Talk:Switzerland

An event mentioned in this article is a August 1 selected anniversary

Archive 1 | Archive 2 (attempt to discuss spelling of Swiss cantons)

International co-operation

I think the fact that Switzerland didn't become a member of the UN until 2002 says a lot about the country not wanting to commit itself. One should consider changing the formulation "The country has a strong tradition of political and military neutrality, but also of international co-operation, as it is home to many international organizations."

well, it's in the UN now. But "international cooperation" could indeed be further specified. dab 17:07, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

don't omit that Switzerland is not yet a member of the European Union!

The above line was written by User:212.254.98.175. I reverted your changes to Switzerland as most of the points, while not wrong, are already covered in the article or in sub-articles. For example Switzerland#Economy mentions the EU aspect, while the main article Economy of Switzerland lists its industries: machinery, chemicals, watches, textiles, precision instruments. Furthermore I disagree that most speak English, from my recent first hand experience. Many young urban Swiss may speak English, but not the older Swiss and those outside the main centres. -Wikibob | Talk 01:31, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)

agree. we don't need to repeat the average canton size either. It may be worth noting that english plays an increasingly important role, particularly in urban centers, that even threatens traditional swiss multi-lingualism (i.e. young french & german speakers are increasingly likely to communicate in english rather than in either french or german). Switzerland's insularity in the EU however can well be mentioned, as it's becoming the primary focus of questions of external policy. The Economy section has "although Sw is not pursuing membership", as it were presupposing the reader knows it's not a member. But "not yet" implies future membership, which is of course controversial. dab 07:43, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

English might play an increasingly important role but is far from worth mentioning in an encyclopedia as of today. Currently it's nothing else but a fancy fashion quirk. How many of those individuals prefering to speak in English are there really? I don't know any and lived there long enough to have noticed a worth mentioning tendency such as this. Arsenio 19:17, 6 Dec 2004 (MET)

I suppose what dab meant is that English is the foreign language of choice. Have a bunch of French, Italian, and German speaking Swiss meet and you'll find that many try English if their mother tongue doesn't work. And that's pretty well established.Rl 21:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's a global phaenomen, not a swiss one. Or? Arsenio 15:03, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)

National Motto

From the article: "National motto: One for all, all for one". Could you provide us with a source for this other than Alexandre Dumas? -- User:Docu

A quick search on admin.ch yields Allocution de Madame Ruth Dreifuss présidente de la Confédération à l'occasion de la Fête nationale (http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/cf/alloc/19990801.html) (also available in German and Italian) where Un pour tous, tous pour un is indeed mentioned as the national motto. Schutz 23:37, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'm swiss, and I've never heard of it. Switzerland has no official national motto. Mme Dreifuss was pulling that out of her sleeve, it is Dumas. If there is anything that rings like a national motto, it would be "In the name of God, amen". This was the preamble of the Letter of Alliance, which was taken over to the constitution of 1848, and could not be kept out of the new constitution of 2000. It has attained sort of a proverbial ring, but it's not an official *motto* as such. dab 08:54, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've heard it before reading Ruth Dreifuss' speech on the web, so I doubt she made it up, but I can't find any other reference to it. I'll try to find something, maybe on http://www.swisshelpdesk.org/. Schutz 09:50, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Of course she didn't make it up. Alexandre Dumas did. It's a well-known phrase speech-makers are fond of, nothing more. — that said, some googling convinced me that it seems to be associated with the state somehow in the french-speaking part of Switzerland. eg.: http://www.distinction.ch/LD.Champignac/LD.Champignac.candid01.html : notre devise nationale, "Un pour tous, tous pour un !" — I assure you that, as a suisse alemanique, I have never heard of it. And even the french version seems to be only anecdotal, judging from the google results. dab 10:46, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the evidence is pretty sparse; I'm going to send a few emails to some addresses @admin.ch, we'll see if they can find a reference. In the meantime, we can continue to assume that there is no official motto. Schutz 11:01, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ok, the question is settled, thanks to http://www.swisshelpdesk.org (very quick, impressive and accurate service !). Short answer: UNUS PRO OMNIBUS OMNES PRO UNO is the official motto, which can be translated in French as described above and in German Einer für alle, alle für Einen. For a justification, look at the (beautiful) pictures of the dome at http://www.parlament.ch/e/homepage/in-fotografien.htm, in particular

