from the formal to informal form was a significant milestone in romantic relationships. I was thinking maybe this should be added to the article, especially if it applies to other languages. I also recall that there was a special verb for the transition, but it may have just been duzen --Ckape 21:33, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- The romantic movment thought that the Sie/ Ihr (which was also used in that time like in french) was a latin introduction and thous regarded inferior. They thought it is more GERMAN if you use Du (a kind of nationalism). But finally that didn't last, today Du/ Sie are still in use.
Maybe there should be a reference on the use of "vos" in some Spanish-speaking countries (where it replaces "tú"), as well as the historical use of "vos" (a formal use that was replaced by "vuestra merced" and later on by "usted"). Sabbut 22:04, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Isn't y'all used as an informal second person plural pronoun in English? Kpalion 12:43, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Y'all is generally considered slang, but could conceivably be used either in a familiar or a formal setting. Matt gies 06:17, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The table doesn't appear (to me) to be in any sort of order. Perhaps it would be appropriate to order it alphabetically?
In some parts of Newfoundland, Canada people have re-analysed "ye" as the second person plural and treat "you" as being expressly singular. This is still being transmitted to young people - I remember a friend of mine, a young university student in St. John's, he related to me that the first time he left the province on a trip, for a youth group, people would react strangely when he said "ye" and finally someone asked, "what are you saying?" And he said, "ye, the plural of you" like she was asking a stupid question, until it dawned on him that this was an unexpected regionalism.
To my knowledge this anecdote actually doesn't have any relevance to the present discussion, however, because while you/ye expresses a singular/plural distinction, it does not express a T-V distinction - it is ungrammatical in these dialects to refer to a singular person as "ye", as I understand it, and referring to a single person as "ye" never conveys distance or respect distinct from "you".
--Steve D 14:11, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The information on T-V distinctions in Portuguese needs some clarification:
(1) "Vós" is archaic, both in Brazil AND in Portugal; it is used only in religious services (e.g. to address God) or in very formal literary language.
(2) "Tu" is widely used in Portugal as the informal 2nd person singular form of address. In Brazil, "tu" is used only in poetry/music, or in regional varieties of the language (e.g., "gaúcho"), in the latter case often with the incorrect verb conjugation (e.g. "tu falou" instead of the standard "tu falaste"). Otherwise, "você" followed by the appropriate 3rd person verb form is the standard form of saying "you" in almost all situations in Brazil and, in the case of formal address (when talking to a stranger for example) in Portugal. To make things more complicated, one can also say "you (sing.)" in Portuguese using the construction "o senhor/ a senhora" (e.g. "A senhora precisa de ajuda ? ", lit. "The lady needs help?"). Generally, this form of address is reserved both in Brazil and in Portugal to formal situations, e.g. to address someone who is much older than you (in Brazil, sometimes to address your parents) or to talk to someone who is hierarchically superior to you like your boss, a public authority, or, in the case of students, sometimes your teachers or professors. In Portugal specifically and, to lesser extent, in some parts of Brazil (e.g. the Northeast), in addition to "o senhor/a senhora", there is a large array of similar expressions that may also mean "you (formal, sing.)", e.g. "o pai"/"a mãe" when addressing your parents; "o engenheiro"/"o doutor" when addressing someone who has those respective titles; "a menina" when addressing a young lady, etc...
(3) Since "vós" is archaic, "vocês" is now the quasi-universal way of saying "you (pl.)" in both European and Brazilian Portuguese. Otherwise, "os senhores/as senhoras" is used instead of "vocês", more or less in the same context in which "o senhor/a senhora" would be used instead of "você".
(4) Since "você" requires third person verb forms, it is somewhat natural that it should be replaced by third person oblique pronouns ("o"/"a" or "lhe") when used respectively as a direct or indirect object. That is actually the rule in standard Portuguese and the most common usage in Portugal. If you watched for example the British movie "Love Actually", you might recall that Sr. Barros, Aurélia's father, addresses Jamie (Colin Firth), by "você" (e.g. "Você quer casar com a minha filha ?") and, at same point, when Jamie asks Sr. Barros to take him to the restaurant where Aurélia works, he replies: "Levo-o lá" ("I will take you there"). That construction however, although perfectly correct in standard Portuguese, sounds odd to Brazilians who would prefer, in that context, to say "Eu levo o senhor lá". On the other hand, in informal address ,when talking to a friend or an equal addressed by "você", Brazilians would normally say "Eu levo você lá" or "Eu te levo lá". The latter construction with "te", normally the oblique pronoun associated with "tu", reveals one interesting contrast between standard Portuguese and spoken (southeastern) Brazilian Portuguese, i.e. the use of "te" with "você" instead of "o" or "lhe" (e.g. Braz. "Você trouxe aquele casaco que eu te dei no Natal ?" = standard Port. " Trouxeste aquele casaco que te dei no Natal ?" or "Você trouxe aquele casaco que (eu) lhe dei no Natal ?"). The você/te usage, although incorrect according to "school grammar" is actually VERY common both in Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, and is widely accepted in colloquial language among the educated middle class. As far as I can tell, the only situation when Brazilians routinely use the standard "o" for "você" in the spoken language is when "o" follows an infinitive and changes to "-lo", e.g. "Prazer em conhecê-lo" (="Nice to meet you") or "Não preciso lembrá-lo da importância dessa reunião" (="I don't have/need to remind you of the importance of this meeting").
Nouns, not adverbs
The Finnish words "sinuttelu" and "teitittely" are nouns, not adverbs. They are derived directly from the corresponding verbs, thanks to the incredibly flexible word derivation scheme of the Finnish language. — JIP | Talk 15:23, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Norwegian formal "De"
I am a native Norwegian speaker, and I noticed that "De" was listed as formal 2.person singular in Norwegian. This should really be marked as archaic. I have never heard anybody use it in normal speech. In newer written Norwegian I've only seen it where the author/translator is obviously not a native speaker or it’s deliberately used to sound archaic. Encountering the word “De/Dere” in singular in Norwegian gives me exactly the same associations as “thou/thee” in English.
- Please mark it as archaic. Are they always capitalized like the English I? - TAKASUGI Shinji 00:35, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)
More on Portuguese
Also for Portuguese, there are a few dialectiual/sociolectual/regional/whatever pronouns that are pretty widely spread, but sound poor or non-standard, or what have you. I've heard 'vossemecê' even from middle class brazilians who were trying to suck up to someone. I understand that it's used amongst the very poor in some regions. I know 'Vossa Exelência' is used from time to time, but sounds a little stale, or whatever. I've never been to Portugal, but I've noticed in a few novels frases like 'o tio' 'o professor' and countless others used as prounouns, but I'm not sure if these are really that common, or what situation would call for them, or what. I've been curious about those odd pronouns for a while, but it seems like I get a different answear out of everybody I ask. Kyle543 03:52, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)