: the motto is there, in Latin, in the middle. In addition, I received a (very quick as well) answer from someone from @admin.ch saying the same thing (they refer to the Bundeshauskuppel as well, but will send me a more complete answer). I'll update the article (Latin or English or both ?) shortly if everyone is happy. Schutz 14:43, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Maybe Latin+French+German+English, following the example of Belgium? Schutz 14:49, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I stand corrected. I have seen the inscription before, but I was not aware that it is anything like an official motto. good job! (to my excuse, there is not a single hit from admin.ch (http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.admin.ch+%22unus+pro+omnibus%22&btnG=Search)!)dab 14:57, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Truth be told I am dumbfounded, too. I think the motto warrants a paragraph of explanation. Otherwise I'm afraid we'll keep having people "fixing" it.Rl 17:36, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Agreed, especially since I found a little bit of background material by googling using the latin motto (e.g. http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/mythen/english/schweiz.html ), and I'm still waiting for a more detailed answer from Bern. Where do you think it should go ? A new section ? Schutz 23:33, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

My preferred solution would be to note how and when the motto was adopted, and put that note into History.Rl 07:11, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Will wait until I get more info and work on that. Thanks. Schutz 07:20, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

ah, but I suggest the latin is enough. otherwise, we'd need to give the motto in all four official languages, which would be over the top for something so obscure (only the romands seeming to have any awareness of it at all) dab 20:14, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'd rather have no motto at all, but now that we're stuck with it, it would seem rather elitist to only quote the Latin version. At least an English translation in parentheses or something like that seems appropriate. FWIW, it turns out the motto may actually be pretty well known with the folks who went to school not too long after WW II, no matter what language.Rl 21:23, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Have a look at the changes I made a few hours ago; I added the latin, German, French and English version. Any Italian or Romansh speaker around ? Schutz 23:33, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The point made by dab was that there may be too many language versions already, not too few.Rl 07:11, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I understand that; I made the modifications so that we can see what it looks like. Personaly, I don't mind the multiple translations, but I can understand if a majority of people prefer to have only latin+English translation. Schutz 07:20, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

quite - I meant, of course, latin + english translation. NPOV would dictate to give a translation in either all four national languages, or in none at all, but I doubt that anyone will really care about it. The Bundeshaus inscription is, after all, in latin precisely to avoid having to choose either french or german. dab 10:30, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Interesting reading, though I'm not quite convinced by [1] (http://www.swisshelpdesk.org) mentionned above, but, before debating this further, I supppose I should be writing an article about the "Federal Palace". -- User:Docu

Spelling

I have moved the discussion on the spelling of Swiss cantons into an /Archive 2. The vote is called off. I didn't think it makes sense to vote since apparently not many seemed to be involved enough.

As a result of the discussion/vote I suggest we use the following spellings:

Appenzell Innerrhoden, Appenzell Ausserrhoden, Aargau, Basel Stadt, Basel Landschaft, Bern, Fribourg, Geneva, Glarus, Graubünden, Jura, Lucerne, Neuchâtel, Nidwalden, Obwalden, Schaffhausen, Schwyz, Solothurn, St. Gallen, Thurgau, Ticino, Uri, Valais, Vaud, Zug, Zürich

That is the official names in the main language spoken in the respective canton, except for Geneva and Lucerne where there is a very common English spelling (in accordance with the MoS.

Kokiri 18:23, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

For all of those, do remember to create a redirect page which uses no accents or other characters which are not present on an English keyboard. Most native English speakers are unlikely to type a letter which isn't on their keyboard, even if it is possible to type it once you know how. What you've suggested seems to fit well with the way history articles are written, using the name of the place at the time and place of the events and referencing a later or earlier name if useful. Jamesday 03:17, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Following the previous discussion, I suggest to move the Zurich-article back to where it used to be: at Zurich. -- User:Docu

Agreed. It's not currently at a location with significant use by native English speakers. Should continue to give the correct local version in the first paragraph, of course. Jamesday 11:48, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

There is now a vote at: Talk:Zurich -- User:Docu

External links

Why the distinction between official links and other links? Switzerland-in-sight for example is produced by an official body of the government... I suggest we get rid of the two subheadings, unless somebody convinces me otherwise. Kokiri 21:57, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The distinction somehow came with the template, .. two other links are also somehow official. Besides, I agree with you. -- User:Docu

RSF linkage

I have removed the following external link:

World-wide press freedom index (http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=8247) Rank 12 out of 166 countries (4 way tie)

This, because it isn't really about Switzerland. This link should go into an article on Press Freedom, or, if there was a paragraph on that in the article on Switzerland. Kokiri 21:02, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. I've replaced it with something better now (as in many other articles). --Shallot 18:47, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Google links

The following two links were recently added:

Google Switzerland (http://www.google.ch) - regional Google version
search.ch (http://www.search.ch) - regional search engine and phonebook search.ch

as I'm not convinced that they add much to the topic. -- User:Docu

Lake's name

Lake Geneva official name is "Lake Léman", should it bear its official name on the map? Because border line cuts lake in two between Switzerland and France, Lake Léman is more "politically correct".

I did not see on your map Lake Neuchâtel, which is the bigger lake in surface that is enterely in Switzerland!

Christian, from La Chaux-de-Fonds, Switzerland

The map is probably from the CIA World Factbook, if there is a better one we are allowed to used, it might be good thing to change it. -- User:Docu

Strangely enough the lake is commonly called Lake Geneva in English. This despite Lac Léman or even Le Léman is used in the region. There's another case like this: Lake Constance which is called Bodensee in the region. The Manual of Style suggests we use the English names.

This convention on Wikipedia is contrary to some ideas of politically correct which prefer the use of the local word. Kokiri 21:02, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Military

Military_of_Switzerland#Discussion could use some work. .. User:Docu

{msg:EFTA}

European Free Trade Association

Iceland | Liechtenstein | Norway | Switzerland

Countries of the world | Europe | European Economic Area | Council of Europe

The above frame in its current version suggest that Switzerland is part of the [EEA]. Instead of listing EEA, it might be more useful to list the EU directly afterall there are numerous bilateral agreements. If you want to list EFTA, we might as well include OSCE and not detail the countries, afterall EFTA isn't that important any more. -- User:Docu

There are several reasons for creating this box and that it should apply to the four countries included, also Swizerland. The EEA was a treaty negotiated between the EU and EFTA mainly to provide the EFTA countries access to the EU internal market. Swizerland did reject the treaty, as was in their right. However for the other three EFTA signatory parties the EEA treaty is likely more important than EFTA itself today. Creating an EEA box would be kind of ridiculous as the EU countries would be applicable to both, and that the EEA is compatatively less important for the EU countries than vice versa. What the EFTA box does is that it visibly connects those west European countries which are NOT members of the EU. The properties of the EEA is evident and I think that the box could be left unmodified also for Swizerland, but if the feelings are strong about it could equally well be left out. -- Mic 12:31, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

Why do we need a {msg:... for only four countries? Kokiri 14:20, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Maybe it'd be better on Economy of Switzerland. -- User:Docu

Following the suggestions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries, I replaced it with {msg:Europe} + plus a few international organisations. -- User:Docu

What is the reasoning behind directing the country link from the main article to a subarticle? Second, and more importantly, why was this move done just for one country? If there is consensus about a change like this it should be applied universally not unilaterally.-- Mic 10:01, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)

I don't mind if you change Template:EFTA back (which you alreay did), as you made Template:SwissEFTA, but we wouldn't want to add either of them unilaterally here, until we have consensus if it's really desirable to have several footers see (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries, Wikipedia_talk:Page_footers). -- User:Docu

I disagree that EFTA is not important. It is the link between EU and Switzerland, even if Switzerland is not a member of the EEA. All other EFTA countries has a EFTA Template, and it is odd Switzerland doesn't have a {{EFTA}}. Maybe we should make a referendum in best Swiss tradition? ;-) Jakro64 16:33, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There was a long debate at WikiProject countries. I think the result there (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countries#Of_footers_and_Orcs) is now that the solution adopted here (adding the template only to the specialized page, e.g. {NATO} to "Military of .."), is being implemented elsewhere. -- User:Docu

Neutrality needs fixing?

I feel that the paragraph about wartime neutrality does not itself read in a very neutral fashion, and the bit about other countries and their neutrality does not, with all due respect, feel to me as if it belongs in this article, though it should perhaps be part of one elsewhere. But I'd be pleased to hear other views. Nevilley 19:46, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It is/was a central concept and there could easily be several articles about it, but it's hard to decide how much detail (e.g. about Venezuela) is to be included in the summary here. If you feel like fixing it, go ahead. -- User:Docu

I have removed this bit, it's currently at Talk:History of Switzerland. IMHO there's room for this extra information in the extended article of the Swiss history, but I fail to see how this is relevant in the general article on Switzerland.

I removed this from the sentence on neutrality: and they did trade with all non US-allies during the World Wars, such as the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, selling large quantities of munitions (they are not the only ones who did this).

It doesn't make sense. The USSR was a US ally in the war and how did Swiss munitions get to Japan? Rmhermen 22:09, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)

Country name in Latin

Should the official name of the country, at one time set in Latin (to avoid debates which is the best version), be included in the table? BTW which other local versions are to be included? -- User:Docu

Maybe we should only have the Latin in big bold? At the moment the other languages seem to be in alphabetical order by language. Maybe it'd be more appropriate to have them sorted by size of local language (i.e. German, French, Italian, Romansh)? - admin.ch does this, too. Or alphabetically by local name? Kokiri 09:19, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorting in line with "Official languages:" would be fine. Could save us the language names in the header cell as well. Latin needs probably some explication, probably not just in the table, but also in the article itself. BTW what has been used as a source for the Italian and Rumantsh versions (recently changed). -- User:Docu

Actually, according to WP:Countries only local language names should be included. Once the Latin removed, the remaining are explained with the "official language" list further below, thus I suggest we use a caption with just the four official ones. -- User:Docu

Map

I replaced Image:Sz-map.jpg with Image:Map-of-Switzerland.png. -- User:Docu

I have replaced the CIA map in the Geography section with my own upload. I'm aware that the new map is quite large, but it's got a few more details (that makes me wonder whether it is in the right place). For comments on the map itself, please use my talk page. Kokiri 16:36, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I tried to arrange the two differently, as they don't stack easily. -- User:Docu

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to remove <br clear=all>, in some resolution, the map gets placed beside the next section's header. -- User:Docu

Repeating information of table in article

It seems logical that the summary table repeats information included in the article, especially as there isn't much space to provide a lot of detail in the table. - User:Docu

The language of the official name in big bold letters is well explained in the introduction in its own paragraph, relatively at the same location horizontally as that of the name in the Info box.

The official name is not in Latin. -- User:Docu

Uses include(d) coins, passports, www.admin.ch, seals. Thus "internally" may not accurately describe it. -- User:Docu

Also please explain your reverts, specially your removal of spaces in the Info Box.

--Cantus 06:32, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Which space are you missing? Why are you using three tables instead of one? -- User:Docu

BTW The initial |- in the table is redundant. -- User:Docu

Municipalities in the Canton of Vaud

There is a new series of pages that could be converted into (more extensive) stubs, it can be found with Municipalities_of_the_canton_of_Vaud. -- User:Docu

Official Languages in Switzerland

As far as I know, only German, French and Italian are considered official languages. Rhaeto-Rumantsch is a national language, as the other three as well. This can also be read in the following article, extracted from: http://www.swissworld.org/eng/index.html?siteSect=601&sid=4059003&rubricId=14010

"Language rights

Language rights are enshrined in the Swiss constitution. German, French, Italian and Rhaeto-Rumantsch all have the status of national languages, but only the first three are official languages. Nevertheless, Rumantsch is used in official communications with Rumantsch speakers, who in turn have the right to use their native language in addressing the central authorities."

Posted by marcelo_schlindwein@yahoo.com

Is this before or after 1999? Is it about "Official Languages" or official languages ? -- User:Docu

Sorry! I've been reading some old stuff... I checked this information at the CIA-Factbook (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html) and admit you are right.--Mschlindwein 16:49, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

About demographics/languages: I think it doesn't make sense to put percentages that don't add up to 100%. I suggest to add: "Others 9%"

Name in French

Isn't it confédération helvétique?

No, according to http://www.admin.ch/ch/index.fr.html Schutz 03:38, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Heads of State & Gov't

The text of this page's article makes no mention of a head of government (the prime minister in, i think, all countries that have one; the same person as the head of state in many countries that have no PM.) Swiss Federal Council mentions the term head of gov't only in placing itself in Category:Heads of government. If the SFC is collective head of gov't as well as of state, the article should say so; if not, that article should forgo that category tag. --Jerzy (t) 05:52, 2004 Aug 18 (UTC)

Swiss Federal Council could use some expansion .. Anyways, Head of Government is not the Federal Chancellor. -- User:Docu

Republic?

Switzerland is one of the world's oldest, surviving republics. This is very misleading. First of all, Switzerland is not officially a republic, but rather a federation, so if anything, the individual cantons would be among the world's oldest republics. More importantly, the 1291 business is more of a national myth than real history. In any case, there is no direct connection of the present state with republics that may or may not have existed in the 14th and 15th century. Switzerland as a sovereign state goes back to 1848 and as such is of the same age as most European nation states. If nobody objects, I will change the text to reflect this. dab 17:19, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Seconded. That's small potatoes, though, compared to Letter_of_Alliance which embarrassingly claims that On 1 August 1291 the Eternal Alliance was formed, uniting Switzerland. Said letter is now widely believed to be fake, and whatever it united, it sure wasn't Switzerland.Rl 17:56, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

indeed! I have immediately changed that. It's also a bit much to have an english translation of the entire letter. It would be a better place to discuss the authenticity of the thing. dab 18:42, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Good job. I don't mind having the entire letter there, it is on-topic and disk space is cheap.Rl 19:08, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

District (Swiss)

I've started translating de:Bezirk (Schweiz) to produce this temporary article, and plan to put it into the article namespace, but not until more of the redlinks have also been translated. It'll take me some time... -Wikibob | Talk 20:49, 2004 Oct 3 (UTC)

Infobox for villages, towns, etc.

There seems to be an infobox in preparation (Template:Infobox_Swiss_town):

[[Template:Infobox Swiss town]]

I'm not sure if it's part of WikiProject Swiss municipalities (an inactive sister project of WikiProject Swedish municipalities). Maybe they will help the many municipality mini-stubs for Vaud. -- User:Docu

Better map

Can anybody insert a better map of Switzerland, please? HE, November 2004

Economy - old statistics

This chapter has statistics from 1999, even 1996! Can anybody replace them? Thanks. HE November 2004!

Population and Density Adjusted

Corrected the Population and the Density

Source for the Population is the Federal Statistic Office of Switzerland: www.bfs.admin.ch (http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/bevoelkerung/stand_u_struktur/blank/kennzahlen0/bevoelkerungsstand.html)

Also corrected the % amount of water surface to 4.2 %, wich I also got from the swiss Federal Statistic Office PDF-Document 4th page (http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/die_schweiz_in_ueberblick/taschenstatistik_der_schweiz.ContentPar.0001.DownloadFile.tmp/Taschenstatistik.pdf) --212.254.248.201 01:39, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Infobox

I moved the box to template:Switzerland infobox.--Jerryseinfeld 19:43, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And now someone disabled that.--Jerryseinfeld 21:14, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It may be someone that have made a comment at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#country infoboxes as templates.--Jerryseinfeld 21:44, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Enough already. Guys? How is this template issue worth an edit war? Rl 08:18, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

um, what is this even about? take a step back, people, ffs! dab (ᛏ) 20:54, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Check out the Village pump link above. There are good arguments for both having the Infobox as a template or in the article. IOW, it's a totally stupid revert war over nothing. Obviously, not everybody agrees. Improved template code may eventually make the point moot anyway.Rl 22:44, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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